Jump to content

R + L = J v 68


Stubby

Recommended Posts

Because he thought it was.

Rhaegar, as in-story character, might not have recognized the significance of the symbolism in the same way that the audience does.

ETA: You win the award for best straw man signature. Congrats.

So, all the discussion about Rhaegar kidnapping and impregnating Lyanna to create a child of Fire and Ice was because he didn't understand symbolism?

I thought that was the entire point of the argument actually... that he clearly understood it and had planned it for months.

I'm only talking about the song, not the rest of the vision.

And I'll actually answer my own question, but I'm surprised it hasn't come up. Rhaegar gives Aegon that song because he was conceived during a comet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, all the discussion about Rhaegar kidnapping and impregnating Lyanna to create a child of Fire and Ice was because he didn't understand symbolism?

I thought that was the entire point of the argument actually... that he clearly understood it and had planned it for months.

I'm only talking about the song, not the rest of the vision.

And I'll actually answer my own question, but I'm surprised it hasn't come up. Rhaegar gives Aegon that song because he was conceived during a comet.

No.

No.

Okay.

Okay.

The answer to your original question still stands: Rhaegar was wrong. Otherwise, the prophesied hero of the story wasn't seen onscreen until the fifth book of the series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, all the discussion about Rhaegar kidnapping and impregnating Lyanna to create a child of Fire and Ice was because he didn't understand symbolism?

I thought that was the entire point of the argument actually... that he clearly understood it and had planned it for months.

I'm only talking about the song, not the rest of the vision.

And I'll actually answer my own question, but I'm surprised it hasn't come up. Rhaegar gives Aegon that song because he was conceived during a comet.

Rhaegar loved Lyanna. That is given in the story. Why do you insist that he was only after an ice woman to impregnate?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We know that Rhaegar was constantly reading. Researching if you will. Why is it hard to grasp that he may have come across new information that led him to make new choices? Could have been


-something prophecy specific that led him to believe he had been incorrect in his interpretation


-something specific to either Elia or Lyanna that led him to believe he had been incorrect in his interpretation


-something specific about the child Aegon that led him to believe he had been incorrect in his interpretation


-some other thing we have no idea about yet



What is important to remember, imo, is that in story just about every "interpretation" of this prophecy so far has been wrong. We are continually reminded about the difficult nature of prophecy, including my favorite quote from Archmaester Marwyn:


"prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time."


Link to comment
Share on other sites

"prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time."

Always makes me shiver... :ack:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We know that Rhaegar was constantly reading. Researching if you will. Why is it hard to grasp that he may have come across new information that led him to make new choices? Could have been

-something prophecy specific that led him to believe he had been incorrect in his interpretation

-something specific to either Elia or Lyanna that led him to believe he had been incorrect in his interpretation

-something specific about the child Aegon that led him to believe he had been incorrect in his interpretation

-some other thing we have no idea about yet

Some 'dragon' dream that cleared the way ahead...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wince. I can't even repeat it, because I am male. But it seems easy enough for the girls to say . . . :P

They don't care :devil: how it affects us... :uhoh:

Aww, c'mon guys! I had no idea that would strike such a nerve! Presumably both Marwyn and Gorghan were male? :rolleyes:

Anyways, it does make the point effectively ;)

p.s. of course we care! :grouphug:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe the consensus was that Elia was just too weak to support another pregnancy, and therefore he moved on to his second option, which opportunistically presented itself in the form of a strong willed woman whom he may or may not have fallen for. The ironies presumably being that the pregnancy killed the more verile of the two women and actually came to fulfill the "central" head of the three headed dragon, unbeknowst to rhaegar.

And Aegon and Rhaenys died at Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch's hands on Tywin's orders, so that's strike one against House Lannister for Jon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

“A true man does what he will, not what he must.” AGoT p. 487 Now Cersei seems an odd source for this insight, but maybe Rhaegar was just doing something for himself, in starting a relationship with Lyanna.



Another important factor in when Rhaegar acted was timing. Means, motive, and opportunity are all vital. That Lyanna could be gotten to could be as important as that Rhaegar wanted to act.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the analysis, Rhaenys_T, well done. I believe when I first brought this up in the last thread, I estimated about 15 months.

The length of Lyanna's absence cannot be more than Aegon's age. When King's Landing fell his age is given as "12 months, give or take a turn or two."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We know that Rhaegar was constantly reading. Researching if you will. Why is it hard to grasp that he may have come across new information that led him to make new choices?

Yes, and there's already a clear precedent for this - Rhaegar once thought himself the PtwP. He already changed his mind at least once.

It's also made clear he struggled for understanding and was communicating with Aemon to figure it out - his grasp of the prophesy was fluid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could you link the source for that please? More proof for our argumentation that Lyanna could not have been pregnant twice! :D

Clearly, by the HotU vision, Rhaegar is present when Aegon was born. He is not going to abduct, or otherwise escort Lyanna someplace (the tower of joy) and return to King's Landing for Aegon's birth. From the HotU vision, Rhaegar's demeanor changes at the end, when he says that "there must be one more" indicating that it is at this point that he decides to take another wife.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Clearly, by the HotU vision, Rhaegar is present when Aegon was born. He is not going to abduct, or otherwise escort Lyanna someplace (the tower of joy) and return to King's Landing for Aegon's birth. From the HotU vision, Rhaegar's demeanor changes at the end, when he says that "there must be one more" indicating that it is at this point that he decides to take another wife.

I meant the "twelve months, give or take a turn or two" part. That sounds like a GRRM quote :)

The rest I had concluded myself also, so I agree! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I meant the "twelve months, give or take a turn or two" part. That sounds like a GRRM quote :)

The rest I had concluded myself also, so I agree! :D

Yes, 'tis an answer that GRRM gave. I think we had the reference near the end of the last thread . . .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...