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Happy Ent

Bakker XXI: Attack of the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People

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Rereading "False Sun", something that I've missed before, its in the "Enter Aurang" scene

The Archidemu Mangaeccu turned to the newcomer as much to conceal his smile as to bask in the glory of his foul image. For he had literally wept upon finding him and his brother, wept for joy, knowing that the two could decipher the horror of what they had seen.

Somehow I was under impression that Inchies were showing everyone the Inverse Fire, "converting" people to their cause, but apparently it was not exactly like that.
My new understanding upon re-reading is:
Sometime in the past three Nonmen, among them Cet'ingira enter the Ark, and see Inverse fire. They actually knew some rumors before going in, and there were no Inchie involvment as far as forcing them or whatever, it was specifically an expedition to check out IF and debunk it I guess.
Two of them get completely mad, Cet'ingira did not got mad, but got convinced that the whole "hiding in places between gods" thing is not working, and Inchies were right all along.
The top nonman Quya at the time, the Artisian upon hearing such herecies seals the Ark with Barricades, so that no other people get infected.
Centuries upon centuries Cet'ingira and his allies try to break the barricades, but only succeed when Shae whos not powerful, but smartish, gets an key insight.
It takes Cet'ingira six days of Canting to break the barricades, he knocks himself out with the final effort.
Shae gets in, and experiences Inverse Fire.

Later they dig out Aurang and Aurax, who were in some kind of suspended animation, in the hopes that they can explain away the Inverse Fire, but Aurang/Aurax actually just confirm it instead, saying only way to avoid it is not to die, and the Consult is born.

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A question, though; why doesn't Kellhus see the Mark on Mek?

He does notice it, but does not think much of it at the time.

Its mentioned later in the scene when Kelthus sees his first skin spy (the emperor's advisor), and he thinks "Surprisingly he did not have the slight air of unreality about him like the Nonmen or Achamian that Kelthus learned to associate with presence of sorcery".

So the hint that Kelthus was one of the Few was given early in the 1st book, but it was a bit subtle.

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Something I've wondered about is why Seswatha went into Golgoterath to steal the Heron Spear before the No-God was even summoned.

There's one hint I can think of.

In one of the flashbacks or dream sequences, someone talks about rumors of what the Consult is working on. I want to say it's Celmomas asking Seswatha something like "So is this thing really not something we need to worry about?" I don't remember it exactly, but I'd love it if someone could dig it up, because your question otherwise seems like a great one.

But if that's right...if it means that Seswatha stole into the Ark because he already knew about the possibility of the No-God...how the Hell did he know? And how would he know that only a laser would work against it?

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TJE, Ch. 6, p237, 2010 Canadian paperback:

This was uncharacteristic. Not the worry, for indecision riddled Celmomas to the core, but the worry's expression. Back then, no one save the Nonmen of Ishterebinth understood the stakes of the war that embroiled them. Back then, "apocalypse" was a word with a different meaning.

Achamian nodded in Seswatha's slow and deliberate way. "You mean the No-God," he said with a small laugh - a laugh! Even for Seswatha, that name had been naught but a misgiving, more abstraction than catastrophe.

How did one relive such ancient ignorance?

...

"What if this... this thing... is as mighty as the Quya say? What if we are too late?"

"We are not too late."

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If Mek helped Seswatha escape with the Heron Spear, wouldn't that qualify as having fought against the No-God?



Also possible the No-God was always directing the Ichies since before the Ark fell, but was only able to incarnate via the vessel called the Carapace.


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If Mek helped Seswatha escape with the Heron Spear, wouldn't that qualify as having fought against the No-God?

:dunno: Anything qualifies when you're insane. It might make sense if he's the one who informed Seswatha about the No-God and the Heron Spear in the first place, kind of acting like a spy or a double agent. But since he's the one who brought the Mangaecca to Golgoterath it only works if he turned against the consult after hearing about the No-God. That was before he returned back to the consult's side and fought for the No-God... Like I said, the guy is insane. He actually told Seswatha that he loves in TTT, but has to do the things he hate because he's erractic. So he's not pure evil.

Actually, this really goes to show that the simplest explanation are most often the correct ones, Bakker made a mistake.

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Bakker made a mistake.

The correct verbiage in this little community is “Bakker deceived himself” or “Bakker’s readers were not reading the text carefully enough.”

There are no mistakes when there are no readers left.

(Yes, I’m rambling.)

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:dunno: Anything qualifies when you're insane. It might make sense if he's the one who informed Seswatha about the No-God and the Heron Spear in the first place, kind of acting like a spy or a double agent. But since he's the one who brought the Mangaecca to Golgoterath it only works if he turned against the consult after hearing about the No-God. That was before he returned back to the consult's side and fought for the No-God... Like I said, the guy is insane. He actually told Seswatha that he loves in TTT, but has to do the things he hate because he's erractic. So he's not pure evil.

