R + L = J v 68

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

You forgot a couple of things that shorten the actual time of possible conception for 2 pregnancies.

@ Ser Creighton. I fear my question regarding your post was burried underneath all the new posts placed here since yesterday. :) But what did I forget? I'd like to add it.

You are making an assumption without using all of the facts. What about Ser Willem Darry?

I'm not making an assumption. I gave a way how Viserys could possibly have heard about it. I concluded that Viserys was the only source for Dany's knowledge about such things, and Viserys was a young boy at the time it happened, and thus would not have known everything.

Or do you mean that Ser Willem might have told Dany during their stay at the house with the red door? That might also be a possibility. I guess I assumed the information came from Viserys, because Dany usually says "Viserys told me" or something similar when it's about Rhaegar, or her father,

So I wasn't assuming. I simply forgot about Ser Willem. But children can form memories they can remember later in life from the age of three onwards. Though I have no idea how long Ser Willem lived, I always feel like he didn't last many more years longer past those three.

[Ser Creighton]

I must say I am rather baffled. Two sources, who were actually in contact with Rhaegar (or in Viserys' case, per another person like Rhaella), independently of each other provide a piece of information confirmed by a third, entirely independent source, and you call it coincidence?

I think perception would be a better word. Perception can do amazing things to people and for people. I believe Martin also refers to it as perception or "the perception." And yes he likes to mess with it. So personally I wouldn't put it past him. Just look at Jaime the perception is he was the Kingslayer and totally evil and all this crap. Martin turned that perception on it's ear.

Just wait till Bran goes evil Bran. :)

[Alia of the knife]

Getting back to Rhaegar and interpretation of prophesy, didn't Aerys have visions as well?

While Aerys was "mad," he wasn't necessarily wrong regarding Rhaegar, Rhaella, and specifically his fear of the North, via a certain knight in the tKotLT? I do think that Rhaegar was at Harrenhal to meet with the lords to get a feel for their leanings, and if they might support the idea of quietly setting Aerys aside.

I don't think Rhaegar had in mind to hurt his father, but speculate to become Regent. I think his father was something that Rhaegar struggled with, possibly a love/hate relationship producing the tensions that Martin alluded to fleshing out.

If this is true, then the foolhardiness of playing at prophesy or trying to interpret it becomes another irony for Aerys as well, because Lyanna as tKotLT is both Aerys savior and destroyer in a sense.

In sending Rhaegar out to look for tKoLT, he sends his son into the arms of the woman that would eventually help bring down his House, though in the short term, she possibly bought Aerys time in distracting Rhaegar from what he likely intended to do in the beginning, which would make his statement to Jaimie about having done something earlier about Aerys even more haunting.

And yet, she would also be the linchpin in any doubts Rhaegar had about doing something about his father, because while Aerys still sat the throne as king, he would likely be unable to keep Lyanna, or she would always be in constant danger.

[MtnLion]

Rhaegar supposedly let her leave and set himself on the task of making tPPWP.

I don't understand this. Aemon reveals that Prince Rhaegar thought that he was the Prince that was Promised until after Aegon's birth.

[Iona]

It's an odd thing that Ser Willem Darry died when he did. After Oberyn and the Sea Lord of Braavos visited him to sign the pact.

Vis is a tough one, because he really saw things how he wanted too, does he ever call his father crazy? I mean Vis had tunnel vision and there was no getting around him or through to him when we actually meet him in the books. I can't actually say after meeting Vis that Darry did all that good of a job with him.

This is what Selmy says regarding Viserys and daddy's madness:

“Was my father truly mad?” she blurted out. Why do I ask that? “Viserys said this talk of madness was a ploy of the Usurper’s...”

“Viserys was a child, and the queen sheltered him as much as she could. Your father always had a little madness in him, I now believe. Yet he was charming and generous as well, so his lapses were forgiven. His reign began with such promise... but as the years passed, the lapses grew more frequent, until. ..”

With regards to Darry, I guess Viserys was a bit of a challenge already when they fled, since Barristan does also mention that Viserys already showed signs of being "his father's son" at a young age.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Getting back to Rhaegar and interpretation of prophesy, didn't Aerys have visions as well?

While Aerys was "mad," he wasn't necessarily wrong regarding Rhaegar, Rhaella, and specifically his fear of the North, via a certain knight in the tKotLT? I do think that Rhaegar was at Harrenhal to meet with the lords to get a feel for their leanings, and if they might support the idea of quietly setting Aerys aside.

