R + L = J v 68

[lojzelote]

As for Rhaegar's "fondness":

"“And if he does not fail? What will Your Grace do then?”
“Her duty.” The word felt cold upon her tongue. “You saw my brother Rhaegar wed. Tell me, did
he wed for love or duty?”
The old knight hesitated. “Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever,
with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her.”
Fond, thought Dany. The word spoke volumes. I could become fond of Hizdahr zo Loraq, in time.
Perhaps."

It sounds as if Dany thinks that all in all Rhaegar must have been rather lukewarm about Elia. Perhaps we're supposed to think the same thing. Complexities of the English language escape me sometimes. I imagine warmer feelings if someone says "very fond of sb". :dunno:

BTW, in which book is it mentioned that there was "no love" between Aerys and Rhaella? I tried to find it in ADwD with search function, but no result. But GRRM certainly uses it when he wants to imply that at least one party despises the other:

“I see.” Jon’s tone was wary. What does he want of me? “I have no love for Lord Bolton or his
son, but the Night’s Watch cannot take up arms against them. Our vows prohibit—”

"Davos had no love for the red priestess, but he dare not let Lady Leona go unanswered."

“A fine plan if what you want is every hand in the north raised against you. Half is more than
none. The Umbers have no love for the Boltons. If Whoresbane has joined the Bastard, it can only be
because the Lannisters hold the Greatjon captive.”

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

@Ygrain:

That IS intriguing, and makes sense in terms of parallels.

We know that GRRM confirmed that Rhaegar said Lyannas name, so indeed, whose name did Elia utter? Arthur......... :drool:

Yes! :thumbsup:

[Anath]

It worked until Elia was incapable of delivering further heirs.

It worked until he crowned someone else at Harrenhall. Of course, that's if we speak fondness or whatever there was, not political implications. Showing preference to someone else than one's wife in this way at a public event isn't exactly a fond thing to do. And I don't believe it was awkwardness or whatever. He was the Crown Prince and he knew what was expected of him, what was the normal thing to do. Love came, fondness or whatever went through the window.

[Anath]

BTW, in which book is it mentioned that there was "no love" between Aerys and Rhaella? I tried to find it in ADwD with search function, but no result.

Nowhere. I don't have the original with me, so I went just by memory. It might have been "fondness". My bad, I shouldn't have put it in quotes.

As to the rest of your post, it reminded me of that line in Anna Karenina about spouses who don't love each other but still hold mutial respect. It said something about respect being something that just filled (or tried to fill, I don't remember) the void where love should have been,

[MtnLion]

It worked until he crowned someone else at Harrenhall. Of course, that's if we speak fondness or whatever there was, not political implications. Showing preference to someone else than one's wife in this way at a public event isn't exactly a fond thing to do. And I don't believe it was awkwardness or whatever. He was the Crown Prince and he knew what was expected of him, what was the normal thing to do. Love came, fondness or whatever went through the window.

You are conveying too much importance to the crown. Remember that the Whents planned to give it to their sister. It is merely a prize. It seems very apparent that Rhaegar only leaves his association with Elia when she is not longer capable of bearing children. That is when he turns from Elia in the vison of the HotU.

[Alia of the knife]

Ashara? :drool:

Could be. Could be.

[Anath]

You are conveying too much importance to the crown. Remember that the Whents planned to give it to their sister. It is merely a prize. It seems very apparent that Rhaegar only leaves his association with Elia when she is not longer capable of bearing children. That is when he turns from Elia in the vison of the HotU.

If it was only a prize, people would have kept smiling. Robert would have been thrilled. And I don't remember any of the Whents having a wife at the time. It was clearly a social thing.

Rhaegar gave a first indication (that we know about) about his feelings for Elia at Harrenhall. He was ready to break the norms to her detriment.

[Ygrain]

Ashara? :drool:

I think that would be my choice number two :-)

[Ser Creighton]

When Dany asks why he crowned Lyanna and asks if Elia treated Rhaegar ill, Selmy responded with.

