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R + L = J v 68


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I've been thinking about the moon/sun/dragons story some more and I think I've found some more evidence for the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married (some of this has probably been discussed before).

We get two versions of the story. One from Doreah and one from Irri. In Doreah's version, the moon "wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat." (AGoT, Dany III). That brings to mind Robert's version of what happened to Lyanna (moon). She "wandered too close" to Rhaegar (fire/sun) and it wound up killing her (she "cracked from the heat"). Lyanna and the moon come off as victims in Doreah's version. But Irri says that's silly. The moon wasn't an egg that cracked when it got too close to the sun. The moon is the sun's wife ... suggesting that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married.

And to take the Lyanna/moon/wife thing a little further:

The moon's (Lyanna's) "veil of silk" sounds an awful lot like a wedding veil. Of course, they don't use wedding veils in Westeros, but that doesn't mean it can't be a clue to readers who are familiar with the image of a bridal veil. This is the chapter where (f)Arya weds Ramsay before the Heart Tree. I find that interesting, especially given the Arya/Lyanna parallels. "Abel" plays music at the wedding (putting us in mind of the story of Bael ... which puts us in mind of R+L). We also get another Perseus reference:

So, we've got a connection to Lyanna in the Tower of Joy. And Theon thinks about how no priests are involved in northern weddings (giving the reader a hint about how easy it might have been for Lyanna and Rhaegar to wed in secret in the Northern style). AND we get a big reference the Knight of the Laughing Tree, with all the R+L significance that brings:

A laughing weirwood tree.

And if all of that isn't enough to drive home the idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married when Jon was born, George gives us another moon/veil clue to really knock it out of the park:

This gives us an image of Lyanna as a bride, pregnant ("full moon") with Jon Snow.

The full moon symbolizes the Mother in the Maiden, Mother, Crone neopagan triple goddess.

)O( <-- Triple goddess simple. The two crescent moons flanking the full moon.

ETA: Google images for the triple goddess.

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I've been thinking about the moon/sun/dragons story some more and I think I've found some more evidence for the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married (some of this has probably been discussed before).

We get two versions of the story. One from Doreah and one from Irri. In Doreah's version, the moon "wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat." (AGoT, Dany III). That brings to mind Robert's version of what happened to Lyanna (moon). She "wandered too close" to Rhaegar (fire/sun) and it wound up killing her (she "cracked from the heat"). Lyanna and the moon come off as victims in Doreah's version. But Irri says that's silly. The moon wasn't an egg that cracked when it got too close to the sun. The moon is the sun's wife ... suggesting that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married.

And to take the Lyanna/moon/wife thing a little further:

The moon's (Lyanna's) "veil of silk" sounds an awful lot like a wedding veil. Of course, they don't use wedding veils in Westeros, but that doesn't mean it can't be a clue to readers who are familiar with the image of a bridal veil. This is the chapter where (f)Arya weds Ramsay before the Heart Tree. I find that interesting, especially given the Arya/Lyanna parallels. "Abel" plays music at the wedding (putting us in mind of the story of Bael ... which puts us in mind of R+L). We also get another Perseus reference:

So, we've got a connection to Lyanna in the Tower of Joy. And Theon thinks about how no priests are involved in northern weddings (giving the reader a hint about how easy it might have been for Lyanna and Rhaegar to wed in secret in the Northern style). AND we get a big reference the Knight of the Laughing Tree, with all the R+L significance that brings:

A laughing weirwood tree.

And if all of that isn't enough to drive home the idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married when Jon was born, George gives us another moon/veil clue to really knock it out of the park:

This gives us an image of Lyanna as a bride, pregnant ("full moon") with Jon Snow.

Really awesome work. Enjoying the read. :)

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snip

Really nice catches. You're on a roll.

He walked slowly, his footsteps echoing off black walls and dragons. Stone dragons who will never wake I pray.

The Wall is manned by the black brothers, and this could point to the stone dragon being at the Wall.

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The problem I have with this theory (although I'm totally on board with Ashara having slept with Brandon at Harrenhal), is that Barristan mentions that Ashara threw herself off the tower not that very long after having given birth to a stillborn girl.

The only possibility for both things to work, is if Brandon had gotten Ashara pregnant, she gave birth (or something happened to the child) and Ashara immediately got pregnant again, and had a stillborn girl.

The potential first child would be a little bit older than Aegon, I would presume.

As to why Ashara wouldn't use the moon tea: she was Dornish, and had an other attitude about such things most likely. Perhaps she didn't want to kill her unborn child?

Is it known when Ashara left Elia's service? I remember GRRM saying Ashara had been in Elia's service as Lady-in-waiting for the first couple of years of the marriage, but not the last year (IIRC). Perhaps that would give us a clue? Pregnant but unwed she would most likely not be allowed to stay at court.

Yes. I don't think she'd be able to stay at court. So depending on how long it took for Elia to wrap things up at Harrenhall and return to KL, we can guess that she didn't spend more than a few months more in her service, if the pregnancy is why she left. He also mentions in an SSM that Ashara was not "chained to the floor" of Starfall during the entire war, though by that time Brandon was dead.

