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Is it possible that Barristan Selmy knows something about Jon's parentage? If he knew something, even if it wasn't the whole story, perhaps that could be the catalyst for Dany going to the wall and meeting Jon?

Barristan was wounded on the Trident pretty badly. I don;t really think he would know anything of what happened at the Tower of Joy. He anyway wasn't in Rhaegar's inner circle.

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"“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End." AGoT p. 379

Here is the passage. Timeline wise, if this is when Rickard agreed to the match, and it was publicly know at the ToH, that would make Ned's visit to Winterfell before the ToH.

I always thought that Ned went to Winterfell to propose the Robert-Lyanna arrangement (Rickard agrees), then went south with his sibling to the ToH.

Same. I think that the Ned-Lyanna convo about Robert predates the tournament. Mainly because I think Lyanna actually stayed in the south after the tournament at Harrenhal with the Whents, and it was from Harrenhal that she and Rhaegar eloped. Meaning, she would never have gone back to Winterfell at all.

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I don't know who 'Blu' is… & for a variety of reasons, I do not think your post is very well thought out…

Well, Blu is the poster of the supposed theory about Lyanna being pregnant twice, the same theory you are going on and on about. Without any proper reason or even a hint from the text itself if I might add. And don't be offended...but your own "theories" and "predictions" are not that "well thought out" or supported by the text as you may delude yourself into thinking they are.

Hi folks.

This is an oft repeated quote here, taken to imply that Snow is being somehow equated to King. Actually Robert is just talking about the people. That was the subject of the previous question. So it is "your people" not "Kings" hiding under the snow. And well, Snow is cap S Snow, because well it is at the start of the sentence. ;)

There is a literary technique called word play. Do you believe GRRM likes to play with words? If you believe the answer is no; then, yes, the cited paragraph is talking about the people who are hiding under the snow. But if the answer is yes... hmm?

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There is a literary technique called word play. Do you believe GRRM likes to play with words? If you believe the answer is no; then, yes, the cited paragraph is talking about the people who are hiding under the snow. But if the answer is yes... hmm?

Well, basically what you want to believe more like. :dunno:

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And the same can be said for you. Which is why that sort of retort is basically useless.

Look back at the sentence. clearly the subject of the question is "Where are your people" to whicj the answer comes "They're hiding under the snow." It makes sense.

If we're really considering Jon here, we may note that the author clearly uses a plural pronoun. One "Snow" king is fine, but I'm sure we don't have bastard kings hiding in the north in plural.

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"Robert will never keep to one bed, Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storms End." AGoT p. 379

Here is the passage. Timeline wise, if this is when Rickard agreed to the match, and it was publicly know at the ToH, that would make Ned's visit to Winterfell before the ToH.

I always thought that Ned went to Winterfell to propose the Robert-Lyanna arrangement (Rickard agrees), then went south with his sibling to the ToH.

Yes, Ned was Roberts go-between.

Robert wanted him to intercede for him to Rickard, and speculating here, after Rickard agreed, Ned then approached a likely upset Lyanna to persuade her.

Hence her cynical comment.

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Look back at the sentence. clearly the subject of the question is "Where are your people" to whicj the answer comes "They're hiding under the snow." It makes sense.

If we're really considering Jon here, we may note that the author clearly uses a plural pronoun. One "Snow" king is fine, but I'm sure we don't have bastard kings hiding in the north in plural.

Where is the rule stating that the sentence structure or wording has to match up perfectly to qualify as wordplay?

There's enough in there to suggest that a king is hiding under snow, which just so happens to be the surname of Northern bastards. And, wouldn't you know it, but this turns out to be true. Do you really think that is a coincidence -- that GRRM accidentally wrote that bit the way he did without realizing its implications? Come on.

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Look back at the sentence. clearly the subject of the question is "Where are your people" to whicj the answer comes "They're hiding under the snow." It makes sense.

If we're really considering Jon here, we may note that the author clearly uses a plural pronoun. One "Snow" king is fine, but I'm sure we don't have bastard kings hiding in the north in plural.

Beside the obvious word playing/pun/paranomasia, let's not forget that the plural can be used to make generalizations as in 'there are people on this page who don't believe this passage contains a subtext beyond the literal meaning'. Where people is clearly a generalization for, well, you ;) Rhetorically is much more effective and elegant (not to mention... sneaky lol).

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It could be interpreted a variety of ways. These men were bound to him, they did as they were told… They can be as large or as small of an issue as GRRM would like to make of them...

You never know though, in the future, we could be offered some additional information regarding the nature of Rheagar & Lyanna's interactions & plans that could have been made immediately following the Knight of the Laughing Tree Chase/Hunt. I think that future BwB's Chapters would be a likely place for such information on the said encounter to spring forth, GRRM is very good about mixing things up - His pots come thoroughly stirred.

