Bakker XXI: Attack of the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People

[Sci-2]

I think you have the right of it HE. There was a comment I wished I'd saved that was very specific on the consciousness of the No God, to which Bakker replied "Very Astute."

IIRC it was pretty much saying what you did about the No God being unable to apprehend consciousness.

[Anatúrinbor]

Who came up with the name No-God for him (in the story)? And why?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Disciple of the Dog > Neuropath. But both are worth reading (and buying!) for fans of Bakker. The Argument is helpful in understanding Bakker's construction of the Dunyain and their goals, but he does get really heavy-handed with it.

DotD was fun but as I recall still had some depth to it - I don't remember much about it, to be honest, except that there was a scene with an old lady on life support that I never understood, even though it was supposed to be important.

[lokisnow]

I don't think you can forget about damnation once you've seen the IF, even for a short period of time. It really does work like a possession. At least that's what I got from Shaeonanra's POV.

I don't think you can forget about the Consult once you've grasped the heart, even for a short period of time. It really does work like a possession. At least that's what I got from Achamian's POV.

[Anatúrinbor]

I don't think you can forget about the Consult once you've grasped the heart, even for a short period of time. It really does work like a possession. At least that's what I got from Achamian's POV.

I'm not sure what the point is...

[lokisnow]

Just reinforcing my belief that the Inverse Fire and Seswatha's Heart are suspiciously similar.

But I mean, Seswatha wouldn't climb to tallest point of the world and steal (inverse) Fire from the (no) God, now would he?

[Francis Buck]

Who came up with the name No-God for him (in the story)? And why?

Well, presumably the Consult came up with the name. As to why, that's up for debate, since we don't really know what the No-God even is yet. My guess is that it's because the No-God is antithetical to God both literally and figuratively. God symbolizes beginnings, creation, infinity, has all the answers, etc., while the No-God symbolizes the end (apocalypse), destruction, nothingness, and has no answers, instead it literally is asking questions about itself. The No-God is virtually the supreme opposite of what God is typically defined as.

[lokisnow]

The No God Mog Pharau the Angel of Endless Hunger. and something the Scylvendi call him I can't remember.

[Werthead]

Mog-Pharau in Ancient Kuniuric, Tsurumah in Ancient Kyranean, Lokung ("Dead-God") to the Scylvendi, Mursiris ("Wicked North") to the Shiradi. Cara-Sincurimoi ("Angel of Endless Hunger") to the Nonmen. "Great Ruiner" to the tribes of Men in the Ancient North. As "World-Breaker" in general.

[Francis Buck]

Scylvendi name for him is Lokung, and a few others include Tsurumah and The Great Ruiner (and possibly the Black Heaven, although that also seems to be a name for both oblivion and outer space).

ETA: Wert got it.

[Gaston de Foix]

Re-read the Prince of Nothing and now reading the Warrior-Prophet. Quick question; what is Chanv? Is it Qirri made from human flesh? Or Sranc?

[Rhom]

Re-read the Prince of Nothing and now reading the Warrior-Prophet. Quick question; what is Chanv? Is it Qirri made from human flesh? Or Sranc?

No one knows, but speculation is it could be the salted remains of sorcerers.

[unJon]

To jump backwards on topics, I think people saying that Mek fighting against the nogod equates too him killing some sranc here and there have it dead wrong. We see how erratics work and what could be more memorable to Mek than betraying the Consult and really switching sides? We see him at the wall of pain with Ses. He had opportunity to free Ses and we know Ses somehow became free and got the Heron Spear. I think there are plenty of signs that Mek could have turned in a big way. By modern times we know he's just kind of wandering by himself in the wilderness of the North where he runs into Kelhus. We have no reason to think that he's currently in any inner circle of Consult decision makers.

[Anatúrinbor]

I thought he meant that he was so old that he fought for and against the No-God.

I'm starting to think that it's actually likely to be a mistake. Bakker said the exact same thing about all Nonmen at that time as it has been pointed out earlier in the thread. If what he meant by it is that some nonmen fought for and others against Mog, then that's really odd phrasing because both Men and Nonmen fought for and against the No-God in that sense.