I don't think Rhaegar had in mind to hurt his father, but speculate to become Regent. I think his father was something that Rhaegar struggled with, possibly a love/hate relationship producing the tensions that Martin alluded to fleshing out.

If this is true, then the foolhardiness of playing at prophesy or trying to interpret it becomes another irony for Aerys as well, because Lyanna as tKotLT is both Aerys savior and destroyer in a sense.

In sending Rhaegar out to look for tKoLT, he sends his son into the arms of the woman that would eventually help bring down his House, though in the short term, she possibly bought Aerys time in distracting Rhaegar from what he likely intended to do in the beginning, which would make his statement to Jaimie about having done something earlier about Aerys even more haunting.

And yet, she would also be the linchpin in any doubts Rhaegar had about doing something about his father, because while Aerys still sat the throne as king, he would likely be unable to keep Lyanna, or she would always be in constant danger.

Wait. What did Rhaella do?

[Ser Creighton]

@ Ser Creighton. I fear my question regarding your post was burried underneath all the new posts placed here since yesterday. :) But what did I forget? I'd like to add it.

I'm not making an assumption. I gave a way how Viserys could possibly have heard about it. I concluded that Viserys was the only source for Dany's knowledge about such things, and Viserys was a young boy at the time it happened, and thus would not have known everything.

Or do you mean that Ser Willem might have told Dany during their stay at the house with the red door? That might also be a possibility. I guess I assumed the information came from Viserys, because Dany usually says "Viserys told me" or something similar when it's about Rhaegar, or her father,

So I wasn't assuming. I simply forgot about Ser Willem. But children can form memories they can remember later in life from the age of three onwards. Though I have no idea how long Ser Willem lived, I always feel like he didn't last many more years longer past those three.

Sorry I should of written it down at the time, but was busy. Off the cuff, I believe you based the timeline off how long Lyanna was missing. But there is another Timeline, Rhaegars timeline. First and I don't know if Martin would include this but Lyanna has to have another cycle to pregnant which is 2-3 weeks with only about 6 days in a month according to the APA. But I am not sure Martin would get that in depth. But with Rhaegar has to be there for two kids I am assuming, I hear that's kind of how it works. But he wasn't there for her entire abduction.

So Rhaegar from the TOJ to KL.

The period of time it took him to assemble the Army which took weeks at least. According to Martin in an interview people often mess up how long things take in Westeros and points out that assembling an army in the south could take 6 weeks or more and in the north it could take months. They sent a letter to Tywin and waited for a reply, they sent men to the bells to find and bring back the remnants of that army, an Army marched from Dorne to KL, etc. Rhaegar was at KL for a decent amount of time or at least in the area of KL doing this for some time. 3 to 6 weeks is just a guess on my part.

Rhaegar to the trident and Ned returning for the sack is two weeks. I think you may have this but don't remember. But it looks like there is about a month and a half to two months that you can subtract for the supposed extra conception rather easily.

[Ygrain]

Do we know Viserys got his information from Rhaella? Do we know Rhaegar found it necessary to explain his feelings to his mother or that he had the time for that? No, we don't. But it makes logic to give a child who has lost everything the most favourable explanation possible. And Rhaella is known to hide the truth about a member of her family's true nature from Viserys to protect him.

Do we know that Selmy didn't know Rhaegar's heart? Yes, we do. Because Semly said so. All his assumptions about Rhaegar's feelings are just that - assumptions.

Gosh, we don't know. We don't know either. We do know that Viserys spent 9 months in the company of the one person who reasonably might have known, Rhaella, and then even more time with another person who might have possessed the knowledge, Willem Darry. Based on this, you cannot claim that Viserys' knowledge is "just coincidence" because there is a reasonable scenario how he might have obtained true information.

As for Barristan, the same applies - he was in direct touch with Rhaegar, and indeed could have heard himself. Really, after Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna for months, a public confession that he loved her was hardly the news of the day. Saying that Barristan's assessment of Rhaegar's feelings towards her is just an assumption is exactly that - an assumption.

All in all, you're using the same tactics as many a R+L detractor - trying to discredit the individual pieces and ignore that the sum of them pointing in the same direction is significant. You have Viserys AND Barristan AND Rhaegar's own last word, AND "tower of joy" for the place where he and Lyanna spent time together, from the man who was generally melancholic. No coincidence here.

