Bakker XXI: Attack of the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People

[lokisnow]

here is the point where Moenghus starts agreeing with Kellhus. Before this Moenghus was not agreeing, he was probing, or contradicting kellhus ('my inference was warrented,' 'these words are mechanisms of control' &c).

The Second Apocalypse, Moënghus said simply.

Only you knew their secret. Only you could detect their spies.

They have to be stopped, Moënghus replied. Destroyed.

Agreement leads to flattery. Agreement deceives. Also of note, all this occurs after the author indicates that Kellhus is wrong (he literally stumbles and trips in the text, whoopsie)

So following this, here are the admissions of weakness and flatteries that Moenghus says to Kellhus to condition Kellhus:

Even still, my summons to you nearly broke me. Ishuäl lies across the world.

You were the only path.

theres nothing more precious than our blood

Only a true son of Ishuäl could succeed

Only one of the Conditioned could follow its path. Only you,; my son

my son

Even you, my son.

my son

my son,

But we, my son,

I think every iteration of my son comes with a description of either the specialness of Dunyain or a litany of the failings of worldborn men--which is just another way of elevating the specialness of the Dunyain. And all the iterations of my son lead to the final "we". And for a moment, Kellhus is taken by Moenghus, is conditioned, does doubt himself.

[Gaston de Foix]

Re: the Few in Ishual that Moe sent the dream to: wasn't he supposed to know them personally? I thought it was stated outright that you can't 'mind-link' to someone you know.

(Maybe I'm confusing the sending of dreams with Akka's conversations with Nautzera.)

I assume the discrepancy arises from the Cishaurim way of doing magic as opposed to the gnostic school.

I have a specific question about the Proyas Dialogues (as they will no doubt be called in future scripture). Can anyone venture a guess as to Kellhus' motives? I assumed he was trying to prepare Proyas as to the consequences of his future assassination. It clearly has more than one purpose though...

[Hello World]

A word on Malazan before this thread ends, it's awesome. Bakker could actually learn from it that giving little clues every now and then and leaving the reader to put them together is better (imo) than his usual Neuropath type info dumps.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I have wondered about the conversations with Proyas as well ... I assume there is very specific purpose there, we just haven't been shown the outcome. I was thinking he is perhaps preparing Proyas for the possibility of his (Kell's) death, or perhaps he is Conditioning him to keep faith even if someone like Akka shows up with irrefutable proof that Kell is a fraud.

Regarding the dream, Gnostic and presumably Anagogic sorcerers have to know the location of the recipient to enter their dreams. So either the Psukhic version of the spell is different in that multiple people receive the dream, Moe targeted multiple people, or it's a GOTMism.

Also, keep in mind that Kellhus himself did not receive the sending. The prologue mentions that it came to the elders and included a large amount of historical and other context, all of which Kellhus lacks when he leaves Ishuäl. Furthermore, in TTT Kellhus, when speaking to his father, mentions the summons going to "those Dunyain you knew before your exile."

[Sci-2]

Furthermore, in TTT Kellhus, when speaking to his father, mentions the summons going to "those Dunyain you knew before your exile."

I figured Big Moe knew where these guys would be sleeping, as I assumed Dunyain were sticklers for routine.

[Castel]

I figured Big Moe knew where these guys would be sleeping, as I assumed Dunyain were sticklers for routine.

How did he figure out the timezone :dunno:

[Gaston de Foix]

I have wondered about the conversations with Proyas as well ... I assume there is very specific purpose there, we just haven't been shown the outcome. I was thinking he is perhaps preparing Proyas for the possibility of his (Kell's) death, or perhaps he is Conditioning him to keep faith even if someone like Akka shows up with irrefutable proof that Kell is a fraud.

i just wanted to list the possibilities of the Proyas dialogues, given what we know of Proyas' character.

1. Groom Proyas for leadership of the Great Ordeal

2. Reconcile Akka and Proyas

3. Groom Proyas for leadership of a post No-God world.

4. Send Proyas to Eanna.

5. Turn Proyas into the No God

6. further thoughts welcome....

[Sci-2]

6. further thoughts welcome....

7. Save Proyas's soul by having him deny Kellhus in his heart.

[Francis Buck]

I think it's likely to be a combination of many things. Preparing Proyas to lead in Kellhus' absence, preparing him to reconcile with Achamian, preparing him to willingly betray Kellhus as an act of faith (which would be yet another parallel from the Dune series), etc.

I don't think Eanna's ever going to become an important part of the main story though. Pretty sure Bakker has implied as much, though I can't remember where the quote is from (possibly one of the Pat's Fantasy Hotlist interviews).

[Hello World]

7. Save Proyas's soul by having him deny Kellhus in his heart.

Why would he care about saving Proyas's soul of all people?

I like the suggestions that it has to do with Achamian, he was his former student after all (unless I've confused him with someone else)...

[Sci-2]

Why would he care about saving Proyas's soul of all people?

Because he feels guilty about damning so many people in the Empire, even if it's necessary. So if he can save one person without fucking up his plan he can feel a bit better.

Though to be honest my real point is Kellhus is a black box and the last PoV we get from him has him either realizing his divinity or fully embracing his delusion. Following that, he has about two decades to think about things or go crazier.

