Deadwood

[awesome possum]

I count exactly three:

1. The Preacher

2. Doc Cochrane

3. Ellsworth

Charlie Utter is a pretty good guy imo

Yeah I'd say those are pretty good guys too, and Charlie is the only one who doesn't end up royally fucked over... though perhaps only because we never got a fourth season.

[Independent George]

And Sol Starr. As as far as I can tell, he never did harm to anyone in the series.

[Rockroi]

In real life the preacher was found murdered on the edge of the camp.

Just to be clear:

In the show, Al mentioned that the preacher was found outside of town by travellers and that he probably had wandered off and passed. As horrible as it all was, if you go back and watch, Al's decency in relationship to the preacher is endearing

And he only mentions it in passing- easy to miss.

I just rewatched the whole series and it somehow, unbelievably, got better. I want to say how, but its difficult without spoiling it for some people. I want people to enjoy the show the way I did.

"Let us gather the town's elders, and be baffled amongst friends."

[The Monkey]

Just to jump in- I never got the sense that Alma was molested by her father and I don't think that scene articulates the truth of that assertion nor does it indicate evidence thereto. Joanie is explaining what happened to her and how Joanie's father was a monster; she is saying it to relate to her experience with her father and how terrible Joanie thinks Alma's dad must have been to her. But that does not mean molestation. In fact, Alma's anger towards her father is not amorphous; its incredibly clear.

Much like Joannie, Alma was sold. But in Alma's case it was in the form of a dowry to pay off her father's many debts. Alma is basically paying for her father's sins and her father's greatest sin is that he's an irresponsible fool and does not learn. Her hatred for him is not sexualized; its far more social and psychological. THis is all explained. In fact, the episode itself is called "Sold Under Sin" and that seems to explain Alma and her relationship with her father.

Also, Alma never indicates in that scene that she relates to that relationship of sex with her father; in fact Joannie does not seem to be saying this in order to get Alma to admit anything OR that Joannie even suspects that Alma is hiding this trauma. (I actually think it was a deft move by Mitch to give us an excuse NOT to discover more about Alma, but to find a place to have us discover more about Joannie not only did her dad fuck her and sell her into prostitution... its WHO he sold her to... he sold her to Cy Tolliver)

Miltch discussed a lot in Deadwood about the role of women and their life. Most notably, was how isolated, lonely and pedantic it was. Men could work, drink, gamble etc; women basically sat in rooms and cared for their children and that was really it (or get high on laudanum) . That proximity to the children could be suffocating (this is illustrated very well in Alma's relationship with Sofia's tutor, Ms. Ingringhouse and why she hates her so much). Well, both Joannie and Alma grew up without mothers (or at least without strong ones) to protect them from their fathers, and thus that proximity to their father's and their fathers' foibles and flaws grew more intense.

In other words- those feelings of hatred are not only found in relationships involving child rape, and not every childhood scar needs that element to be traumatic. I think Alma being sold because her father is a leech, corruptible, weak and childish is more than enough reason to feel okay that Seth beat his face inside out.

ETA:

Oh, and everytime you fast-forward a scene in Deadwood, a Hoople-Head dies.

You argue well for your stance, I'm inclined to believe you.

Speaking of Alma, I always thought it was strange how she slept with Al in the second season. It really comes out of nowhere, and not really in-character for her. But I guess she was lonely and in need of company, no matter how vile.

[Rockroi]

Speaking of Alma, I always thought it was strange how she slept with Al in the second season. It really comes out of nowhere, and not really in-character for her. But I guess she was lonely and in need of company, no matter how vile.

...

....

What?

...

...

Okay I'll get back to that before my head implodes.

Just to the first point - as to whether or not Alma was raped by her father - I can see where somebody may think that. For starters, her dad is creepy. He comes off as rude, crude; a man who thinks he is smarter than he is etc. He just SEEMS like the kind of man who, if you discovered years later, had been stooping his own daughter you would say, "You know what? I can totally see that." Second, he seems to ... flaunt... his affection for Alma; in fact at one point when he kisses Alma he turns to Seth and says (in the most fucking creepy way imaginable) "Excuse me Mr. Bullock but I take a father's prerogative." Uh... okay... you gonna feel her up, too?

