Bakker XXI: Attack of the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People

[Sci-2]

D'oh.

But it is a good point. To say someone is deluded by their belief is to say someone is in some capacity insane. [Which in Earwa suggests opening the Inward to the Outside.]

I wonder if Bakker will leave us with the duality of the Inward and Outside, given that's, AFAIK, philosophically unsound. If Matter emerges from Mind it would make things like the IF - a creation of the Tekne that interacts with the Outside - more understandable.

[Anatúrinbor]

The wiki says that Yatwer is a POV in the WLW... Could someone point me to the chapter where that happens?

the IF - a creation of the Tekne that interacts with the Outside - more understandable.

Are there any theories about how the Inchoroi created the IF? If it was created using the Tekne, then could they have used someone like Mimara and somehow extracted the JE out of her?

[Sci-2]

The wiki says that Yatwer is a POV in the WLW... Could someone point me to the chapter where that happens?

I'm confident this never happens.

Are there any theories about how the Inchoroi created the IF? If it was created using the Tekne, then could they have used someone like Mimara and somehow extracted the JE out of her?

My guess is that the Tekne is all about digging into the fabric of the universe, and if you go past the subatomic into the quantum you find the Outside.

The other possibility is that the IF is nothing more than a topos where the Inward has fallen completely into the Outside. The Tekne may simply provide protection so Hell doesn't spill over.

[Madness]

The wiki says that Yatwer is a POV in the WLW... Could someone point me to the chapter where that happens?

Don't have my books on me. But when Sorweel and Porsparian go into the Sranc mounds after the Battle of the Horde so Sorweel can kill Porsparian (killing the slaves order), Yatwer rises as a collection of corpses. It's an entire italicized section where She gives Sorweel the antique pouch, which hides a Chorae within.

[Francis Buck]

Yeah, that sequence is definitely up for debate. I interpreted it as being the stork's "POV", with the implication that Yatwer sees into the world through the bird's eyes, but I wouldn't describe that as truly being written from Yatwer's perspective. We're not seeing into her head or getting her thoughts, nor do I think such a thing would even make sense, given how the Gods have been described thus far.

[Sci-2]

Yeah, that sequence is definitely up for debate. I interpreted it as being the stork's "POV", with the implication that Yatwer sees into the world through the bird's eyes, but I wouldn't describe that as truly being written from Yatwer's perspective. We're not seeing into her head or getting her thoughts, nor do I think such a thing would even make sense, given how the Gods have been described thus far.

Why a stork?

I just figured it was Sorweel's POV, but time-space is getting wobbly as Yatwer makes the skeleton Her avatar.

[Francis Buck]

Why a stork in that scene, or why a stork in general? There's a stork present as that scene unfolds, and we suddenly segue into a POV that's outside of the other characters. If you mean in general, then I presume because storks have an association with birth, and they're already considered holy, so it's not a big jump to assume that Yatwer uses them as a method of seeing into the world (I think holy animals are special in that way; it's why snakes are used by the Cishaurim -- perhaps holy animals have souls?).

[lokisnow]

The wiki says that Yatwer is a POV in the WLW... Could someone point me to the chapter where that happens?

American Edition Hardcover of White Luck Warrior, Chapter 10, near the end, page 332: The Gift of the Chorae

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Madness - That's a really interesting point about Moe deceiving Kell. It follows pretty well on something I noted a few threads back when I did my TTT reread - that is, Moe allows Kellhus to deceive himself through that entire conversation. Kellhus never even considers that his father might be lying.

- He lies about the Thousandfold Thought as you mention

- He lies about the timeline of the Holy War and the discovery of skin-spies, or at least does not correct Kellhus's error in judgment. (For those who weren't reading then or who don't recall, Kell asserts that Moe found the first skin-spies 12 years before the Holy War, leading to the war with the Spires, but according to Aurang's POV in either TWP or TTT, their spies have been removed from Shimeh for "decades"

So, the implication here is twofold:

1. The shape of the Holy War, including the participation of the Spires and very likely Kellhus's transformation into a prophet (genuine or otherwise), was orchestrated by Moenghus to a greater degree than Kell realizes. For example, Kell believes that the Cish/Spire war arose due to the discovery of the skin-spies, but since he is wrong about the timing, it seems likely that Moe set the whole thing up with the specific purpose of goading the Spires into open war, probably to ensure that the War had the firepower to fight the Cish, and also maybe to destroy or weaken the School until it is no longer a threat to Kell.

2. The purpose of the Holy War was not to simply unite Kian with the rest of the Three Seas, but to create a new god-figure with the power to unite them all on a very deep level. Since Moe knows the primary issue is religion, he sets events in motion to create a new religion that everyone can follow, knowing that would be more effective than simply causing one religion to gain ascendency.

Pain, to answer your other question, Moe doesn't inform all of the Dunyain because A. given what we currently know, they wouldn't believe him anyway since they do not study history or believe the ancient myths (if they know of them at all), B. he has a much more complex plan in place already, C. he fears that the Dunyain would join the Consult. Maybe other reasons too, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

[Anatúrinbor]

American Edition Hardcover of White Luck Warrior, Chapter 10, near the end, page 332: The Gift of the Chorae

Thanks, I found it. Probably thought it was Sorweel's the first time around (I thought he was more likely to think "One more dead skinny." than she is), only now I noticed the present tense there.