Who knows what he's thinking now?

[Callan S.]

As Kalbear says. They can’t just look at the children, because the children don’t bear the Mark.

Instead, they ask them if they can see the Mark. I can imagine easy, game-like tests, such as giving them two toys, identical but for one having been magicked. The child is then asked to pick the same toy after they have been swapped behind somebody’s back. Or something like that. It’s easy-peasy for a Few child and impossible for others, and doesn’t involve any conscious understanding of magic.

(I think there is a flashback scene of Acka’s where he remembers that as a child, he saw the Onta but didn’t know what that meant.)

Though more convoluted, I'm not sure how this is different from my saying schoolmen are able to detect the few? My point was that schoolmen had some kind of method of picking up new members (to horribly condemn to the eternal torture machine).

[Gaston de Foix]

Because he feels guilty about damning so many people in the Empire, even if it's necessary. So if he can save one person without fucking up his plan he can feel a bit better.

Though to be honest my real point is Kellhus is a black box and the last PoV we get from him has him either realizing his divinity or fully embracing his delusion. Following that, he has about two decades to think about things or go crazier.

Who knows what he's thinking now?

I agree. We have little or no insight into his thoughts. So the question then becomes what inferences about his thoughts we can draw from his acts.

Let me pose another question: why did Kellhus travel to Mommen?

1. As a last ditch effort to protect Esmenet against her gathering enemies.

2. To save the New Empire (i.e. his visit, in whatever manner will actually have the effect of saving the New Empire even if we haven't seen it yet).

3. To destroy the New Empire more quickly.

4. To give the appearance to his enemies that he was invested in the success of the New Empire and thereby make it rather than the Great Ordeal ('or him') his target.

5. Because he independently reached the same conclusion as Maithenet (Sharacinth was the key to controlling the Yatwerians) but unlike Maitha had the ability to cow her into submission and thought that would suffice to stave off the destruction of the New Empire. It follows therefore he had not anticipated the role little Celmomas and Ajokli were playing.

6. Because he wanted to understand the dynamics in play between Esmenet and Maitha.

7. Because he wanted to draw out the divine opposition to his purpose, perhaps even deduce the identities of the Gods who were ranged against him and preferred to do it in the New Empire rather than in the Great Ordeal.

8. Other suggestions....

I actually think the best possible insight into Kellhus' thoughts comes from examining his on screen acts in the last two books, as well as figuring out the deeper purpose of the Proyas dialogues.

[Anatúrinbor]

5. Because he independently reached the same conclusion as Maithenet (Sharacinth was the key to controlling the Yatwerians) but unlike Maitha had the ability to cow her into submission and thought that would suffice to stave off the destruction of the New Empire. It follows therefore he had not anticipated the role little Celmomas and Ajokli were playing.

Or he knew that she's not in fact the key to controlling the Yatwerians and wanted to look like he gives a fuck about the empire in front of Esmi before he has his talk with her, which was probably the key to his visit.

[Callan S.]

Because he feels guilty about damning so many people in the Empire, even if it's necessary. So if he can save one person without fucking up his plan he can feel a bit better.

So what's with the scene where Proyas looks into the fire and there some description of bone being pulled from meat? I'd suspected actually that's where Proyas had first run afoul of the eternal torture machine? Or what did the analogy mean?

[Rhom]

Though more convoluted, I'm not sure how this is different from my saying schoolmen are able to detect the few? My point was that schoolmen had some kind of method of picking up new members (to horribly condemn to the eternal torture machine).

So other than the Mandate who are recruiting on a mission to save the world... why do any of the other schools actively recruit people to damnation? Worldly power for their school?

[Francis Buck]

@Callan

I'm pretty sure that was just Bakker's way of describing how strange the experience of scrying was. Kellhus even mentions something like, "It's strange for the soul to be free of space, isn't it?". The description of what Proyas feels is actually somewhat similar to what Sorweel feels when teleporting, if I recall correctly.

[Gaston de Foix]

Or he knew that she's not in fact the key to controlling the Yatwerians and wanted to look like he gives a fuck about the empire in front of Esmi before he has his talk with her, which was probably the key to his visit.

I re-read the talk with her. Are you referring to his statement that the White Luck will break against Esmenet? Or are you referring to any other specific part of their discussion?

Esmenet is not a target of the White Luck. If I understand correctly Kellhus thinks she will be able to destroy the White Luck because she is pure (much as Mimara is pure). This might have something to do with the purpose of the White Luck which is liberation from earthly tyranny.

[Hello World]

I got the sense that Proyas is damned because of the things he did for Kellhus during the unification wars.

Although, I am not sure whether killing gets you damned or not. When Aurang was whining to Kellhus he mentioned "boundaries of skin" specifically, and nothing else.

How do the Inchoroi even know that it's the rape that got them damned by the way?

ETA: Isn't anyone going to start the new thread?

[Gaston de Foix]

Although, I am not sure whether killing gets you damned or not.

Murder damns you- Mimara sees Kosoter with the Judging Eye and sees the fact of his damnation. There is no suggestion of rape, merely murder and cruelty. In fact it may be murder that is the ultimate act of damnation.