Very true, but their being twins is outside of the context I was using & not pertinent to this particular discussion. Unless I misunderstand you & you are suggesting that Lyanna gave birth to twins at some point. This is a suggestion that I would be very open to, though I probably would not support the idea of two pregnancies & twins. However, one or the other seem to be viable options, again, based upon some of Ned's reactions & thoughts from aGOTs...

The point was that you cannot assume that there was any interaction between R+L following the KotLT hunt beyond a possible unmasking... no more than it would follow that after that unmasking the four of them had a group. Besides... one of Rhaegar's companions was Robert Baratheon. ("Excuse me Bob, while I have a roll in the hay with your beastie's sister?") I do agree that any future reveal of what exactly happened there will come via the BwB, as I believe Lem was one of the "hunters." ;)

As for the twins, yes that was an ironic reference to the sometimes suggested R+L=twins theory, which imo is the only way R+L left behind multiple offspring.

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Where is the rule stating that the sentence structure or wording has to match up perfectly to qualify as wordplay?

There's enough in there to suggest that a king is hiding under snow, which just so happens to be the surname of Northern bastards. And, wouldn't you know it, but this turns out to be true. Do you really think that is a coincidence -- that GRRM accidentally wrote that bit the way he did without realizing its implications? Come on.

Beside the obvious word playing/pun/paranomasia, let's not forget that the plural can be used to make generalizations as in 'there are people on this page who don't believe this passage contains a subtext beyond the literal meaning'. Where people is clearly a generalization for, well, you ;) Rhetorically is much more effective and elegant (not to mention... sneaky lol).

I see the point you guys are making. I'm just, not entirely convinced that's all. :)

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Because you don't want to be. See, it does roll both ways.

May be . But if we do believe that, half the stuff we discuss as foreshadowing is not foreshadowing at all. Just wishful thinking. I know there is plenty of foreshadowing in the text that potrays Jon as King. This one is a lot weaker than many others though. And I think GRRM's style is more like making it to be the seventh ruby or the 14th mark that Daemon makes on the tree in Harrenhal sort of a thing. Looks a lot neater. Anyway, "Kings hiding under Snow" isn't really equivalent to "A King hiding as Snow" while the seventh ruby thing is more thematically fitting and more satisfying.

I'm surprised that people who should know better can be skeptical in cases like this. As if accidental – as opposed to purposeful – irony is the more likely option.

I'm merely saying that there is much better foreshadowing in the text than this particular one. :)

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Regarding Lyanna's remarks about Robert, I feel her cynicism makes more sense if it comes after she has actually observed him. I agree that Ned was functioning as a go between, but at the tourney. I also think it is much more likely that she would have picked up the gossip about Robert and his bastard in the Vale at the tourney rather than such news reaching Winterfell so quickly.



And it would have had to be quick, since we can be reasonably confident that Mya Stone was born in 281 (late 280 at latest) based upon her age as observed by Catelyn (17-18 in 298) and as relayed in the final Alayne chapter (19), which takes place almost halfway through the year 300.



I won't repost the quotes Ser Leftwich already provided, but the first clearly indicates that the "long ago night in Winterfell" occurred after Mya's birth (barring some other bastard from the Vale turning up) in order for Ned to experience holding the infant Mya he had to have been present at the Eyrie during late 280 or early 281. At some point prior to the False Spring there was presumably a winter, which may have made travel to the north difficult if not impossible. We know from the second quote Ser Leftwich provided that Ned came to the tourney from the Eyrie with Robert and Jon. In order for him to have been at WF before the tourney and after Mya's birth, it seems we would have to consign him to long weeks of arduous and improbable winter travel, and a round trip at that to put him back at the Eyrie in time to descend to the Riverlands for the tourney which we are fairly confident occurred in 281.



I happen to find it more logical and elegant to think that the young people all attended the tourney together, which gave Lyanna and Robert a chance to meet and observe each other (though Lyanna seems to have been the more observant of the pair ;)), and then the Stark children returned to their home together so that their father could make the announcements and arrangements for the two upcoming marriages. Back to where this started at the end of the last thread, Brandon and Ned then departed for Riverrun and the Eyrie respectively. Speculation arises with Lyanna's movements at this time, but I think interpreted in the way I've laid out, we actually have textual support for her being in the north and then traveling south in between the tourney and the "abduction." Obvs, I withhold judgement on her actual movements immediately prior to the "abduction" until further information is available, though I have my strong suspicion that The Inn at the Crossroad (site of another high profile abduction) will be involved.


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Hi folks. Might've found something for you. :)

Here it goes. They're talking about whoring and carnal relationships out of wedlock. Clearly, that is not a charge one could lay at the door of Eddard Stark, meaning, well you know. :lol: This here is Eddard himself proclaiming that jon is not his son - all his children are trueborn.