[Shryke]

The narrative itself asserts through Kellhus that Moenghus couldn't see past the Circumfixion (I'm of the opinion that this isn't true, that Moenghus knew the unfolding at least until the coronation of Kellhus as Aspect-Emperor. Especially as Maithanet as Shriah has little actual power to confer a dead legal title on Kellhus that awards him actual control of say, Kian and Nansur, which are the only two realms that Kellhus has undisputed rule at the end of TTT).

From SA:

In The World Conspires thread we were discussing the coincidences, a little, that led Kellhus to Skiotha's mound. That aside.

"I bear a message from your Father. He says, 'You walk the Shortest Path. Soon you will grasp the Thousandfold Thought.'" p.579, TWP

"Sooner or later the caste-nobility had to move against you. Crisis was inevitable ... This," the eyeless face said, "was where the Probability Trance failed me..." p.338, TTT LE

"How," his father finally said, "could you know this?"

"Because I know why you were compelled to summon me."

Scrutiny. Calculation.

"So you have grasped it."

"Yes ... the Thousandfold Thought." p. 340, TTT LE

Moenghus lied to Kellhus in TTT and Kellhus seems deceived by this.

"His father, Kellhus realized, had finally grasped the principles of this encounter. Moenghus had assumed his son would be the one requiring instruction. He had not foreseen it as possible, let alone inevitable, that the Thousandfold Thought would outgrow the soul of its incubation - and discard it." p.374, TTT LE

Except it seems the Conditioned Ground was Moenghus' that day. In TWP, he explicitly lets his son know that he will grasp the Thousandfold Thought but then, in the conversation in TTT, he does not mention it until Kellhus does, even though he knows Kellhus has indeed grasped the Thought.

Then there is the snake issue. Why would Moenghus not have his snakes, if not due to premeditation?

I'm not sure why you think that quote proves what you are mentioning or why you think Maithanet's position as Shriah doesn't have the power to confer the title of Aspect-Emperor.

And where's the evidence of a lie there?

Madness - That's a really interesting point about Moe deceiving Kell. It follows pretty well on something I noted a few threads back when I did my TTT reread - that is, Moe allows Kellhus to deceive himself through that entire conversation. Kellhus never even considers that his father might be lying.

- He lies about the Thousandfold Thought as you mention

- He lies about the timeline of the Holy War and the discovery of skin-spies, or at least does not correct Kellhus's error in judgment. (For those who weren't reading then or who don't recall, Kell asserts that Moe found the first skin-spies 12 years before the Holy War, leading to the war with the Spires, but according to Aurang's POV in either TWP or TTT, their spies have been removed from Shimeh for "decades"

That's not really a lie or a falsehood though. It's just a lack of specificity in the term "decades" vs Kellhus' potential just setting a lower bound on the timeline.

Moenghus was thrown out around 30 years ago so, assuming travel time and moving up the ranks and such, decades is a fancy way of saying "somewhere near 20" on Aurang's part.

So, the implication here is twofold:

1. The shape of the Holy War, including the participation of the Spires and very likely Kellhus's transformation into a prophet (genuine or otherwise), was orchestrated by Moenghus to a greater degree than Kell realizes. For example, Kell believes that the Cish/Spire war arose due to the discovery of the skin-spies, but since he is wrong about the timing, it seems likely that Moe set the whole thing up with the specific purpose of goading the Spires into open war, probably to ensure that the War had the firepower to fight the Cish, and also maybe to destroy or weaken the School until it is no longer a threat to Kell.

But that's exactly what you assume based on Kellhus not being wrong too. Or close enough. There is no difference in what Moenghus is up to here. Even if the discrepancy you mention exists, it doesn't actually change this part because it just means Moenghus has more time to orchestrate the Holy War. Which we already know he's behind anyway.

2. The purpose of the Holy War was not to simply unite Kian with the rest of the Three Seas, but to create a new god-figure with the power to unite them all on a very deep level. Since Moe knows the primary issue is religion, he sets events in motion to create a new religion that everyone can follow, knowing that would be more effective than simply causing one religion to gain ascendency.

But again, that's what we already assumed.

Pain, to answer your other question, Moe doesn't inform all of the Dunyain because A. given what we currently know, they wouldn't believe him anyway since they do not study history or believe the ancient myths (if they know of them at all), B. he has a much more complex plan in place already, C. he fears that the Dunyain would join the Consult. Maybe other reasons too, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Moenghus doesn't tell them for the simple reason that attempting to recruit the Dunyain would destroy them. In that it would completely derail, probably forever, the project to create a self-moving soul. And if he remains still Dunyain, that's what he cares about.

[lokisnow]

The Probability Trance failed Moenghus when it would encounter the Circumfixion. That's why he did the Thousand Fold Thought, to go beyond it. TTT did not fail to go past the Circumfixion.

