Bakker XXI: Attack of the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Sci - I don't think we can definitively state that all Dunyain have Anasurimbor blood. We have no idea how large their population is, now how many original Dunyain there were. Not saying you're wrong, but I think it would be wrong to make that assumption.

[Francis Buck]

Going by real world rules, it's physically impossible that all of the Dunyain don't have Anasurimbor blood (their initial population would have to be preposterously huge for them not to), unless they somehow intentionally kept that bloodline segregated or something, which doesn't make much sense either given the nature of their breeding program. That being said, this may simply be something Bakker never took into consideration, or it may not really matter in the long run.

[Tears of Lys]

Perhaps. Let me qualify my statement a bit.

It's not that I can't bear the thought of another Dunyain character. It's more like I'm hoping we learn more about how Ishual was run or who the Dunayin were before they found it.

I was really looking forward to Ishual to meet up with some other Dunyain. I was Consult-like in that regard, as in, "Who are the Dunyain?" Alas, it was not to be.

Besides, we know that there can be only one.

[Happy Ent]

Going by real world rules, it's physically impossible that all of the Dunyain don't have Anasurimbor blood (their initial population would have to be preposterously huge for them not to), unless they somehow intentionally kept that bloodline segregated or something, which doesn't make much sense either given the nature of their breeding program. That being said, this may simply be something Bakker never took into consideration, or it may not really matter in the long run.

Agreed. However, note that it is completely plausible that they did intentionally keep that bloodline segregated. The boy they found was a King’s bastard, after all. So let’s just assume that every generation of Dunyain has exactly 10 (or so) Anasurimbors.

We must assume that the Dunyain obsess about lineages just like the Bene Gesserit in Frank Herbert’s Dune. Breeding is all they care about.

Something like this is necessary to rationalise the fact that Kellhus has a last name at all.

(For the record: it’s also completely plausible that RSB just didn’t care.)

Any guesses about the number of Dunyain? Tens of thousands?

[Francis Buck]

I actually wouldn't be surprised if the initial number that arrived at Ishual was relatively small; a few hundred, maybe. Not positive, but I believe the minimum amount of people required to establish a sustainable population is around 160 (80 men, 80 women). I can't remember the exact description from TDTCB, but I don't remember it seeming like there were tons of people outside the gates. I think it's rather vague though, so there could have been a ton.

One thing I've wondered is why exactly the Dunyain were happy to find the Anasurimbor kid (a "fortuitous correspondence of cause"). Did they know something of the Celmomian prophecy, or were they glad because they now had an Anasurimbor gene contributor (implying they knew of the Nonman blood the line possessed, and also the potentially positive affect it could have on their breeding?).

ETA: Or did you mean their numbers at their peak, like around when Kellhus left? It's hard to say in that case. It must be pretty big for them to exist without any outside resources, but it also implies that Ishual must be freaking enormous.

[Happy Ent]

ETA: Or did you mean their numbers at their peak, like around when Kellhus left? It's hard to say in that case. It must be pretty big for them to exist without any outside resources, but it also implies that Ishual must be freaking enormous.

Yes, at their peak. They can work steel, so they must have mining and smithing, for instance. How large was Moria’s Dwarven population under Durin?

(Or, again, RSB just doesn’t care.)

[Anatúrinbor]

Agreed. However, note that it is completely plausible that they did intentionally keep that bloodline segregated. The boy they found was a King’s bastard, after all. So let’s just assume that every generation of Dunyain has exactly 10 (or so) Anasurimbors.

We must assume that the Dunyain obsess about lineages just like the Bene Gesserit in Frank Herbert’s Dune. Breeding is all they care about.

Something like this is necessary to rationalise the fact that Kellhus has a last name at all.

Isn't it true that Moenghus had only one son in Ishual at the time he left? If the Dunyain had intentionally kept that line segregated because it's important and there are no other Anasurimbors, then wouldn't it be very risky to send him out when he has only a very young son?

[Sci-2]

I was really looking forward to Ishual to meet up with some other Dunyain. I was Consult-like in that regard, as in, "Who are the Dunyain?" Alas, it was not to be.

Besides, we know that there can be only one.

Actually, you did give me a thought about when a Dunyain might prove interesting.

Imagine a dying, injured survivor found by Akka and Mim. Someone who has no real chance of living, so how will this alter the domination of circumstance when meeting with the Wizard who knows what they are[?]

Alternatively, they run into a defective with his face pulled off but whose error was found late in the various culling stages. A partially effective Dunyain who is deformed.