Great minds think alike :P I posted the very observation in the previous thread, before the, uh, carnal pleasures took over, or perhaps before the merging; either way, it was washed down into sewers of history.

In other words, yes, in Ned's own very first PoV, GRRM tells us black on white that Ned is not the type to have extramarital sex and father a bastard.

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I would like to answer a question from the previous thread, where it was asked how long Lyanna was missing, and whether or not it was possible she had been missing for 2 years, since apparently, there are people on threads suggesting this.



Before I begin my story with lots and lots of numbers :) I'd like to cite my source: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84563-most-precise-asoiaf-timeline-in-existence/


The most precise ASOIAF time line in existence (according to the OP at least). The document provided there is huge and wonderful, truly. But, more importantly, I ignored the time line part, and looked at the distances and travel speed parts. I have actually taken my maps from the Lands of Ice and Fire to try and calculate whether or not the distances are representative to one another. And the answer is "Yes, they are."



So here I begin:



First, we sum up some facts:


(1) Lyanna was 16 when she died in 283 AC, so she was born in 267 AC. When she died the Rebellion had just ended.


(2) Robert's Rebellion had lasted close to a year.


(3) Brandon died in 282 AC, one of the events which sparked the beginning of Roberts Rebellion.



Concluding from (1), (2) and (3), there was about a year in between Lyanna's death and Brandon/Rickards deaths.



(4) Brandon was on his way from Winterfell to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna's disappearance.


(5) Brandon died several days before he was to wed Catelyn (as said so by Ned).


(6) Brandon was 20 when he died.


(7) Brandon was also 20 when he fought a duel against Petyr Baelish, who was 15 at the time, when his marriage to Catelyn was made public. After this duel, Brandon left, and vowed to Catelyn they would marry upon his return.



(8) When Aegon was born, Rhaegar was present in KL, as the maesters spoke to him, and he met with Elia and baby Aegon to name the child and play on his harp.


(9) Rhaenys was 3 when she died in 283 AC, so she was born in 280 AC.


(10) Aegon was born in 282 AC, since he was about 1 year old when he died in 283 AC.


(11) Harrenhall happened in 281 AC.


(12) Elia was at Harrenhal with Rhaegar, Aerys etc. No pregnancy on her part has been mentioned.


(13) A pregnancy takes 9 months. Since the Martells are fond of mentioning the pregnancies in their families which took less than 9 months (like how Elia was born after only 8 months of pregnancy), and nothing such has been mentioned about Elia, we can assume Elia's pregnancy of Aegon lasted the full 9 months.



Since we don't know where Lyanna was when she disappeared (though it cannot have been Winterfell, since Rickard was there and he would have noticed before Brandon did if she was missing, and thus he would have acted before Brandon), I've put her location at the middle of Westeros, and the most central structure I could find was Harrenhal.



Taken from the time line document: Distances:


From King's Landing to Harrenhal (Rhaegar, Dayne and Whent): 380 miles


From Harrenhal to ToJ (Rhaegar, Dayne, Whent, Lyanna): 1030 miles


From Riverrun to King's Landing: 750 miles


From Brandon's location to King's Landing: 860 miles


A raven's distance from King's Landing to Winterfell: 1685 miles


From Winterfell to King's Landing: 2010 miles


A raven's distance from King's Landing to the Eyrie: 670 miles



For my calculations, I have assumed the following: the smaller parties would have travelled at a fast pace. The fastest pace in the document for small parties is 50 miles per day. This includes a rest day per 3 days of travel. The ravens, at fast pace, travel about 334 miles per day when they travel longer than 4 days, and 364 miles per day when they travel 2 to 4 days.



Here we go, try to keep up.


From King's Landing to Harrenhal (Rhaegar, Dayne and Whent): 380 miles -> 10 days


From Harrenhal to ToJ (Rhaegar, Dayne, Whent, Lyanna): 1030 miles -> 27,5 days


From Riverrun to King's Landing: 750 miles


From Brandon's location to King's Landing: 860 miles -> 23 days


A raven's distance from King's Landing to Winterfell: 1685 miles -> 5 days


From Winterfell to King's Landing: 2010 miles -> 53 days


A raven's distance from King's Landing to the Eyrie: 670 miles -> 2-3 days



Also, I assume that about 7 days after Lyanna disappeared, Brandon learned of it (the news had to travel to Riverrun, a rider would have had to find Brandon). And that is assuming Brandon learned from Riverrun, and not Winterfell, since he would have been closer to Riverrun than Winterfell.



So Aegon get's born. Rhaegar is still around for a little while. Let's give him a fortnight. Then he disappears.