And lastly- and maybe the most jaw-dropping - is the scene where daddy reveals that he has encumbered serious debts - over and above what he had had prior to Alma's marriage. Just as he refuses to sign any contract with his daughter (ensuring that he stays away from her fortune) he draws very close to Sofia and begins to do that "coin-in-the-ear" trick when Alma FREAKS OUT! As if her father's affection for Sofia draws just too closely to the potential rape he did to her years before. Its as close to "buying" that theory as I can get.

However, take a step back. As I stated- there is no evidence for the rape and Alma's father's actions and her reactions have far more obvious and tethered sources. And even that scene with Sophia - recall that just at that moment her father had just admitted to Alma that he was back in debt. IN OTHER WORDS- Alma had been sold- bought and paid for - for her father's debts ... and her father has encumbered new debts, thus rendering her sacrifice for him fruitless. And worse- he slaps her down when she requests that he have no future stake in her holdings. Just as he strikes that down, he reaches out for Sophia...

... in other words, Alma realizes at that 11th hour that her father will always leech off her; suck her dry, suck Sophia dry, bleed them white with his greed, avarice and stupidity; that he will never learn, never heal, never improve. That he will be, forever, the black hole of her and her future. So, she pounces to save herself and Sophia.

...

...

Okay... now... please tell me where you derive your evidence that Al knocked boots with Alma. BE specific. Use Specific examples. And be quick before I get an aneurism.

[Mark Antony]

What?

Okay... now... please tell me where you derive your evidence that Al knocked boots with Alma. BE specific. Use Specific examples. And be quick before I get an aneurism.

:lmao:

This

[The Monkey]

Okay... now... please tell me where you derive your evidence that Al knocked boots with Alma. BE specific. Use Specific examples. And be quick before I get an aneurism.

The end of this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0wmhbPSWGo

The next scene is Al coming down the stairs from her room, wiping away sweat on his brow, telling Farnum something like "she's some fuck". In season three, when Hearst asks Al to arrange for his purchase of Alma's holdings, he says "as for making your way into her, I'd suggest using soft language and an inclination for tea" (or something of the like). Thought it was fairly obvious; why would Al make shit up?

[Rockroi]

The end of this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0wmhbPSWGo

The next scene is Al coming down the stairs from her room, wiping away sweat on his brow, telling Farnum something like "she's some fuck". In season three, when Hearst asks Al to arrange for his purchase of Alma's holdings, he says "as for making your way into her, I'd suggest using soft language and an inclination for tea" (or something of the like). Thought it was fairly obvious; why would Al make shit up?

...fruity tea....

Okay, I feel better now.

I really cannot imagine even Al boffing Alma while Sofia was there.

Then again, its Al, so its possible he hit her in the head before going at it.

[The Monkey]

...fruity tea....

Okay, I feel better now.

I really cannot imagine even Al boffing Alma while Sofia was there.

Then again, its Al, so its possible he hit her in the head before going at it.

Yeah, as I said, it's weird. It's strange as it is that he would tell that blabbermouth EB about it (seeing as Bullock would've gone mental had he found out), but even more strange that he would lie about it to him. Why would he?

[RumHam]

The end of this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0wmhbPSWGo

The next scene is Al coming down the stairs from her room, wiping away sweat on his brow, telling Farnum something like "she's some fuck". In season three, when Hearst asks Al to arrange for his purchase of Alma's holdings, he says "as for making your way into her, I'd suggest using soft language and an inclination for tea" (or something of the like). Thought it was fairly obvious; why would Al make shit up?

He also wipes sweat from his brow before he walks in, so I don't think that means anything. I don't have time to watch the episodes in question now but "she's some fuck." just sounds like Al's sense of humor. I always thought he was telling Herst how to get in good with her, not sleep with her.

[Mark Antony]

I always thought he was telling Herst how to get in good with her, not sleep with her.

That's what I assumed as well.