"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brothers heart (so he indicates he is unsure), your Grace. The princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, but her her health was ever delicate." He actually indicates her health may have played a part. And we know she could no longer have children.

Now Cersei tended to not like Elia, but I am not one to count her as the voice of reason as she had her own agenda and really never has gotten over not wedding Elia.

In Jaimes dream Rhaegar is not happy about the death of his wife and kids. While only a dream the idea comes from inside Jaime. Of course there is the Weirwood theory but it no less changes the idea.

Selmy does say there was a fondness there and directly compares it to the lack of fondness her Father and mother had Dance ch 23.

In Ch 67 Dance, thinks of Elia to himself as being a good and gentle woman. Supporting his own verbal statements.

Oberyn has a memory of young Elia who saw new born baby Tyrion and thought he was adorable and did not place the typical westeros judgments on him. Swords ch 38.

Selmy was never sure what was in Rhaegars heart and also didn't think it was within him to be Happy. He seemed to have a sense of Doom about him. Swrds 42

Now personally I think Rhaegar had visions like some other Targs did and the place he went to meditate was Summerhall, and nobody was allowed to go with him. He always came back with a song.

"When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings, and sing of twilights and tears, and the death of kings, you could not help but feel he was sining of himself and those he loved."

To me this always indicates Rhaegar was somewhat prophetic and I believe Bloodraven had his hand in this as well. But note the word Selmy used. Loved. While sad, and not sure of what was in his heart, when Rhaegar sang you could feel love. My own feelings tend to lean towards a very tragic figure who may have done what he had to do, but that does not mean he did not care about Elia, Lyanna, his children his family. In fact everything may have been for them. I often Speculate that the Tower of Joy is named not for him and Lyanna but for everyone, he was trying to save the world. I am positive he new Winter is coming. Doing what you have to do and not caring are two different things and you can do both.

Oberyn seemed more than willing to die to avenge his sister, who he loved very much, he tells the story of Balor Breakwind, in which Elia seems rather adorable.

On a side note it is interesting to note that Elia's mother and Jo Lannister had been close with Rhaella, and Rhaella may have very well arranged Rhaegars marriage or played a big part in it.

The wife of the Dragon prince is single out in the KOTLT story as being one of the fairer maids.

So there appears to be some details about Elia from within and without from various characters.

The detractors for Elia seem to be Vis, Cersei, and JonCon. Though they don't really say anything bbad about her other than flat chested, sickly or weak, not good enough for Rhaegar who all three have a distorted view of. Often times there complaints come off as excuse making.

Elia actually seemed to be a pretty good person, so naturally in the books she dies a horrible death. I don't think it is a stretch to think Rhaegar was fond of her, Oberyn is about as fickle as it gets but he loved his sister and enjoyed being around her. Selmy can be tactful but he makes direct comparisons, and never even thinks a bad ting about Elia, he thinks to himself good things about her.

[Alia of the knife]

That's what I think, as well :-)

It would make a nice switch on the classical Guinevere-Arthur-Lancelot triangle. Arthur Dayne is very much the perfect knight, and so was Lancelot, but for his sin, he wasn't worthy of the Grail. Arthur has been perfect like Mary Poppins so far, and this would certainly be a flaw I could forgive.

Me too.

I think with Martin it's the "quiet ones" you have to watch, and right now that would be Elia and Rhaella who I think will have a huge impact on the Story. :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Why did he take Elia to HH? He didn't have too, the Queen was not there, and she had a baby at time who was about 1 at the most. What Barristan said was Rhaegar was very fond of her. Why would he be? Well she was kind, clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. Does it seem he is being dishonest? He said a lot of nice things about Elia. Did he say a lot of nice things about Aerys. Did he say Rhaegar was a great warrior?

