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Fire Eater

Moments of Foreshadowing 7 [TPatQ spoilers]

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I am starting this thread, and I gave it a spoiler so TPatQ foreshadowing could be discussed without the inconvenience of spoiler tags.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

he [Aegon II] tore the chain of the office from his neck and tossed it to Criston Cole

As I have argued before, Jaime is the Kingmaker in the sense that every king he has supported has sat the IT from Aerys to Tommen.

[Criston Cole's] foraging parties that ventured further did not return

Half the men I [Daven Lannister] send off to look for food do not return.

ghastly tableaux where armored corpses sat beneath the trees in rotting rainment, in a grotesque mockery of a feast . . . [scouts] paying no heed to the rotting dead . . . until the corpses sprang up and fell upon them

Farther on she [Dany in the HotU] came upon a feast of corpses

Criston Cole being Hand could foreshadow Jaime becoming Hand of the King. Criston Cole visits Harrenhal, and later finds himself surrounded by enemies with his forces being picked off in the riverlands. The corpse feast Dany sees in the HotU refers to the RW, and the ghostly tableaux in TPatQ attacking Cole's men could point to or foreshadow, UnCat, one of the feasters killed at the RW, having the Lannister forces killed off. In the Dance of Dragons, the Lannister force in the riverland was destroyed as well in the Fishfeed, and Cat's sigil is a trout, so this could foreshadow Jaime's forces in the riverlands being destroyed by the BwB.

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a great grey bear of a man [Willem Darry]

Jorah's sigil is a bear, and this foreshadows him looking after Dany like Darry did.

Lamprey, on 05 Jan 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:snapback.png

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her livingheart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

To add to the crackpottery:

In its own way, the arrow was as deadly as the sword

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Amidst the chaos and carnage brought on by their rivalry, other would-be kings would stake claims as well, strutting about like mummers on a stage for a fortnight or a moon’s turn, only to fall as swiftly as they had arisen.

It refers to Trystane:

During that long night, chaos held sway over half the city, whilst strange lords and kings of misrule squabbled o’er the rest. A hedge knight named Ser Perkin the Flea crowned his own squire Trystane, a stripling of sixteen years, declaring him to be a natural son of the late King Viserys. Any knight can make a knight, and when Ser Perkin began dubbing every sellsword, thief, and butcher’s boy who flocked to Trystane’s ragged banner, men and boys appeared by the hundreds to pledge themselves to his cause.

Sounds like FAegon (who claims to be the son of the dead prince Rhaegar) and is sixteen (according to tyrion) will have plenty of support but will fall "as swiftly as he has arisen."

When a crazed one-handed prophet called the Shepherd began to rant against dragons, not just the ones who were coming to attack them, but all dragons everywhere, the crowd, half-crazed themselves, listened. “When the dragons come,” he shrieked, “your flesh will burn and blister and turn to ash. Your wives will dance in gowns of fire, shrieking as they burn, lewd and naked underneath the flames. And you shall see your little children weeping, weeping till their eyes do melt and slide like jelly down their faces, till their pink flesh falls black and crackling from their bones. The Stranger comes, he comes, he comes, to scourge us for our sins

Foreshadowing of King´s Landing burning

"When Dragons come" =Aegon at the gates. The city about to fall.. Cersei redoing Mad King Aerys´s plan.

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It refers to Trystane:

Sounds like FAegon (who claims to be the son of the dead prince Rhaegar) and is sixteen (according to tyrion) will have plenty of support but will fall "as swiftly as he has arisen."

Foreshadowing of King´s Landing burning

"When Dragons come" =Aegon at the gates. The city about to fall.. Cersei redoing Mad King Aerys´s plan.

Or it will be Jon who comes to King's Landing to seize the Iron Throne from Cersei in order to help repel the Others, and she burns the Red keep down to keep Jon from ascending to power. Jaime clears the way by strangling her.

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High above, a crow screamed loudly. He was perched on the statue of King Baelor, shitting on his holy head.



I think this works like the three seagulls on the statue of Daeron I in Oldtown. I think the crow in KL foreshadows a crow, Jon, coming to the city as king. There are two ways to interpret the Baelor aspect. It could point to the person named for Baelor I, Baelor Breakspear, who shares a lot in common with Jon. Or it could refer to Baelor I himself, who was popular and well-loved by the smallfolk.



ETA: Daeron I brought war, and the seagulls (kings) are going to bring war to Oldtown. It was Baelor I who negotiated with Dorne to bring peace, and so the crow on the statue of Baelor could point to Jon ending the war and bringing peace to King's Landing.


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High above, a crow screamed loudly. He was perched on the statue of King Baelor, shitting on his holy head.