And I just figured he was fucking with EB like he always does :D

[Lord Flashheart]

Yeah....Al definitely never slept with Alma.

[Relic]

That's what I assumed as well.

And I just figured he was fucking with EB like he always does :D

Same here. Altho i never noticed the steamy look Alma gives him at the end of that scene. Still, no. I don't see it.

[sToNED_CAT]

It's not just about getting invaded by Pinkertons. It's also about getting invaded by the US Government. The lingering fear from everyone in the camp is that their titles and deeds will be invalidated upon annexation. if a man like Hearst is murdered in Deadwood, that gives the Yankton cocksuckers the opportunity to take over the camp with the backing of the government.

Sorry, but I just don't see it how could that be plausible. It's not like Deadwood was the first "wild" mining town in America - what about SF for example? How much gold was taken from John Sutter property and he couldn't do shit about it. Small prospectors had huge power in Wild West, so it's questionable US govt, Hearst, Pinkertons or any big guys would be able to do anything about it.

[Werthead]

This reminds me that I need to watch Season 3. Season 2 was a huge let-down after S1, but the last few episodes showed a return to form.

WTF was HBO thinking when they cancelled that show? Completely, without a doubt, the best writing ever.

There's basically been two conflicting versions of this.

Version 1 is that Milch wanted to make John From Cincinatti ASAP after having the idea and he and HBO agreed to put Deadwood on hiatus to accomplish this. However, HBO were unable to retain all of the cast on contract and by the time they were ready to go again, the cast had flown to the winds and it was impossible to get them all back. After a few years of trying to squeeze in a TV movie or something, they gave up.

Version 2 is that HBO found the show to be too expensive to make at the same time as Rome and faced a budget crisis where the choice came down between Rome Season 2, which they had a contract with the BBC to make, or Deadwood Season 4. They had no choice but to go with Rome, put Deadwood off and appeased Milch with the much cheaper JFC.

Basically, one version (1) puts the blame squarely on Milch and version (2) puts it firmly on HBO for overreaching. IIRC there were a whole bunch of additional convulations, like HBO wanted to do a six-episode short season but Milch refused, and that both wanted to do a duology of TV movies but there was only ever a handshake agreement and the guy at HBO doing the hand-shaking got fired a month later for physically assaulting someone...it's basically a huge mess and no-one's ever gotten the full story out. It doesn't help that Milch himself changes his story almost every time he's asked either.

[Rockroi]

It's not just about getting invaded by Pinkertons. It's also about getting invaded by the US Government. The lingering fear from everyone in the camp is that their titles and deeds will be invalidated upon annexation. if a man like Hearst is murdered in Deadwood, that gives the Yankton cocksuckers the opportunity to take over the camp with the backing of the government.

And

Sorry, but I just don't see it how could that be plausible. It's not like Deadwood was the first "wild" mining town in America - what about SF for example? How much gold was taken from John Sutter property and he couldn't do shit about it. Small prospectors had huge power in Wild West, so it's questionable US govt, Hearst, Pinkertons or any big guys would be able to do anything about it.

Errr... its a little more nuanced than that.

Deadwood actually WANTS to be part of the US, but not "invaded" by the United States; they want to be "annexed." BAsically they want everything that they have in place to stay in place at the time of annexation; this would include all elected officials, posts, land ownership etc. Al realizes this several times in the first season when dealing with Magistrate Klaget; he needs to put into place the apparatuses that declare "Deadwood (already) exists." This then goes a step further in season one when Al starts bribing all the politicians etc; to Al (and to a lesser degree Seth et al) bribery and corruption are a far "cleaner" path to their way of life than any other method. Al would rather bribe the legislature than deal with the monsters out there like Hearst.

THIS is why prior to Hearst's arrival, Tolliver spreads the rumor that "the claims are no good" - its so Hearst can buy them up. This accelerates Al's moves with the new Commissioner (and paradoxically Ms. Igenhausen, the Pinkerton)- to ensure actual elections and give the town ultimate authority and legitimacy with the US Government. THis forces Hearst's hand; while all the smaller finds sold to him, Mrs. Garrett didn't so Hearts- who can no longer rely on Tolliver, rumors or his own collection of corrupt officials - has to go to Deadwood himself.