Yes Selmy is being tactful, but that does not mean he was being dishonest. You agree with what he said about Aery and Rhaella but think he is wrong about what he says about Elia and Rhaegar. Your contradicting your own logic there. He said no love about one couple and said fondness about another. Why is one the truth and another not if by your own account he is being equally tactful? Why is Elia at HH, and whoever said he had to wed Elia? The person making the assumption is you, your are assuming Selmy is wrong, the evidence for the fondness in fact comes from Selmy.

Now it is true that Targs are fickle creatures, and we don't know enough about Elia and Rhaegar, or Lyanna, or Jon, or, Aerys, of Rhaella, or Ashara, or Aruthur Dayne, Varys, Ned, all the events surrounding the abduction, all the events within the abduction.

But with the information given Rhaegar was fond of Elia, oh and Howland Reed thought she was hot.

Rhaella had a baby of one year old? In 281 AC, Viserys was 6 years old. Rhaenys, Elia's daughter, was 2.

Interesting here is that Aerys sends Jaime to KL to protect Rhaella and Viserys. No mention of Rhaenys there. Did Rhaenys come to Harrenhal? She also isn't mentioned to be there, though that could be because Meera described people at the feast, and Rhaenys would have been too young to attend such a feast. And Ned only describes Elia and Lyanna and Rhaegar at the end of the tourney, when Rhaegar passes over Elia in favour for Lyanna.

So Rhaenys could very well have been at Harrenhal.

I think Barristans "Rhaegar was fond of Elia" can have been a subtle way to say that the marriage was a political one, and they were civil to each other, and that's it. The fact that Elia was kind, clever, sweet, and had a gentle heart and wit doesn't automatically mean Rhaegar had to be in love with her, or had to be drawn to her in any way. She was a sweet and kind person. Just not the kind of person Rhaegar could fall in love with, apparently.

We don't know enough about these characters indeed to make a definite call about it, I agree with that.

But where did you get the idea from that Howland Reed thought Elia was hot?

[Julian Rayne]

You are conveying too much importance to the crown. Remember that the Whents planned to give it to their sister. It is merely a prize. It seems very apparent that Rhaegar only leaves his association with Elia when she is not longer capable of bearing children. That is when he turns from Elia in the vison of the HotU.

There's the tale of the Dragonknight entering a tourney as a mystery knight, the Knight of Tears, so that he could crown his sister rather than Aegon the Unworthy's mistress. On the other hand, Ser Balman claimed that he would have crowned Cersei at whatever tourney he won had she been present even though he had a wife. Maybe the importance of the crown varies from tourney to tourney.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

BTW, in which book is it mentioned that there was "no love" between Aerys and Rhaella? I tried to find it in ADwD with search function, but no result. But GRRM certainly uses it when he wants to imply that at least one party despises the other:

All I could find for you was this from Jaime in aFfC:

A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night.

[Arya kiddin']

* Sees people here are suggesting Ashara x Elia . Faith in humanity restored a little. Leaves*

[Alia of the knife]

When Dany asks why he crowned Lyanna and asks if Elia treated Rhaegar ill, Selmy responded with.

"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brothers heart (so he indicates he is unsure), your Grace. The princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, but her her health was ever delicate." He actually indicates her health may have played a part. And we know she could no longer have children.

Now Cersei tended to not like Elia, but I am not one to count her as the voice of reason as she had her own agenda and really never has gotten over not wedding Elia.

In Jaimes dream Rhaegar is not happy about the death of his wife and kids. While only a dream the idea comes from inside Jaime. Of course there is the Weirwood theory but it no less changes the idea.

Selmy does say there was a fondness there and directly compares it to the lack of fondness her Father and mother had Dance ch 23.

In Ch 67 Dance, thinks of Elia to himself as being a good and gentle woman. Supporting his own verbal statements.

Oberyn has a memory of young Elia who saw new born baby Tyrion and thought he was adorable and did not place the typical westeros judgments on him. Swords ch 38.