[Alia of the knife]

@Mtn. Lion:

Thanks for the clarification. :bowdown:

Anath:

Martin has said time and again why he writes, and citing his influences. And yes, I'm assuming that Martin places the character of Rhaegar as a tragic one. He is fighting the forces of "good and evil," within the confines of his heart.

But, it's in conflict with what is "right," which is to honor his wife, a woman he is fond of but does not love, and wanting the woman he does love and perhaps can't live without.

It is the human heart in conflict with itself as Faulkner stated.

In terms of what is "obvious," I think for all Rhaegar's pedigree, looks, and accomplishments, he was socially awkward on an individual level hence Danys statement on her brother sounding so "sour" to which Selmy replied that not "sour" and paraphrasing here, not the life of the party either, though as a politician speaking to the masses he might have excelled.

But, in terms of love and courtship, which he never would have had the opportunity to do as his marriage was arranged for him, I think his reactions would have been rather clumsy and yes, obvious to everyone which is why when I read his riding past his wife, it wasn't that he was driven to dishonor, or insult Elia, but simply rushing headlong to what he wanted.

I suspect that is a factor why all the smiles died, because it was just so not in his nature to do such.

It was said he was the one who gave the Tower of JOY, it's name.

Because we use this term all the time, as fans we've become a little numb to how just over the top this name is, but also the implications of the power the word "JOY."

Joy: "a feeling of great pleasure and happiness. Delight, jubilation, triumph, exultation, glee, exhilaration, exuberance, elation, euphoria, bliss, ecstasy, rapture, "

So yes, I don't think it took an insider to know what Rhaegars feelings for Lyanna were, including Selmy.

[Anath]

All in all, you're using the same tactics as many a R+L detractor - trying to discredit the individual pieces and ignore that the sum of them pointing in the same direction is significant. You have Viserys AND Barristan AND Rhaegar's own last word, AND "tower of joy" for the place where he and Lyanna spent time together, from the man who was generally melancholic. No coincidence here.

All in all, you're using the same tactics as many a R+L worshippers - cherrypicking the parts you like and keeping silence on the ones you don't like. Viserys also said Rhaegar died for the woman he loved. Selmy was even more direct - he said that thousands died because of Rhaegar's love for Lyanna. Meaning, they both claimed the war was due to Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions. And we know how well such a sugestion sits with you, so this part of the sentence we can ignore. The part where Selmy said he loved Lyanna we can accept. Never mind that he also said he didn't know Rhaegar's heart.

Did you, by any chance, miss the part where I repeatedly stated I believed in Rhaegar's love for Lyanna?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sorry I should of written it down at the time, but was busy. Off the cuff, I believe you based the timeline off how long Lyanna was missing. But there is another Timeline, Rhaegars timeline. First and I don't know if Martin would include this but Lyanna has to have another cycle to pregnant which is 2-3 weeks with only about 6 days in a month according to the APA. But I am not sure Martin would get that in depth. But with Rhaegar has to be there for two kids I am assuming, I hear that's kind of how it works. But he wasn't there for her entire abduction.

So Rhaegar from the TOJ to KL.

The period of time it took him to assemble the Army which took weeks at least. According to Martin in an interview people often mess up how long things take in Westeros and points out that assembling an army in the south could take 6 weeks or more and in the north it could take months. They sent a letter to Tywin and waited for a reply, they sent men to the bells to find and bring back the remnants of that army, an Army marched from Dorne to KL, etc. Rhaegar was at KL for a decent amount of time or at least in the area of KL doing this for some time. 3 to 6 weeks is just a guess on my part.

Rhaegar to the trident and Ned returning for the sack is two weeks. I think you may have this but don't remember. But it looks like there is about a month and a half to two months that you can subtract for the supposed extra conception rather easily.

I indeed hadn't added Rhaegar returning from ToJ to KL, but only because we don't know how long he was at KL before he left for the Trident. I didn't try to calculate anything from what happened during the Rebellion. I am going to start a thread about this, and once I have the duration of time between Aegon's birth and Lyanna's death figured out precise enough, I am going to start to fill in the Rebellion itself. I already have notes about that.

You are right, of course, Rhaegar has to be present to get Lyanna pregnant :p But seeing as how Ned finds Lyanna not that long after, she was already pregnant.