Actually, this really goes to show that the simplest explanation are most often the correct ones, Bakker made a mistake.

HWA, in which book did Mek make the claim?

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The claim that he hates the things he does? In TTT.





“I am an Erratic,” Mekeritrig was saying. “I do that which I hate, I raise my heart to the lash, so that I might remember! Do you understand what this means? You are my children!”


...



“Though I love, I will upend your soul’s foundation! I will release you from the delusions of this word ‘Man,’ and draw forth the beast—the soulless beast!—that is the howling Truth of all things … You will tell me!” The old man coughed, drooled blood. “And I, Seswatha … I will remember!”


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TDTCB Prologue:

I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor ... ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.

I don't see any plot contrivance in Mek's actions in letting Kell go. The fight was already memorable, which was Mek's only goal (as far as we know), so there was no need to kill him.

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So maybe Mek just went nuts a few times and started fighting Sranc when he should have be fighting with them. Then he saw the Whirlwind behind the Consult legions and remembered why he was there.



Not convinced Bakker made a mistake here.


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So maybe Mek just went nuts a few times and started fighting Sranc when he should have be fighting with them. Then he saw the Whirlwind behind the Consult legions and remembered why he was there.

Not convinced Bakker made a mistake here.

Yeah, and it seems like most of the time when we think we've caught a mistake we end up finding a way out of it or at least a plausible one.

And the other mindf*ck is this prophet of the past thing...like...the story seems to be turning towards telling us that some of what we've been told was off.

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Yeah, and it seems like most of the time when we think we've caught a mistake we end up finding a way out of it or at least a plausible one.

And the other mindf*ck is this prophet of the past thing...like...the story seems to be turning towards telling us that some of what we've been told was off.

It just seems like there were a lot of battles fought even after the No-God arose. It seems more than possible Mek regained enough of his old personality to switch sides at least once.

And yeah, there is a lot of accepted stuff that will be overturned before the story ends.

Curious how many mysteries remain after TUC.

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I think it's useful to post what he said here, Men v. Nonmen (2004):

I can recap and clarify the info that's been given so far: the Nonmen are an ancient race, the 'original people' of Earwa, who are nearly immortal, and who fought both for and against the No-God during the Apocalypse. They are slowly going insane: their minds can only hold roughly four or five human lifetimes of experiences, and as the centuries pass the traumatic experiences they suffer crowd out their other memories, until now, almost all Nonmen remember only the pain and loss in their lives. And some, like the Nonman (Mekertrig) that Kellhus meets in the Prologue, have taken to creating traumatic experiences just so they can have something to remember...


It's interesting that he uses almost the same phrase to say that Nonmen in general fought for and against the No-God during the apocalypse. He's probably saying that some Nonmen fought for the No-God and others against him. But it could have different implications if what Mek said to Kellhus in the prologue is really a mistake or something that was changed in later books (not that I think this is likely).

Yeah, and it seems like most of the time when we think we've caught a mistake we end up finding a way out of it or at least a plausible one.

To try and settle as much of these issues as possible, is there any explanation for why the skin spy took Geshrunni's face to impersonate him?

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To try and settle as much of these issues as possible, is there any explanation for why the skin spy took Geshrunni's face to impersonate him?

To look at and practice?

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:dunno: Anything qualifies when you're insane. It might make sense if he's the one who informed Seswatha about the No-God and the Heron Spear in the first place, kind of acting like a spy or a double agent. But since he's the one who brought the Mangaecca to Golgoterath it only works if he turned against the consult after hearing about the No-God. That was before he returned back to the consult's side and fought for the No-God... Like I said, the guy is insane. He actually told Seswatha that he loves in TTT, but has to do the things he hate because he's erractic. So he's not pure evil.

Actually, this really goes to show that the simplest explanation are most often the correct ones, Bakker made a mistake.

I don't know, I think you made a good case for it actually.

It's not that far fetched to think that he broke down somehow, released Seswatha, and let him escape with the Heron Spear, especially given that he seemed conflicted when he tortured Seswatha and he was a friend of his in the past IIRC.

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He probably took Geshrunni's face so that if the skin spy took over his identity at some point their would not be a body for the authorities to find, it was only discovered by a fisherman in the delta who happened to inform the Scarlett Spires of its existence and they surmised that it was Geshrunni. With is chorea in hand he could easily assume his identity if the Consult wished it.


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He probably took Geshrunni's face so that if the skin spy took over his identity at some point their would not be a body for the authorities to find, it was only discovered by a fisherman in the delta who happened to inform the Scarlett Spires of its existence and they surmised that it was Geshrunni. With is chorea in hand he could easily assume his identity if the Consult wished it.

Didn't they just not want any chance of people noticing that there were two people with the same face?

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