I think this works like the three seagulls on the statue of Daeron I in Oldtown. I think the crow in KL foreshadows a crow, Jon, coming to the city as king. There are two ways to interpret the Baelor aspect. It could point to the person named for Baelor I, Baelor Breakspear, who shares a lot in common with Jon. Or it could refer to Baelor I himself, who was popular and well-loved by the smallfolk.

Good catch. I think Jon will gain popularity with the small folk because he cares about them, and he won't be involved with the DotD 2.0, which is a big plus. Daenerys will end up losing the throne because of her involvement with the whole mess, and the people of Westeros won't want a kinslayer and kingslayer as queen.

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Or it will be Jon who comes to King's Landing to seize the Iron Throne from Cersei in order to help repel the Others, and she burns the Red keep down to keep Jon from ascending to power. Jaime clears the way by strangling her.

Yes. Could also play like that.

Aegon has the advantage of being close to wed Arianne, and she can play as a not so obvious prophesied queen that brings Cersei down.

Jon´s queen is not that clear. Dany was the obvious choice as the next-queen. somehow i like it more for Aegon to sit in the throne first.

GRRM said that many people will sit in the throne before this is over. by that i don´t think he means just Myrcella.

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Yes. Could also play like that.

Aegon has the advantage of being close to wed Arianne, and she can play as a not so obvious prophesied queen that brings Cersei down.

Jon´s queen is not that clear. Dany was the obvious choice as the next-queen. somehow i like it more for Aegon to sit in the throne first.

GRRM said that many people will sit in the throne before this is over. by that i don´t think he means just Myrcella.

I think Val will be Jon's queen.

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I like the thought of Old God followers on the IT, and of there perhaps growing a new, real weirwood heart tree in KL (a dragon planting a tree?), though part of me wouldn't 'wish' that IT on Jon, or anyone, really, because it won't be all hearts and flowers when they arrive there. If lucky, there'll be some survivors left of all the war and Others attack and the lands will be poor by then. Lots of IB debts, I reckon.



I don't think Cersei and Jon will fight (though a part of me would like to see her face when she realises what Ned's been hiding all along), but it'll be Aegon who comes after Cersei, and Dany after Aegon. Jon's part of the story, hoping that there's some left, of course, will be in the North, either at the Wall and/or at Winterfell for now. Someone needs to do the sensible thing and start evacuating all those people. No need for the ones who cannot fight to stay as Others food at the Watch! :)



It would then be Dany and Jon who meet, possibly.



I must say that I am intrigued by the Jaime things above, since I've read that theory of him being Kingmaker. It would be odd to see Jon and Jaime versus Dany and Tyrion. I'd be really curious for that latter's actions, then, since Jon is supposedly a friend of his.



I don't need to say I like Jon and Val, and if Jon were to stay in the North, then she'd make a good spouse for him. I don't know about the IT since she's not bred to be a noble, and she might not even want it (she'd be removed from her people if the IT would be in KL). I'd like to know more of the girls of smaller Houses, like there is an Allyria Dayne that might be around his age, or some other who has First Men blood. (A pity the Blackwood girl is so young. Rickon?)


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I think Val will be Jon's queen.

I´m not sure if there is anything in terms of evidence to back the way i think things will play out. I agree about Jon and Val, i just think Val will play as Nissa Nissa for Jon.

That way, when Dany arrives, Jon will be free for a political marriage (remember bride of fire vision) and rejoin the North (by that time a kingdom once more) with the 7k, or at least dany´s claim to the 7k.

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I´m not sure if there is anything in terms of evidence to back the way i think things will play out. I agree about Jon and Val, i just think Val will play as Nissa Nissa for Jon.

That way, when Dany arrives, Jon will be free for a political marriage (remember bride of fire vision) and rejoin the North (by that time a kingdom once more) with the 7k, or at least dany´s claim to the 7k.

I don't think so. You need to re-read much more closely to spot the queen references to Val, and Daenerys may die at the Wall, in my opinion.

Ser Jorah told her of the tree it [peach] had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

The western wall, in my opinion refers to the Wall. And Daenerys eating that peach foreshadows her death there. Renly ate a peach, and he died, killed by a shadow assassin. Asha and her lover ate peaches, and she will be an accidental sacrifice during the Battle of Ice, so the peaches = death symbolism stands. And you need to revise accordingly, and look at the peach she ate as a symbol of her ultimate fate; dying at the Wall without sitting on the Iron throne.

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I don't think so. You need to re-read much more closely to spot the queen references to Val, and Daenerys may die at the Wall, in my opinion.