So why not just kill Hearst? Because if Hearst is killed- as Langrish and Swearengen state - it does not just bring the Pinkertons or the US Government or even revenge seekers; it brings "the shareholders." Hearst is the head of a massive conglomerate and his shareholders rely on him to keep their purses full. If Hearst were to die, those "vipers with a thousand teeth" (iirc) would descend and that would mean more than just a few cracked skulls. Hearst was massively power man, ("elections either validate my will or I neuter them") who was very well known. His loss would have brought immeasurable problems on Deadwood. Recall, that this was just a few months after Custer's defeat at Little Big Horn and the idea of revenge was fast on people's minds (as Al properly noted, it lead to a one-way "ass-fucking" for the Native Americans from that point forward).

As far as comparing Deadwood to John Sutter's Mill, its "complicated." Sutter's loss happened in 1849 - some twenty years BEFORE the American Civil War and the massive mobilization of the US Armed forces on the American Continent; forty years before the events in Deadwood. Its a different world. The US Army is not a far flung and hap-hazard entity, but one that can (and would be) brought in to settle disputes for years. While John Sutter could not do much, George Hearst could- not because Hearst was more powerful than Sutter (though he probably was) but because UNLIKE Sutter's time, Hearst's time actually has an army that would be ready, willing, and able to actually act. Hearst has connections to the Army and he could get men there. Also recall, Deadwood was very large by this point- it had attracted many people (note that in season 2, Farnum's hotel doe snot get smaller, its just that more people arrive).

But remember- that's not even Al and Seth's largest concern; its not just the US Army that scares them- its Pinkertons and other vigilante investigators who could unfurl their own brand of frontier justice; men who would revert to scorched earth AFTER Hearst and disrupt everything. Killing Hearst is basically like sending out a gigantic flare that says "We are completely uncivilized and/or cannot protect outsiders nor restrain our own. Please 'invade' us."

So Seth and Al are looking down the barrel of two competing problems if they kill Hearst - either invite Hearst shareholders, partners and revenge-seekers and their Pinkerton Army OR ... invite the actual US Army. Neither preferable.

Killing Hearst would have been a disaster for the town which would have ended in fire, and thus the least of their options. In the end, Seth and Al prized freedom, autonomy and self-sufficiency. And the only way to do that is to prove to the world one fundamental: that Deadwood can control itself.

[Igziabeher]

HBO seems to have most of its old series on demand currently (at least on Comcast). So now would be a great time for a rewatch or watch it for the first time if in fact it is available in your area.

[awesome possum]

I've been doing just that thanks to three sick days in the last eight days. Finished the second season yesterday.

The series has been perhaps more rewarding this time around despite my trepidation to rewatch (because I'm still pissed that it ended). I remember thinking the second season was not nearly as good as season one upon my first - and only - viewing of them, but I enjoyed it much more. I wasn't impressed with Martha and William Bullock the first time through but this time, perhaps already knowing what laid in store, I didn't mind so much that a kid and some mousy lady were taking screen time away from my favorite characters. In fact I probably spent a good two hours sitting teary-eyed on my couch from the end of the episode when William and Steve the Hooplehead get trampled until his funeral two episodes later.

I finished the season feeling that while I remembered how special this series was the first time I watched it, I didn't realize how powerful it can be. I had similar feelings last week when I finished the first season but it was even greater this time. My wife has never watch the series and I'm so back in love with this show that I want to start the first season with her tomorrow (and, yes, put off the third season and the end even longer).

[Independent George]

I loved S2 - even more than S1, in no small part because of the funeral. That was the episode that made me really get the show as a whole - seeing all the various outcasts and renegades quietly and somberly line up and pay their honest respects to a young child they barely knew.

And then, of course, came "The Boy The Earth Talked To", which is my favorite episode of the entire series. I could watch the last 5 minutes on an endless loop and be happy.

[Relic]

Im re-watching it an episode a day as well. Just made it into season 2. Loving it, perhaps more than ever.