Aegon and the Iron Bank Debt

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

As I started before in this thread. We know nothing about the subduing of great Wyk. It could have been as much effort as landing on the Island with the massive army the IT provided, or a prolonged hard campaign or anything in between. I have no idea how you manage to draw conclusions on the competence of Stannis' command based on virtually zero information.

DS surrendered iirc, that's what Dany said.

Yes we don't have enough info on the subduing of Great Wyk, but i highly doubt IB would have gone done without a fight and considering it was the largest of the Iron islands it was a massive job. Stannis didn't have a massive army because at the same time they had Barristan lead the assault on Old Wyk and also had King Robert leading the siege of Pyke.

Nope DS didn't surrender they were staunch targ loyalist, he retook it from then. Hence Stannis was sent to Dragonstone by Robert because they were staunch targ loyalist.

[A Duke]

Yes we don't have enough info on the subduing of Great Wyk, but i highly doubt IB would have gone done without a fight and considering it was the largest of the Iron islands it was a massive job. Stannis didn't have a massive army because at the same time they had Barristan lead the assault on Old Wyk and also had King Robert leading the siege of Pyke.

Nope DS didn't surrender they were staunch targ loyalist, he retook it from then. Hence Stannis was sent to Dragonstone by Robert because they were staunch targ loyalist.

Well, since you have to extrapolate everything starting with IB numbers and willingness to fight, down to their ability to actually do so and the strength of Stannises army I can't really see how a conclusion can be made here.

As for the size of his army, We know that forces from the North, Riverlands and Westerlands were gathered, some Redwyne fleet was used as well as presumably forces from the crownlands and perhaps the Stormlands (since Bob was fighting there as well as Beric). That could be a force of upwards than 100,000. If we're guessing I'd say it makes sense to send the largest force to the largest island. Do we know that the subduing of great Wyk and the other battles were fought simultaneously? I am not certain we can be sure of that.

as for DS (from the wiki):

"Dragonstone's garrison had been prepared to sell Dany and her brother to the Usurper but just before Ser Stannis Baratheon prepared to set-sail to Dragonstone, Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men broke into the nursery one night and stole Dany and her brother, the last scions of House Targaryen, along with Dany's wet nurse, and fled, setting sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast."

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Well, since you have to extrapolate everything starting with IB numbers and willingness to fight, down to their ability to actually do so and the strength of Stannises army I can't really see how a conclusion can be made here.

As for the size of his army, We know that forces from the North, Riverlands and Westerlands were gathered, some Redwyne fleet was used as well as presumably forces from the crownlands and perhaps the Stormlands (since Bob was fighting there as well as Beric). That could be a force of upwards than 100,000. If we're guessing I'd say it makes sense to send the largest force to the largest island. Do we know that the subduing of great Wyk and the other battles were fought simultaneously? I am not certain we can be sure of that.

Battle's were being fought simultaneously and it would make sense from a military perspective. If you are planning to attack a country, a good commander would attack many regions at the same time, so as to divert the home army. This strategy is Offensive 101. Not to mention Robert had Stannis, Randyll, Ned, Jon and Tywin as his advisers. Robert himself would have the largest army since he is the King and was laying siege to the capital of IB, so that makes sense. Barristan would've had also commanded a sizeable force so as the take Old Wyk, so that leaves Stannis to assault the Great Wyk the largest of Iron born Islands. Stannis since would've had a good force but not the biggest, since the biggest would be obviously with the King, not to mention good warriors such Thoros, Beric etc were with him too. Stannis didn't have any famous Knights under him, otherwise someone would've mentioned working under Stannis.

"Dragonstone's garrison had been prepared to sell Dany and her brother to the Usurper but just before Ser Stannis Baratheon prepared to set-sail to Dragonstone, Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men broke into the nursery one night and stole Dany and her brother, the last scions of House Targaryen, along with Dany's wet nurse, and fled, setting sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast."

And from the same page underneath the quote you provided:

I never asked for Dragonstone. I never wanted it. I took it because Robert’s enemies were here and he commanded me to root them out. I built his fleet and did his work, dutifully as a younger brother should be to an elder, as Renly should be to me. And what was Robert’s thanks? He names me Lord of Dragonstone, and gives Storm's End and its incomes toRenly. Storm’s End belonged to the House Baratheon for three hundred years; by rights it should have passed to me when Robert took the Iron Throne.

