R + L = J v 68

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

"A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night."

Who was burned before Dany was conceived?

The Mace and Dagger Hand, Lord Chelsted.

[The guy from the Vale]

Lord Chelsted, Aerys' penultimate Hand.

[MtnLion]

I wouldn't react favorably if my boyfriend gave the teddy bear he'd won at a carnival to another girl for no apparent reason at all, and all our classmates were there and saw it. <_< Take it as an advice into relationship. :P

On the other hand, would it enhance the princesses position? Could Rhaegar have easily explained it in private? (I am well beyond that situation in a relationship, and enjoy my wife; a 2012 Goldwing.)

[Anath]

On the other hand, would it enhance the princesses position? Could Rhaegar have easily explained it in private? (I am well beyond that situation in a relationship, and enjoy my wife; a 2012 Goldwing.)

No, since it was expected of him. The fact that he did the unexpected humiliated her. And since he humiliated her in public. an explanation in private would not do.

[MtnLion]

No, since it was expected of him. The fact that he did the unexpected humiliated her. And since he humiliated her in public. an explanation in private would not do.

How do we know that Elia was humiliated?

[Alia of the knife]

I wouldn't react favorably if my boyfriend gave the teddy bear he'd won at a carnival to another girl for no apparent reason at all, and all our classmates were there and saw it. <_< Take it as an advice into relationship. :P

I have to agree.

Giving the crown to your sister, (if your not a Targaryen), is "cute" and would be endearing to the crowd.

It might even bring a tear to the eye.

Giving it to your wife is smart.

Giving it to the woman who signs your "paycheck" like the Queen is politic.

Giving it to a woman who is not your wife, relative, or your "boss," AND is your cousins betrothed is going to raise some questions.

The crowd knew something was amiss, all smiles died, and Aerys was likely frothing at the mouth.

[lojzelote]

I have to agree.

Giving the crown to your sister, (if your not a Targaryen), is "cute" and would be endearing to the crowd.

It might even bring a tear to the eye.

Giving it to your wife is smart.

Giving it to the woman who signs your "paycheck" like the Queen is politic.

Giving it to a woman who is not your wife, relative, or your "boss," AND is your cousins betrothed is going to raise some questions.

The crowd knew something was amiss, all smiles died, and Aerys was likely frothing at the mouth.

Exactly! :)

[Ser Creighton]

I have to agree.

Giving the crown to your sister, (if your not a Targaryen), is "cute" and would be endearing to the crowd.

It might even bring a tear to the eye.

Giving it to your wife is smart.

Giving it to the woman who signs your "paycheck" like the Queen is politic.

Giving it to a woman who is not your wife, relative, or your "boss," AND is your cousins betrothed is going to raise some questions.

The crowd knew something was amiss, all smiles died, and Aerys was likely frothing at the mouth.

Yeah but what if she was younger, and better looking that your wife and had not had any kids to change her figure, it's ok then right?

[Alia of the knife]

In terms of all smiles dying and Elias reaction, I would imagine she would be the FIRST person the crowd would look to and thus take their que for clarification that what they were seeing was questionable.

The fact that the text says ALL smiles died I think would not just include Elia, but perhaps even Lyanna.

[MtnLion]

Giving the crown to your sister, (if your not a Targaryen), is "cute" and would be endearing to the crowd.

It might even bring a tear to the eye.

Giving it to your wife is smart.

Giving it to the woman who signs your "paycheck" like the Queen is politic.

Giving it to a woman who is not your wife, relative, or your "boss," AND is your cousins betrothed is going to raise some questions.

The crowd knew something was amiss, all smiles died, and Aerys was likely frothing at the mouth.

There were many different interpretations on the event, and many reasons for all smiles to die. I don't place it as being super-significant at the tourney. However, GRRM gives us a lot of symbolism in the transfer, which is fun to look at. Still it is not the break point for Elia and Rhaegar's relationship, because she has a child some nine or more months later. It is when she can no longer bear children that Rhaegar says that there must be one more, as he turns away. That is when he turns away from Elia, and looks for a new wife to bear a child, per the prophecy. I don't think that he is even thinking about Lyanna as a prospect, it just came to pass. Lyanna had a reason to avoid her betrothal, and the prince is looking for a new wife.

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah but what if she was younger, and better looking that your wife and had not had any kids to change her figure, it's ok then right?

Huh?

No.

[Alia of the knife]

There were many different interpretations on the event, and many reasons for all smiles to die. I don't place it as being super-significant at the tourney. However, GRRM gives us a lot of symbolism in the transfer, which is fun to look at. Still it is not the break point for Elia and Rhaegar's relationship, because she has a child some nine or more months later. It is when she can no longer bear children that Rhaegar says that there must be one more, as he turns away. That is when he turns away from Elia, and looks for a new wife to bear a child, per the prophecy. I don't think that he is even thinking about Lyanna as a prospect, it just came to pass. Lyanna had a reason to avoid her betrothal, and the prince is looking for a new wife.

Some have theorized that Lyanna herself may be responsible for Aegon coming to pass.

(If you can't be with the one you love, love the one your with).

So Lyanna may have been very much on his mind.

[Anath]

There were many different interpretations on the event, and many reasons for all smiles to die. I don't place it as being super-significant at the tourney. However, GRRM gives us a lot of symbolism in the transfer, which is fun to look at. Still it is not the break point for Elia and Rhaegar's relationship, because she has a child some nine or more months later. It is when she can no longer bear children that Rhaegar says that there must be one more, as he turns away. That is when he turns away from Elia, and looks for a new wife to bear a child, per the prophecy. I don't think that he is even thinking about Lyanna as a prospect, it just came to pass. Lyanna had a reason to avoid her betrothal, and the prince is looking for a new wife.