Not all that crackpot, and certainly gives credence to the old adage about making plans only to have God laugh.

I always thought that we were meant to understand that Ashara became pregnant at Harrenhal, went back to Court and tried to hide it until it was impossible and was sent back to Starfall.

(She might be Dornish, but I'm cautious about judging the entire culture by the Martells. I think there is a difference in what the Martells can get away with and what the rest of the Dornish can get away with, a little like the Targaryens)

But, I think Ashara didn't take precautions because she loved the father and was aware pregnancy could be outcome.

I think its also possible that while Stark soldiers got the woman right and it is Ashara as Cat heard, as most gossip is, its skewed and its the wrong brother.

And going into the future, what was Edric Dayne really going to approach Ned about at the Tourney?

"Hey, I hear you had a thing for my Aunt."

No, I speculate that Ned meant to amend the dishonor to House Dayne and perhaps made arrangements for Arya to marry Edric, or Edric was going to propose it, but lost his nerve.

nice one, I can see Edric doing that.

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the moon is most often associated to female deities (or women in general, the moon cycle being associated to mensturation) - the triple Goddess for one:

or Luna:

There are male moon deities, but usually if the Sun God is male, the Moon God(-dess) is female - That's frequently the case in southern Europe, due to Greco-Roman mythology, though in Germanic mythology the Sun is female and the Moon is male.

Still there is one constant - they are both of the opposite gender. That is also what GRRM has implied in the bits of Essosi mythology we have access to... If Jon is to be another sun, well- I'm not sure how Sam fits in that...But, Val is bathed in moolight and there's a few theories out there that she's either a moonsinger or a sort of Valkyrie.

Yes I agree, the moon is associated with female deities.

I was just wondering allowed about Sam, because if that is the case then why is Sam compared to moons, particularly full moons?

A lot of what you had quoted was interesting though, I hadn't read too much about the triple Goddess (though I have been meaning to for my own work).

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Yes I agree, the moon is associated with female deities.

I was just wondering allowed about Sam, because if that is the case then why is Sam compared to moons, particularly full moons?

A lot of what you had quoted was interesting though, I hadn't read too much about the triple Goddess (though I have been meaning to for my own work).

Sam has a fat, round face and belly, similar to the belly of very pregnant woman (which is part of the origin of the moon analogy).

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Just wanted to say that I'm going to enjoy that upcoming write-up of quotes very much, and am looking forward to the part of the attempts at forging Lightbringer.

I just wrote something of it in the Jon Snow Azor Ahai prophecy - What is Salt thread.

And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

#1 didn't go so well. It was barely done, but then the sword broke already. Could that be because Lightbringer/the Prince needed to be a boy?

“Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast’s red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

#2 is very interesting since it mentions a Lion, and we know that Aegon (and even Rhaenys) were killed by a Lion/Lannister, Tywin, or rather Lannister men.

“A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes."

#3 really fits with Lyanna giving her life in (after) the birth, so I hope the theory is right. :D Even the "why I cannot say" is sure something because it didn't happen like that. (Unless the prophecy is a returning thing and it did happen the first time but now it's trying to find a different way to be fulfilled.)

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#1 didn't go so well. It was barely done, but then the sword broke already. Could that be because Lightbringer/the Prince needed to be a boy?

Could it be related to Rhaenys having salty Dornishmen appearance?

#2 is very interesting since it mentions a Lion, and we know that Aegon (and even Rhaenys) were killed by a Lion/Lannister, Tywin, or rather Lannister men.

Aegon's skull was bashed against the stones on the Wall. It shattered and split.

#3 really fits with Lyanna giving her life in (after) the birth, so I hope the theory is right. :D Even the "why I cannot say" is sure something because it didn't happen like that. (Unless the prophecy is a returning thing and it did happen the first time but now it's trying to find a different way to be fulfilled.)

As stated before, Jon got his appearance and traits from Lyanna.

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Could it be related to Rhaenys having salty Dornishmen appearance?

Aegon's skull was bashed against the stones on the Wall. It shattered and split.

As stated before, Jon got his appearance and traits from Lyanna.

The Rhaenys parallel has to do with water, not salt. It's water, lion, then Nissa Nissa. Find a Rhaenys/water connection and you might be on to something; I'm willing to buy Aegon/Lannisters for the lion.

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I think that response is pretty eh. You asked for a water connection.

I asked for a GOOD water connection. The Rhoynar thing seems flimsy to me, especially when it equally applies to Aegon. Then again, the lion thing applies to Rhaenys equally, so maybe the entire tack is wrong.

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I asked for a GOOD water connection. The Rhoynar thing seems flimsy to me, especially when it equally applies to Aegon. Then again, the lion thing applies to Rhaenys equally, so maybe the entire tack is wrong.

I think the Martell-water connection is a helluva lot stronger than the Aegon-lion one. He was killed by the Lion's mad dog ... or something!

I guess I'm just surprised that you were willing to buy an Aegon-lion connection, but not a Rhaenys(Dorne/Martell)-water one. Though I'm guessing that part of it is that maybe they don't work together. I mean, certainly you agree that the latter is an actual connection, no?

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