Selmy was never sure what was in Rhaegars heart and also didn't think it was within him to be Happy. He seemed to have a sense of Doom about him. Swrds 42

Now personally I think Rhaegar had visions like some other Targs did and the place he went to meditate was Summerhall, and nobody was allowed to go with him. He always came back with a song.

"When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings, and sing of twilights and tears, and the death of kings, you could not help but feel he was sining of himself and those he loved."

To me this always indicates Rhaegar was somewhat prophetic and I believe Bloodraven had his hand in this as well. But note the word Selmy used. Loved. While sad, and not sure of what was in his heart, when Rhaegar sang you could feel love. My own feelings tend to lean towards a very tragic figure who may have done what he had to do, but that does not mean he did not care about Elia, Lyanna, his children his family. In fact everything may have been for them. I often Speculate that the Tower of Joy is named not for him and Lyanna but for everyone, he was trying to save the world. I am positive he new Winter is coming. Doing what you have to do and not caring are two different things and you can do both.

Oberyn seemed more than willing to die to avenge his sister, who he loved very much, he tells the story of Balor Breakwind, in which Elia seems rather adorable.

On a side note it is interesting to note that Elia's mother and Jo Lannister had been close with Rhaella, and Rhaella may have very well arranged Rhaegars marriage or played a big part in it.

The wife of the Dragon prince is single out in the KOTLT story as being one of the fairer maids.

So there appears to be some details about Elia from within and without from various characters.

The detractors for Elia seem to be Vis, Cersei, and JonCon. Though they don't really say anything bbad about her other than flat chested, sickly or weak, not good enough for Rhaegar who all three have a distorted view of. Often times there complaints come off as excuse making.

Elia actually seemed to be a pretty good person, so naturally in the books she dies a horrible death. I don't think it is a stretch to think Rhaegar was fond of her, Oberyn is about as fickle as it gets but he loved his sister and enjoyed being around her. Selmy can be tactful but he makes direct comparisons, and never even thinks a bad ting about Elia, he thinks to himself good things about her.

I actually always read Selmys statement as that he did really know, but thought it not the appropriate time to discuss it with Dany.

And I think that both Elia and Rhaegar were good people, just not good together.

And if Elia was use to Oberyns caustic wit, (which is not sweet), then Rhaegar may have been a let down in the fun, games and humor department.

[Anath]

But where did you get the idea from that Howland Reed thought Elia was hot?

Meera describes the wife of the Dragon Prince as the one of the most beautiful ladies at the tournament.

And for all her venom, Cersei thought Elia was black-eyed and flat-chested. That was the worst she could evidently come up with.

Aerys not mentioning Rhaenys might simply mean that as a girl, she wasn't worth a special protection. Rhaella was, after all, the Queen.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

*snip

Well summarised. As in real life, these characters are not black and white. In the grey areas it is possible to be "fond" of someone, especially someone one has a shared history with, at the same time one is passionately in love with another. This is yet another example of one of our favourite themes: the human heart in conflict with itself.

[Anath]

There's the tale of the Dragonknight entering a tourney as a mystery knight, the Knight of Tears, so that he could crown his sister rather than Aegon the Unworthy's mistress. On the other hand, Ser Balman claimed that he would have crowned Cersei at whatever tourney he won had she been present even though he had a wife. Maybe the importance of the crown varies from tourney to tourney.

Or maybe crowning the actual Queen is not considered a scandal. Ser Barristan thinks of the possibility of crowning Rhaella or even Elia had he won at Harrenhall.

[lojzelote]

You are conveying too much importance to the crown. Remember that the Whents planned to give it to their sister. It is merely a prize. It seems very apparent that Rhaegar only leaves his association with Elia when she is not longer capable of bearing children. That is when he turns from Elia in the vison of the HotU.

I wouldn't react favorably if my boyfriend gave the teddy bear he'd won at a carnival to another girl for no apparent reason at all, and all our classmates were there and saw it. <_< Take it as an advice into relationship. :P

[XSarellaX]

"A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night."

Who was burned before Dany was conceived?