No one says it was the break point. Rhaenys and I were talking about it in the context of Rhaegar being fond of Elia. Let me ask you the question I've been asking everyone who insists that he was indeed very fond of her (for now, no one has answered): do you find his behavior affectionate? Do you find informing her that he needed a new child by a new woman while she was still making a hard recovery a fond thing to do? Don't forget, she could not leave her bed for six months after Rhaenys' birth and Aegon's was supposed to be worse. Aegon was about a year old at the time of his death, so Rhaegar set his plans in motion while she was not anywhere near to being better. So, do you find such a notification given to the woman who had almost died a short time ago to give you heir a fond thing to do?

[MtnLion]

No one says it was the break point. Rhaenys and I were talking about it in the context of Rhaegar being fond of Elia. Let me ask you the question I've been asking everyone who insists that he was indeed very fond of her (for now, no one has answered): do you find his behavior affectionate? Do you find informing her that he needed a new child by a new woman while she was still making a hard recovery a fond thing to do? Don't forget, she could not leave her bed for six months after Rhaenys' birth and Aegon's was supposed to be worse. Aegon was about a year old at the time of his death, so Rhaegar set his plans in motion while she was not anywhere near to being better. So, do you find such a notification given to the woman who had almost died a short time ago to give you heir a fond thing to do?

I don't expect that vision to exactly reflect events, do you? If you do, then you must accept Barristan's "fond" statement at face value, which you don't want to do.

[XSarellaX]

Yeah but what if she was younger, and better looking that your wife and had not had any kids to change her figure, it's ok then right?

It only makes it worse....

[Anath]

I don't expect that vision to exactly reflect events, do you? If you do, then you must accept Barristan's "fond" statement at face value, which you don't want to do.

You have a point. I suppose I just took GRRM's confirmation that the woman in the vision was Elia as confirmation that basically, the events transpired this way. If the vision was basically true, I can't think of any details that could change the gist of it: Rhaegar needed a third child and was so impatient that he couldn't wait for Elia to get better before informing her about his plans (granted, it would have been quite the waiting). Does it matter whether it was night or day or whether Rhaegar played his harp or whistled a tune?

Now would you answer the question? Which one of the two instances we have shows fondness on Rhaegar's part?

[MtnLion]

You have a point. I suppose I just took GRRM's confirmation that the woman in the vision was Elia as confirmation that basically, the events transpired this way. If the vision was basically true, I can't think of any details that could change the gist of it: Rhaegar needed a third child and was so impatient that he couldn't wait for Elia to get better before informing her about his plans (granted, it would have been quite the waiting). Does it matter whether it was night or day or whether Rhaegar played his harp or whistled a tune?

Now would you answer the question? Which one of the two instances we have shows fondness on Rhaegar's part?

I take that vision as a summation of several encounters between Elia and Rhaegar, not a single one. Does he have to say, "there must be one more" on the same day that he plays his harp, or even the same day that he names the child for the vision to be accurate? Could there have been much more dialog than what we are privy to? Does that make his interactions with Elia more or less "fond".

I am not a Rhaegar hater, nor am I a Rhaegar lover. I just harken back to the people cheered half as loud for Aerys as they did for Tywin, but twice as loud for Rhaegar. There must be something to that.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

"A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night."

Who was burned before Dany was conceived?

The Mace and Dagger Hand, Lord Chelsted. It was in the next sentence of the part you quoted :p

Rhaella was seen the next morning, the day she would leave for Dragonstone. That's when Jaime saw what happened at those nights. Before, he had only heard it through the door.

The Pyromancer became Hand after Lord Chelsted, and he was only Hand for a fortnight, The Trident happened a fortnight before the Sack. Rhaella left as soon as news of the Trident arrived. A fast raven would have taken about a day to bring the news of the Trident to KL.

Meera describes the wife of the Dragon Prince as the one of the most beautiful ladies at the tournament.

And for all her venom, Cersei thought Elia was black-eyed and flat-chested. That was the worst she could evidently come up with.

Aerys not mentioning Rhaenys might simply mean that as a girl, she wasn't worth a special protection. Rhaella was, after all, the Queen.

To add to this:

Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

Barristan doesn't describe Elia as beautiful, but compares her to Ashara, who is the most beautiful woman in the world in his opinion. The part "compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitched drab" suggests to me that Elia was pretty, Ashara was just extremely more pretty.

And no one mentioning Rhaenys might mean that Aerys didn't think about her. But it does seem weird though.

How do we know that Elia was humiliated?

She was passed over in public by her husband. Her husband gave his token of affection to another woman, while she was right there, in front of most of the high lords and ladies in Westeros. That is humiliation.

[MtnLion]

She was passed over in public by her husband. Her husband gave his token of affection to another woman, while she was right there, in front of most of the high lords and ladies in Westeros. That is humiliation.

Honestly, it is not a token of affection. It is the honor bestowed upon the winner of the tourney to award the crown to whomever he chooses. We have at least one example of a knight that was married that would award it to someone other than his wife. There is nothing that suggests that Elia was humiliated by the action, so it is an assumption.

[Anath]

Honestly, it is not a token of affection. It is the honor bestowed upon the winner of the tourney to award the crown to whomever he chooses. We have at least one example of a knight that was married that would award it to someone other than his wife. There is nothing that suggests that Elia was humiliated by the action, so it is an assumption.

Then why did all smiles die? Why was Robert furious? Why Dany wondered why Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown with his wife right there? Hell, even Selmy, ever the Rhaegar admirer, thinks it was a big deal.

It was clearly not something that was normally done. And no, we don't have an example of a knight who was married and would award it to someone other than his wife. He was going to award it to his queen which was obviously accepted.