[Shryke]

The Probability Trance failed Moenghus when it would encounter the Circumfixion. That's why he did the Thousand Fold Thought, to go beyond it. TTT did not fail to go past the Circumfixion.

Where does this come from?

[lokisnow]

A better question would be, where does the idea that The Thousandfold Thought failed Moenghus at the Circumfix come from?

The clean-shaven face leaned into the uncertain light. It seemed a grinning skull through the veiling water.

“That they would make you their Prophet.

“But even this wasn’t enough,” the lips continued. “Those without authority lost nothing by inserting you between them and their Gods, for they already yielded their actions to others. Servitude is the most instinctive of habits. But those with authority … To rule in the name of an absent king is to rule outright. Sooner or later the caste-nobility had to move against you. Crisis was inevitable …”

Moënghus stood, pale, indistinct, like a vapour exhaled by the earth. He stepped beneath the spouting eyes. For a moment water sluiced about his figure, then he was clear, dripping, standing eye to socket with his son, naked save for his sodden loincloth.

Pubic curls darkened the linen. Steam coiled about his beaded skin.

“This,” the eyeless face said, “was where the Probability Trance failed me …”

[Rhom]

Will readily admit that I had forgotten "the pubic curls."

Pretty sure it's that level of detail that gets these works scoffed at when viewed individually.

[Sci-2]

Quick aside:

Roger's put up revised chapters for his own fantasy novel on Bakker's blog.

Worth a look IMO.

[Armitage]

A better question would be, where does the idea that The Thousandfold Thought failed Moenghus at the Circumfix come from?

The Thousandfold Thought didn't fail Moënghus at the Circumfix, precisely. But he couldn't see any way that Kellhus could face off against the caste-nobility and win. (Winning, in this case, would mean unquestioned leadership of a Holy War that's still strong enough to defeat the Fanim).

Kellhus's solution was to get himself acclaimed a true prophet; this required manipulating the nobility into first declaring him a false prophet, which in turn depended on conditioning Serwë to proclaim him a true one at just the right moment. And, on the other end, he had to condition Achamian and Cnaiür to trigger the chain of events that led to his deliverance from the Circumfix. It's a ridiculously complex plot, and one that depended on the behavior of several particular individuals known to Kellhus but not his father. Moënghus's Probability Trance couldn't have incorporated those specific people. Perhaps Cnaiür, and maybe he would have accounted for a generic Mandate Schoolman, but Serwë?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Sci - who is this Roger person?

[Sci-2]

Sci - who is this Roger person?

Sorry, for some reason I thought he might be known in these parts. Roger Eichorn aka Delvagus is a guy who (IIRC) Bakker had met on some online writer's workshop who also studies philosophy.

The guy has made some posts about philosophy on Bakker's blog and is working on a medieval fantasy novel involving time travel and parallel worlds.

[Shryke]

A better question would be, where does the idea that The Thousandfold Thought failed Moenghus at the Circumfix come from?

From the quote right there certainly.

But also from Kellhus' own issues trying to grasp the TTT and get around the Circumfix. It's probably easier to clarify at the same time as answering the post below:

The Thousandfold Thought didn't fail Moënghus at the Circumfix, precisely. But he couldn't see any way that Kellhus could face off against the caste-nobility and win. (Winning, in this case, would mean unquestioned leadership of a Holy War that's still strong enough to defeat the Fanim).

Kellhus's solution was to get himself acclaimed a true prophet; this required manipulating the nobility into first declaring him a false prophet, which in turn depended on conditioning Serwë to proclaim him a true one at just the right moment. And, on the other end, he had to condition Achamian and Cnaiür to trigger the chain of events that led to his deliverance from the Circumfix. It's a ridiculously complex plot, and one that depended on the behavior of several particular individuals known to Kellhus but not his father. Moënghus's Probability Trance couldn't have incorporated those specific people. Perhaps Cnaiür, and maybe he would have accounted for a generic Mandate Schoolman, but Serwë?

No, not quite correct. AFAIK anyway. You are missing the key point here about the climax of TWP. Kellhus doesn't plan the whole thing out at all. He has no idea what will happen. He sort of bends the odds in his favour, but the whole challenge that confronts him for the entirety of the end of TWP is that the probability trance cannot see a way past the circumfix (or, more specifically, the crisis it represents).

Kellhus knows he must become a living prophet (end point) and he knows where he is now (a large group of loyal followers but with alot of pushback from the unconverted and especially the nobility). The path from A to B leads straight to the Circumfix but ends there. That's what they mean when they talk about the Probability Trance failing. It cannot see a way to resolve this crisis. Without passing the circumfix, he can't ascend to universally acclaimed prophethood but he also can't see a way to survive it.

So he decides to roll the dice on the whole thing. He doesn't survive because he uses the logos to find the way out of the trap, he survives because of a miracle.

It's a big part of his whole arc in TWP as it all leads to his breaking on the circumfix. From the moment he unintentionally seems to speak prophecy to his having to rely on luck instead of the probability trance to his crying on the circumfix to his miracle of the heart-from-the-anus that unites the Holy War behind him.