Ser Jorah told her of the tree it [peach] had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

The western wall, in my opinion refers to the Wall. And Daenerys eating that peach foreshadows her death there. Renly ate a peach, and he died, killed by a shadow assassin. Asha and her lover ate peaches, and she will be an accidental sacrifice during the Battle of Ice, so the peaches = death symbolism stands. And you need to revise accordingly, and look at the peach she ate as a symbol of her ultimate fate; dying at the Wall without sitting on the Iron throne.

Sure. Val will be queen.. But, as queen in the north, or as queen of the Seven Kingodms?

Two different things. Let me explain better the order of events i have in my mind.

The Kingdom of the North will raise again (LS has the crown)..with Jon as king (Robb´s will)

Val could, during the war against the Others act as Nissa Nissa. If Jon is indeed Azor Ahai, he still needs to solve this lightbringer issue. Val seems like an elegant way to do so. A sacrifice important enough.

BTW, i never said i thought Dany would sit in the IT. Aegon might be quicker. A Dany might need the North on her side.

so, She marries Jon (as "bride of fire" vision indicates)

That marriage works as a political alliance to rejoin the north. After that, she dies one way or another (fighting the DoD2 for instance, or as you propose at the Wall).

And Jon could end up fighting in her place for the Seven kingdoms, and actually winning the IT.

Besides the Bride of Fire this passage always is used to support this Dany+Jon theory:

“Why shouldn’t we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!” He pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m’lords,” he thundered. “The King in the North!”

of course from the Greatjon perspective all dragons are dead, therefore the North should rule itself. But the dragons aren´t really dead, so they might have to "marry" to them once more.

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Sure. Val will be queen.. But, as queen in the north, or as queen of the Seven Kingodms?

Two different things. Let me explain better the order of events i have in my mind.

The Kingdom of the North will raise again (LS has the crown)..with Jon as king (Robb´s will)

Val could, during the war against the Others act as Nissa Nissa. If Jon is indeed Azor Ahai, he still needs to solve this lightbringer issue. Val seems like an elegant way to do so. A sacrifice important enough.

BTW, i never said i thought Dany would sit in the IT. Aegon might be quicker. A Dany might need the North on her side.

so, She marries Jon (as "bride of fire" vision indicates)

That marriage works as a political alliance to rejoin the north. After that, she dies one way or another (fighting the DoD2 for instance, or as you propose at the Wall).

And Jon could end up fighting in her place for the Seven kingdoms, and actually winning the IT.

Besides the Bride of Fire this passage always is used to support this Dany+Jon theory:

of course from the Greatjon perspective all dragons are dead, therefore the North should rule itself. But the dragons aren´t really dead, so they might have to "marry" to them once more.

You better re-read my post and mull over what I mean by peaches symbolizing a future death, just as oranges did in the Godfather. The reason I mentioned that quote is twofold; this proves that Dany won't be Jon's queen and that she is marked for death. And I also believe that the bride of fire quote means that what she loves and desire most will consume her to the point that she will lose them just as it is in her reach.

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Dorne, yes, Dorne for me. He [Tyrion] crawled into his bunk, clutching that thought like a child with a doll.

The giant was dangling a bloody corpse by one leg, the same way Arya used to dangle her doll when she was small

Another clue to Tyrion beating Dorne

I´m not sure if there is anything in terms of evidence to back the way i think things will play out. I agree about Jon and Val, i just think Val will play as Nissa Nissa for Jon.

Evidence


BTW, i never said i thought Dany would sit in the IT. Aegon might be quicker. A Dany might need the North on her side.

so, She marries Jon (as "bride of fire" vision indicates)

That marriage works as a political alliance to rejoin the north. After that, she dies one way or another (fighting the DoD2 for instance, or as you propose at the Wall).

Why would Dany need to marry Jon to get the North when Jon's claim supersedes Dany's and he has the North?


I must say that I am intrigued by the Jaime things above, since I've read that theory of him being Kingmaker. It would be odd to see Jon and Jaime versus Dany and Tyrion. I'd be really curious for that latter's actions, then, since Jon is supposedly a friend of his.

I don't think Tyrion would fight against Jon, and I think both Tyrion and Dany will be dead by the time Jon reaches KL.

I think Val has a more magical purpose to the story then being Queen.

I agree, I think she will be caring for Jon while he is out, and be the one who witnesses his "resurrection." I wouldn't be surprised if she helps in his revival.

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Evidence

Why would Dany need to marry Jon to get the North when Jon's claim supersedes Dany's and he has the North?

1) Yes sure. I´ve already said that i agreed with that. Val will be his queen (in the north). Nissa Nissa was also Azor ahai´s wife.

2) We really have no idea when the R+L=J thing will come out really.

Even if so, your answer could be real Politik. Dany will probably have a huge army, and dragons. But no one can really hold the north save through northmen. Aegon understood this. Dany might need Jon to rejoin the north with the 7k.