[A Duke]

Battle's were being fought simultaneously and it would make sense from a military perspective. If you are planning to attack a country, a good commander would attack many regions at the same time, so as to divert the home army. This strategy is Offensive 101. Not to mention Robert had Stannis, Randyll, Ned, Jon and Tywin as his advisers. Robert himself would have the largest army since he is the King and was laying siege to the capital of IB, so that makes sense. Barristan would've had also commanded a sizeable force so as the take Old Wyk, so that leaves Stannis to assault the Great Wyk the largest of Iron born Islands. Stannis since would've had a good force but not the biggest, since the biggest would be obviously with the King, not to mention good warriors such Thoros, Beric etc were with him too. Stannis didn't have any famous Knights under him, otherwise someone would've mentioned working under Stannis.

And from the same page underneath the quote you provided:

I never asked for Dragonstone. I never wanted it. I took it because Robert’s enemies were here and he commanded me to root them out. I built his fleet and did his work, dutifully as a younger brother should be to an elder, as Renly should be to me. And what was Robert’s thanks? He names me Lord of Dragonstone, and gives Storm's End and its incomes toRenly. Storm’s End belonged to the House Baratheon for three hundred years; by rights it should have passed to me when Robert took the Iron Throne.

Battle's were being fought simultaneously and it would make sense from a military perspective.

Like when the USA invaded the Japanese controlled islands in WW2 right (sarcasm). invading islands is restricted by the size of your fleet and their ability to support your forces. So basically you're guessing here.

Robert himself would have the largest army since he is the King and was laying siege to the capital of IB, so that makes sense

Like Robb was in charge of the larger half of his army in his invasion south right? you're guessing again.

We don't know how large of a force the IB had on each island, we don't know their ability and willingness to fight, we don't know how competent were their commanders.

Even if I go on and take your unbased guesses as truth, IT total army could have been more than 100,000. Stan could have had the smaller part and still landed with 30,000 (probably much less since there is no need) men, which is more than the IB can put together from all of their islands, not considering the many men they already lost in Lannisport, Fair Island and Seaguard. Not considering that the IB could have massed most of their forces on Pyke and so on.

I am showing you that making conclusion based on almost zero information just show's how desperate you are.

As for your quote from the Wiki. read carefully, it doesn't say he had to fight to take DS, just that he took it.

[Draco_Dracul]

Assuming Aegon keeps the throne, it is likely that debt that Robert and the Lannisters built up will be honored, but the money loaned to Stannis won't (as he was never the sitting King).

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Like Robb was in charge of the larger half of his army in his invasion south right? you're guessing again.

The difference here is Robb wasn't attacking Casterly Rock, do you think Robb would have attacked Casterly Rock with the smaller half of the army?

[A Duke]

The difference here is Robb wasn't attacking Casterly Rock, do you think Robb would have attacked Casterly Rock with the smaller half of the army?

The differences here are innumerable, starting from the relative sizes of the armies, and down to the fact that islands are not flat land and there is a limit on how many you can put on small island like Pyke.

To show how usless is the analogy: can you imagine Robb sending a big chunk of his army to fight somewhere else while he is attacking Casterly rock? No? well I guess that means that the battles of Pyke and G Wyk were not fought simultaneously (The logic is faulty so the conclusion doesn't make sense).

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

I am showing you that making conclusion based on almost zero information just show's how desperate you are.

As for your quote from the Wiki. read carefully, it doesn't say he had to fight to take DS, just that he took it.

Yeah sure, since i am making sense, throw personal insults so as try to win the argument. Internet 101.

Remember you can say the same, Theon "took" WF, Robb "took" the Crag.

Joffrey: You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him.

Cersei: Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather,

Joffrey: Why should I? Everyone knows it’s true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock.

- Chapter 53 Tyrion VI.

[Sansa_Stark]

Don't quote the wiki. Quote the books. The wiki is wrong about many things.

[A Duke]

Yeah sure, since i am making sense, throw personal insults so as try to win the argument. Internet 101.

Remember you can say the same, Theon "took" WF, Robb "took" the Crag.

Ah, that was poorly worded, I apologize. But it does seem a bit desperate move to base the Stannis is a great general on a battle (if there was even that) that we know practically nothing about.

Yeah, Theon took WF. But we know that he did it by combat. Do we know that Stannis took DS by combat? I don't believe so. I remember Dany talking about this, that viserios told her the tale how they were going to be betrayed so they fled. I don't recall anyone in the books refer to a battle at DS (as opposed to numerous mentions of the battles on the Iron Islands).

Don't quote the wiki. Quote the books. The wiki is wrong about many things.

You're right, but I can't remember where to begin looking for the quote I need, really. so the Wiki is at least something (right?).

[Sansa_Stark]

Ah, that was poorly worded, I apologize. But it does seem a bit desperate move to base the Stannis is a great general on a battle (if there was even that) that we know practically nothing about.