The answer to the question "could Lyanna have been pregnant twice?" or to "Could Lyanna have been missing for two years?" are both easily answered thanks to a source that Lady Gwynhyfar and MtnLion provided me with. GRRM has said that Aegon, at the time of his death, was 12 months old, give or take a moon's turn or two. So his maximum age was 14 months. Rhaegar was still in KL after the birth (though it is unknown for how long), since he spoke to the maesters, who then told him what this birth had done to Elia. Aegon dies maximum 14 months later, and Ned's journey from KL to ToJ (including a stop at Storm's End to end the siege and learn about Lyanna's location) takes app. a month, give or take a few days.

That comes down to: 15 months after Aegon's birth, Lyanna dies. And as you say, it is necessary for Rhaegar to be present for the impregnating. It takes Rhaegar about 2 weeks to reach Lyanna. She can't possibly have been pregnant twice, and she was missing for about 14 months.

When I reach the stage where I start to fill in what happened during the Rebellion, I'll definitly include your information about Rhaegar assembling the army and such. It makes sense that it took quite some time. For example, for Robb it took 2 full weeks, and he met about half of his men along the way during his march.

But thank you for adding your thoughts :)

And hey, when you're busy, you're busy. I just saw the enormous amounts of posts that had been posted in between your post and when I posted, and I figured that it would be burried underneath all of those :p It happens..

Sorry I should of written it down at the time, but was busy. Off the cuff, I believe you based the timeline off how long Lyanna was missing. But there is another Timeline, Rhaegars timeline. First and I don't know if Martin would include this but Lyanna has to have another cycle to pregnant which is 2-3 weeks with only about 6 days in a month according to the APA. But I am not sure Martin would get that in depth. But with Rhaegar has to be there for two kids I am assuming, I hear that's kind of how it works. But he wasn't there for her entire abduction.

:D :cool4: :rofl:

[Anath]

@Mtn. Lion:

Thanks for the clarification. :bowdown:

But, it's in conflict with what is "right," which is to honor his wife, a woman he is fond of but does not love, and wanting the woman he does love and perhaps can't live without.

It is the human heart in conflict with itself as Faulkner stated.

Again, do we have other sources for Rhaegar being fond of Elia than Selmy's perception? Because we know only about two instances of his treatment of her and they show anything but fondness.

As I see it, Rhaegar's conflict wasn't such a big one where feelings were concerned.

[Ser Creighton]

Getting back to Rhaegar and interpretation of prophesy, didn't Aerys have visions as well?

While Aerys was "mad," he wasn't necessarily wrong regarding Rhaegar, Rhaella, and specifically his fear of the North, via a certain knight in the tKotLT? I do think that Rhaegar was at Harrenhal to meet with the lords to get a feel for their leanings, and if they might support the idea of quietly setting Aerys aside.

I don't think Rhaegar had in mind to hurt his father, but speculate to become Regent. I think his father was something that Rhaegar struggled with, possibly a love/hate relationship producing the tensions that Martin alluded to fleshing out.

If this is true, then the foolhardiness of playing at prophesy or trying to interpret it becomes another irony for Aerys as well, because Lyanna as tKotLT is both Aerys savior and destroyer in a sense.

In sending Rhaegar out to look for tKoLT, he sends his son into the arms of the woman that would eventually help bring down his House, though in the short term, she possibly bought Aerys time in distracting Rhaegar from what he likely intended to do in the beginning, which would make his statement to Jaimie about having done something earlier about Aerys even more haunting.

And yet, she would also be the linchpin in any doubts Rhaegar had about doing something about his father, because while Aerys still sat the throne as king, he would likely be unable to keep Lyanna, or she would always be in constant danger.

There seems to be an oddity that ties into your post, Aerys supposedly went to HH because he didn't trust Rhaegar because of the info he was given by Varys. But he trusted him with the KOTLT, and later it is written that the only person he did trust was Rhaegar and he was desperate to find him. Really want some insight into Rhaegar/Aerys. I am also wondering if the reason Rhaegar left Lyanna at the tower was not his father but because of Varys. Varys is all indignant about the death of Elia and her babes yet he is most likely working for the Blackfyres or is one and his whole bald thing is a twisted play on Egg his own personal joke.

[Alia of the knife]

@Rhaenys_ Targaryen:

Varys was on a whispering campaign against both Rhaegar and Rhaella, perpetuating Aerys paranoia that they were plotting against him, which may or may not have been true.