Basically, any kind of significantly broken Dunyain would be of interest. Or an arc where my girl Theli fucks up everybody's shit.

[Gaston de Foix]

Isn't it true that Moenghus had only one son in Ishual at the time he left? If the Dunyain had intentionally kept that line segregated because it's important and there are no other Anasurimbors, then wouldn't it be very risky to send him out when he has only a very young son

this got me thinking...did Kellhus have a son in Ishual? If the Dunyain are focused on breeding and do want to preserve the Anasurimbor bloodline (note this may well be because the Nonman blood makes the Anasurimbors better at being Dunyain) then before they sent him out, they might have tried to keep the bloodline by having him impregnate someone.

[Rhom]

this got me thinking...did Kellhus have a son in Ishual? If the Dunyain are focused on breeding and do want to preserve the Anasurimbor bloodline (note this may well be because the Nonman blood makes the Anasurimbors better at being Dunyain) then before they sent him out, they might have tried to keep the bloodline by having him impregnate someone.

If he was 33 when he left, you would think that he ought to have at least one.

[Gaston de Foix]

If he was 33 when he left, you would think that he ought to have at least one.

well then wouldn't Kellhus have sent the Dunyain a sorcerous dream? Send me my son....

[Rhom]

well then wouldn't Kellhus have sent the Dunyain a sorcerous dream? Send me my son....

He knows how well that worked out for Moenghus...

[Sci-2]

If he was 33 when he left, you would think that he ought to have at least one.

It's possible he bred a few, but by the time he likely had the power to destroy Ishual the chance of familial loyalty over loyalty to the mission was negligible.

So he pounded them down into paste like the others.

[Gaston de Foix]

It's possible he bred a few, but by the time he likely had the power to destroy Ishual the chance of familial loyalty over loyalty to the mission was negligible.

So he pounded them down into paste like the others.

He would want his sons for the same reason he seduced Esmenet - they are powerful tools in their own right, and might produce further tools of use. However their Dunyain nature would make them resistant to his conditioning.

[Sci-2]

He would want his sons for the same reason he seduced Esmenet - they are powerful tools in their own right, and might produce further tools of use. However their Dunyain nature would make them resistant to his conditioning.

If they could be brought to heel they could be useful.

But how would he ensure that they would believe he really talks to the God? Look at how he convinced his half-Dunyain children to go along with him - he told them the Dunyain had bred themselves to grasp the Absolute.

So they think he and they have a bloodline closer to the God, and in fact Kellhus is the pinnacle of that breeding program.

That's not going to work with actual Dunyain.

[Anatúrinbor]

He can't risk having someone who can become more powerful than he is around.

If they could be brought to heel they could be useful.

But how would he ensure that they would believe he really talks to the God? Look at how he convinced his half-Dunyain children to go along with him - he told them the Dunyain had bred themselves to grasp the Absolute.

Did he actually say this to any of his children? Some of them found out through Esmenet and she through Achamian IIRC.

I don't think that he needs them to believe that he talks to God, they all know that he's too powerful to mess with.

[Sci-2]

IIRC the whole "breeding to know God" thing is how Serwa explains the Dunyain to Sorweel. And I think she believes it to some extent.

Not to mention Lil' Moe tells Sorweel that of course "Father has grasped the God".

[Anatúrinbor]

IIRC the whole "breeding to know God" thing is how Serwa explains the Dunyain to Sorweel. And I think she believes it to some extent.

She says that her mother told her about the breeding program to grasp the absolute (the God of Gods), but I don't think she believes that her father has actually grasped it. (What does grasping God even mean?)

As to whether the rest of the Dunyain will reappear, I can only hope that it won't happen. "Throwing shit on the wall" might work for one character, but if a bunch of them turn out, I doubt that Bakker would be able to handle it appropriately.

[Gaston de Foix]

IIRC the whole "breeding to know God" thing is how Serwa explains the Dunyain to Sorweel. And I think she believes it to some extent.

Not to mention Lil' Moe tells Sorweel that of course "Father has grasped the God".

This is sort of like Eskele's explanation of Kellhus. Different people interpret him in different ways, and Eskele's is in effect the Mandati understanding.IIRC Inri Sejenus is also described in the glossary of TTT as having a soul the same shape as God's, only smaller.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Happy Ent - Again, I think it is not a stretch to think that mining or smelting and other menial tasks are performed by defectives, so that Ishuäl might have a relatively small population of actual Dunyain and many slaves.