The other one about Geshrunni's face is almost certainly a mistake in my mind. There are a thousand ways of hiding a body or making it unrecognizable, but to have a character remove the face of another right before they assume their identity, and in a later book it turns out that he didn't really have to take his face is not the best way to go about it. What's the point? To deliberately confuse the reader? Or is this something that Bakker changed when he realized that he needed the skin spies to take on characters that had to stay alive?

[Anatúrinbor]

Mog-Pharau in Ancient Kuniuric, Tsurumah in Ancient Kyranean, Lokung ("Dead-God") to the Scylvendi, Mursiris ("Wicked North") to the Shiradi. Cara-Sincurimoi ("Angel of Endless Hunger") to the Nonmen. "Great Ruiner" to the tribes of Men in the Ancient North. As "World-Breaker" in general.

Yeah, those names are understandable. The "No-God" is the odd one out IMO. It sounds like something Bakker would come up with (or the consult, since they're the ones who truly know what he is) but not the people who faced him.

[Melphis Amekia]

I have re-read The Prince of Nothing books and read the 2 atrocity tales, currently re-reading TJE. I think I understood the books a bit better now and that they are even more awesome than I remembered.

Anyway, my question is - what are the '4 revelations of Cinial'jin' from the title of the short story? I read it twice and I can't come to any conclusion. The way it ended also seems like there's another part of it which has not been put on the internet.

Also the Inverze Fire. The thing that bugs me is that from what I gathered what Sheonarra said is that it shows you that if you had to bet betwen yourself being damned or being saved - you should bet on the former since it's so much more possible. What has driven the Inchoroi then to do everything they've done to save their souls since just about every religion everywhere is about this - to save themselves. The only thing I can guess is that it showed a damnation so horrid that they would kill the whole world to avoid it.

The 'No-God' name does stand out. It seems too... laconic and blank, like it is what it is. It is like you have a painting of classical art and so many ways to describe it's beauty(for most of the world) and a painting of art that is completely rejecting the way classics are painted and inverzes them and then so many ways to describe it's beauty(for those who like it).

[Sci-2]

The only thing I can guess is that it showed a damnation so horrid that they would kill the whole world to avoid it.

But it's likely the Inchies also had been rewired to not feel compassion before they learned of their damnation.

That's why it's curious Shae and the human consult also feel this deadening of compassion. It makes them perfectly in line with the Inchies' goals. Makes me wonder if the IF is a goad more than a revelation.

[Madness]

Anyway, my question is - what are the '4 revelations of Cinial'jin' from the title of the short story? I read it twice and I can't come to any conclusion. The way it ended also seems like there's another part of it which has not been put on the internet.

For my money, it is the memories of the deaths of his family (wife, two sons, and daughter) as Cinial'jin is being burned by the townspeople then tortured by someone who may or may not be Conphas pre-PON.

[Happy Ent]

Here’s my best attempt at what the four revelations are. It can’t be right, because 1 seems to be the same as 2. Also, I have no idea what 4 means. Any help appreciated.

Quotes are directly from the story.

1

For the first time he realizes he has never understood Men, the way they toil against the yoke of dwindling years. The way they do not so much fail as are betrayed.

2

And he realizes he has never understood Men, not even when he loved them.

3

He experiences another revelation, that agony is the root, the very truth of sensation, for the blades of the grasses had become knives, and the clicking legs of the spider had become needles, and the wind burns with a perpetual fire.

4

A final revelation. Sunlight cracking through spanning limbs. The whole mountain wheezes for the weeping of thousands, the wreckage of… The breeze burning, eating. The world tipping.

No.

A bare palm against a cherished back–

[Melphis Amekia]

Sci - Mangaecca so hungered for knowledge they were already without scruples. With finding Aurang - an Inchoroi who had managed to seduce Kelhuss for a few seconds even as a Synthese - I guess it could push them through boundaries much easily to become as compassionless as the Inchoroi. The Inverse Fire just makes them even worse.

I am not sure I follow you, Madness, why that Man could be Conphas. How? I mean, now that you wrote that, I could see those characteristics in the Man, but still. The revelations may be what you say or what Happy Ent says, but this baffles me.