10 days later, he arrives at Lyanna's position. They leave for ToJ. 7 days later (=17), Brandon learns of Lyanna's disappearance. He rides for KL in 23 days (=40). There, he is imprisoned. A raven is send to KL to summon Rickard, which takes 5 days (=45). Rickard summons his bannermen and starts south, which we shall give a fortnight (=59). Rickard arrives in KL 53 days later, assuming he went by horse. If he went by ship, his voyage would be 29 days. But, assuming he went by horse, so he could meet his bannermen on the road (=102). Rickard and Brandon die and a raven flies from KL to the Eyrie to Jon Arryn, which takes 2 to 3 days. Let's say it arrived on the third day (=105).



So from the moment Rhaegar had left until Jon Arryn calls his banners, 104 days have passed (roughly 3,5 months).



Robert's Rebellion begins. It lasts, to quote GRRM, close to a year. I gave Rhaegar a fortnight after Aegon's birth to disappear. Together with the 3.5 months we know now have passed between Rhaegar's disappearance the the beginning of RR, that's a 4 month old baby Aegon.



The quote, close to a year, made me feel the rebellion did not last a full year, but a little less. So, about 10 months, my guts tell me. That would make Aegon 14 months old, so, about 1 year old, as Tywin had put it.



Now on to Lyanna. She disappeared about a month after Aegon's birth (fortnight + ten days = 24 days, so a little over 3 weeks). Which would set her having been gone until the moment of the Sack 13,25 months.



From KL to Storm's End is 480 miles, which comes down to 12.5 days of travel. From Storm's End to ToJ is 645 miles, which comes down to 17 days of travel. 13,25 months + 12,5 days + 17 days = 14,25 months. That would put Ned finding her at roughly 14 months after her disappearance. That is excluding the few days Ned would have taken to actually lift the siege at Storm's End.




So, to answer the questions: Yes, Lyanna's disappearance could have been around 15 months, though it will most likely be closer to 14 months. No, two full pregnancies would not be possible, even if both pregnancies ended premature (at, for example 8 months, which would be dangerous for both children). Also, a woman's body needs time to recover from a pregnancy and a birth, so there would have to be a few weeks/two months between birth #1 and conception #2. So no, no two pregnancies.


A miscarriage would add nothing to the story.


No, Lyanna cannot have been gone for 2 years. That would mean Rhaegar missed the conception and birth of his son, and we know he was present at both :P




I hope you all enjoyed my calculations. I truly hope I didn't make a counting mistake :)



Edit: as to why I would write all this, in addition to answer the questions: I totally love details, and this makes everything more complete in my eyes :)


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The point was that you cannot assume that there was any interaction between R+L following the KotLT hunt beyond a possible unmasking... no more than it would follow that after that unmasking the four of them had a group. Besides... one of Rhaegar's companions was Robert Baratheon. ("Excuse me Bob, while I have a roll in the hay with your beastie's sister?") I do agree that any future reveal of what exactly happened there will come via the BwB, as I believe Lem was one of the "hunters." ;)

As for the twins, yes that was an ironic reference to the sometimes suggested R+L=twins theory, which imo is the only way R+L left behind multiple offspring.

Hmmm, perhaps the search parties split up along the way while searching for the Knight of the Laughing Tree… This scenario is very common where any kind of dynamic search is involved, especially when the search party has so many chiefs & so few indians... Lyanna was smart enough to make sure that she was un-masked by the Pursuer that she had a fancy for...

--

Times were very different back in these days, but Is it not troubling that a grown man like Rheagar would read something in some old scrolls & develop an obsession for a 13-14 year old girl… That just seems rather strange to me, she never had a chance… Inexperienced as she was, she would have probably been powerless to resist his charm… & in the end, he killed her… I mean, how difficult would it have been to bring a Maester along on this trek in addition to the manipulated & pregnant child that was in tow...

Was Rheagar obsessed? was he normal? Both his wife & his supposed love interest had complications bearing children, yet he did not think to bring a Maester...

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I'm surprised that people who should know better can be skeptical in cases like this. As if accidental – as opposed to purposeful – irony is the more likely option.

I recognize the word play, and I do not think that GRRM made such a play in error; in fact, I feel that it was very purposeful.

However, I am not sold on the idea that Jon Snow will ever rise the thrown in the way that many seem to believe. I think that he is a prime example of what happens when a prophecy goes wrong… Sure, Jon will most likely supply the story with some sort of resolution, though probably not intentionally...

So I believe that GRRM's word play was no mistake, but was he handing out clues or red-herrings?

If he was handing out clues, then well, there is not really anything special about this story when compared to the next.

On the other hand, if he was dishing out red herrings in the hopes of ensnaring a majority of his readership in a giant snare, then that would be a feat worth discussing & it would set ASOIAF apart from other fantasy series.

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