Yeah, Theon took WF. But we know that he did it by combat. Do we know that Stannis took DS by combat? I don't believe so. I remember Dany talking about this, that viserios told her the tale how they were going to be betrayed so they fled. I don't recall anyone in the books refer to a battle at DS (as opposed to numerous mentions of the battles on the Iron Islands).

You're right, but I can't remember where to begin looking for the quote I need, really. so the Wiki is at least something (right?).

The wiki sometimes has things that are just factually wrong.

Maybe use the references at the bottom to find things in the books.

[AtomixIGN]

I always figured the news of Stannis' and Jon's deals with the IB would never make it back to Bravoos. Nevermind Massey. The ships are sunk. Lost enroute to Hardhome and storms and winter and Wights - OH MY.

The question is what does the IB do when it makes multiple deals. Also Dany will be ale to repay any and all debts after she sacks New Ghis and Quarth and they settle for peace.

[BryndenTullys#1fan]

At some point the Debt becomes so large that it is laughable (I'm thinking of a country south of Canada, north of Mexico), and there are no credible plans to pay it off. I don't see how Roberts, Joffreys and now Stannis' Debt gets paid off at all without looting the Lannisters gold mines and selling all Westorosi commoners into slavery. Maybe that's why Dany needs 3 dragons, 1 to ride, 2 to pay off the IB when she gets the iron throne.

Chances are the IB gets screwed in the end and they fade from the story line. I think right now they only exist, to make it seem like Stannis is a larger player than he otherwise would be with an army of only 5,000.

Too bad to, because we all know how popular bankers are.

[Lord Vitiate]

I've made the argument on a previous thread that whoever takes the throne will have to pay the debt or suffer enormous consequences. Odious debt, which is the refusal of a regime to pay the previous regimes debts, is a very new concept, mostly in the 20th/21st century, and regime changes prior to that all assumed the debts of the state. If anyone reneges on the IB debt then their reputation is destroyed and when they have to borrow more money, which they will, especially as the realm is in chaos, then it would be at ridiculous rates of interest as nobody would trust the Throne to pay it back. If they still chose not to pay back the debt then Westeros currency would become nearly worthless as the Throne would have to mint it's own money and it would only further entrench the continent as an economically isolated backwater. And there's no way Illyrio or Dany could have enough money to pay back their debts. Illyrio is a wealthy merchant and Dany has the wealth of some prosperous city states, while the 7K is the largest state since the Valyrian Freehold.

Your idea is ridiculous, Aegon the conqueror did not incur the debts of his under kingdoms. Furthermore the monies of westeros are not fiat currency they are commodity monies, so anyone with a brain would accept it.

[BryndenTullys#1fan]

I also agree with the dude that said the IB only invested in Stannis b/c of his reputation. Dany and fAegon don't have a reputation yet, so I doubt they will be getting similar offers from the IB.

Anyone who's ever tried to get a loan from a bank, knows they like prior history. They will back Stannis, sink or swim.

[Heyo Winter Comin']

Your idea is ridiculous, Aegon the conqueror did not incur the debts of his under kingdoms. Furthermore the monies of westeros are not fiat currency they are commodity monies, so anyone with a brain would accept it.

How do you know he didn't?

[Mad Monkey]

I also agree with the dude that said the IB only invested in Stannis b/c of his reputation. Dany and fAegon don't have a reputation yet, so I doubt they will be getting similar offers from the IB.

Anyone who's ever tried to get a loan from a bank, knows they like prior history. They will back Stannis, sink or swim.

That's probably a big part of it. Also, Stannis was actually in Westeros, with a base and castles. Daenerys is as far as anyone knows pinned in Slaver's Bay with no way of entering Westeros, and Aegon's very existence is a secret known only to a relatively small circle of conspirators. Even if Tycho Nestoris wanted to approach them, how would he? Stannis at least has a mailing address in the right continent.

[Sansa_Stark]

Dany has a reputation all right. And its not exactly the best thing depending on who you ask.

[Mad Monkey]

Dany has a reputation all right. And its not exactly the best thing depending on who you ask.

That's also true. There's probably a reasonable concern that she might offer to pay off the Iron Bank in full if they come to Westeros to collect the gold, only to sic Drogon on them when they show up.

But even if they didn't worry about that, there's still the problem of her being pinned in Meereen with no way of getting to Westeros. Why would they ask her for help when Stannis is already in Westeros with an army? All backing Dany would do is up the risk and the cost of toppling the Lannisters since they would not only have to fund her war in Westeros but also fund a war in Slaver's Bay too.

[Draco_Dracul]

That's why I assume if Aegon was the final winner the Iron Bank would be willing to write off the money lent to Stannis as a loss so long as the money borrowed by Robert was guaranteed to be paid back.