I personally they believe were, but for the good of the realm and the safety of the family, but that is another thread.

Of all the people that intrigue me most, it's actually Rhaella.

@Anath:

I'm going to say that if Selmy was right about Aerys and Rhaellas relationship, he was right about Rhaegar and Elias. As I said, I think this is coming down to simply not liking the implications of Selmys observations.

He has his flaws, but they have to do with himself, not his observations of others outside himself.

@Ser Creighton:

I am anxious for Martin to flesh those details out as well.

For the sake of transparency, I think that Varys is a Blackfyre loyalist.

But I think its also a true statement that Varys cares about the good of the realm, and he thinks that a Blackfyre would have been better for the realm, which is why he may have worked to inspire the animosity between Rhaegar and Aerys, and to make sure that Rhaegar never sat the throne because it's also true that he and Rhaella were good, which would make it harder to bring to usher in the Blackfyres.

I think he truly liked Ned, and perhaps didn't have anything against Lyanna Stark, because it was nothing personal, but all about his political "policy."

[Ygrain]

All in all, you're using the same tactics as many a R+L worshippers - cherrypicking the parts you like and keeping silence on the ones you don't like. Viserys also said Rhaegar died for the woman he loved. Selmy was even more direct - he said that thousands died because of Rhaegar's love for Lyanna. Meaning, they both claimed the war was due to Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions. And we know how well such a sugestion sits with you, so this part of the sentence we can ignore. The part where Selmy said he loved Lyanna we can accept. Never mind that he also said he didn't know Rhaegar's heart.

Did you, by any chance, miss the part where I repeatedly stated I believed in Rhaegar's love for Lyanna?

The discussion was whether Viserys and Barristan might have had access to reliable information about Rhaegar's feelings and how the multiple sources corroborate to confirm the notion. There was not a word about the war or Rhaegar's portion of blame, so be so kind and keep your insinuations for yourself.

[Ser Creighton]

All in all, you're using the same tactics as many a R+L worshippers - cherrypicking the parts you like and keeping silence on the ones you don't like. Viserys also said Rhaegar died for the woman he loved. Selmy was even more direct - he said that thousands died because of Rhaegar's love for Lyanna. Meaning, they both claimed the war was due to Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions. And we know how well such a sugestion sits with you, so this part of the sentence we can ignore. The part where Selmy said he loved Lyanna we can accept. Never mind that he also said he didn't know Rhaegar's heart.

Did you, by any chance, miss the part where I repeatedly stated I believed in Rhaegar's love for Lyanna?

No need to start being antagonistic with the whole worshippers thing. That is a bit of a generalized insult to people you don't know. Let me know when you have read all 2000 plus of my posts so you can make that comment about me or anyone on this thread.

[Ser Creighton]

@Rhaenys_ Targaryen:

Varys was on a whispering campaign against both Rhaegar and Rhaella, perpetuating Aerys paranoia that they were plotting against him, which may or may not have been true.

I personally they believe were, but for the good of the realm and the safety of the family, but that is another thread.

Of all the people that intrigue me most, it's actually Rhaella.

Don't blame you, she is a huge mystery, I want to know about her too. And of course a few thousand other things I would not mind Martin parting with.

[Anath]

The discussion was whether Viserys and Barristan might have had access to reliable information about Rhaegar's feelings and how the multiple sources corroborate to confirm the notion. There was not a word about the war or Rhaegar's portion of blame, so be so kind and keep your insinuations for yourself.

Gladly. If you do the same, I mean.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Ha, suck it up Gwen, wind chill hit 40 below here yesterday, and we liked it. Kids were outside playing there shorts, old folks were going swimming.

By the way did I mention I live in the land of always winter and I am an Other.

You know those parts in the books where they say the cold hurts. Real real cold hurts, it burns. They were totally right.

And this is why I'm willing to deal with Minnesota winters.

Ha! I actually thought of you two after I posted this morning, because I know the worst New England winter doesn't hold a candle to your upper Midwest ones.

It's still ridiculously cold here, and this after being 54 degrees yesterday :p

[Anath]

No need to start being antagonistic with the whole worshippers thing. That is a bit of a generalized insult to people you don't know. Let me know when you have read all 2000 plus of my posts so you can make that comment about me or anyone on this thread.

Oh? So detractors isn't? It goes only one way?

Didn't mean to insult anyone and I apoligise if I did. I didn't know people took things so seriously.