And Jon, may have a better claim (just not really credible.. even less credible than Aegon´s), and no army to conquer the rest of the 7k.

There is a lot of space for a political alliance there. And marriage is the standard way to seal those alliances. Once Dany is out of the picture:

In Westeros the dead of House Targaryen were given to the flames, but who would light her pyre here? My flesh will feed the wolves and carrion crows, she thought sadly,

Her army might follow Jon.

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You better re-read my post and mull over what I mean by peaches symbolizing a future death, just as oranges did in the Godfather. The reason I mentioned that quote is twofold; this proves that Dany won't be Jon's queen and that she is marked for death. And I also believe that the bride of fire quote means that what she loves and desire most will consume her to the point that she will lose them just as it is in her reach.

I did. I just think that Renly eating a peach before dying does not "prove" that Dany, by doing so too, is marked for death before she can accomplish other stuff first. Stuff that might make sense (or not) in terms of plot development and might also be supported by other pieces of foreshadowing and prophecy.

Even accepting that Dany is in fact marked for death (aren´t we all?), how does it prove she won´t be Jon, or anyone else’s, queen for that matter?

By the way, i understand that there is no conclusive interpretation of the "bride of fire" vision, but Jon+Dany is kind of conventional. What exactly do you think Dany sees at the last image of the trio of "bride of fire"? Because, if it is Jon, once the relationship is established, a political marriage is just one step ahead.

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I did. I just think that Renly eating a peach before dying does not "prove" that Dany, by doing so too, is marked for death before she can accomplish other stuff first. Stuff that might make sense (or not) in terms of plot development and might also be supported by other pieces of foreshadowing and prophecy.

Even accepting that Dany is in fact marked for death (aren´t we all?), how does it prove she won´t be Jon, or anyone else’s, queen for that matter?

By the way, i understand that there is no conclusive interpretation of the "bride of fire" vision, but Jon+Dany is kind of conventional. What exactly do you think Dany sees at the last image of the trio of "bride of fire"? Because, if it is Jon, once the relationship is established, a political marriage is just one step ahead.

I seriously doubt your idea. I stand by my argument and you should accept it. When TWoW comes out and my predictions are confirmed then the bitter pill will be your to swallow, not mine.

I believe that Daenery is on a very dark path, and the bride of fire title in my opinion means that Daenery will desire the Iron Throne, and that desire for it will ultimately be her downfall. She will do despicable things that Jon will find dishonourable, like killing innocent people to make a point, and kinslaying. And fire consumes, so this is strike one against her character. She has embraced the Fire And Blood, and this won't be good for Daenerys in my opinion, as it means that she has chosen bloodshed and destruction over planting trees.

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Lastly, (iv), well, Aerion Brightfire did not stay in Lys all his life, only a few years. He may have fathered a few bastards there, which would mean Dany has "relatives" of a sort in Lys... but they would be very distant relatives, from the wrong side of the blanket.

Aerion had a trueborn son passed over by the Great Council and he may have fathered bastards in Lys and/or during his time with the Second Sons.

Aerion smiled redly. The prince’s mouth was bloody.

“That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood.

Is Patchface descended from a bastard of Aerion? I think there is another parallel between Aerion drinking wildfire out of madness and this:

“We found him [Moqorro] clinging to a broken spar,” said the Vole. “He was ten days in the water after his ship went down.”

“If he were ten days in the water, he’d be dead, or mad from drinking seawater.

I am pretty sure that Aerion and his descendants have every reason to hate Egg and his line. I think the skulls about a descendant of Aerion could mean that Brighflames and Blackfyres are united in the same cause to overthrow the Targaryens. In this case the skulls are the skulls of the past captain generals of the GC. That goes well with my theory on the dragons old and young which says Bright Dragon is a Brightflame (descendant of Aerion in short) and Dark Dragon is a Blackfyre.

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So Lyse Stark..
somehow your personal interpretation of symbolism and metaphor, let alone prophecy, a notoriously undefinable & open-ended piece of the series, is somehow fact now?
Acting like they should stuff it because they maybe see things different than you..sounding like an internet dictator isn't a good argument.

Come on kid, its called foreshadowing for a reason
You can't just pull a Mel and try and convince us what you glimpsed in the flames was a dragon and not just your own ass.

May be that you're right, the omen could be pretty clear looking at it that way.
& yet, how does seeing a death omen all of a sudden equal out to her going full Aerys on us? Or that she can't do things, get married etc. like they were suggesting, before she may die? Being convinced she won't is a huge leap that isn't even follow any logical discretion
the assumption she' off the deep end from her last DwD chapter of choosing fire and blood is one thing, but i know everyone's gnawing at the bit ready to commit her, but its all words man and we've heard what they are 1,000 times

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