R + L = J v 68

[Audrey Arryn]

Honestly, it is not a token of affection. It is the honor bestowed upon the winner of the tourney to award the crown to whomever he chooses. We have at least one example of a knight that was married that would award it to someone other than his wife. There is nothing that suggests that Elia was humiliated by the action, so it is an assumption.

The crown represents who the winner finds the most beautiful, it is wrong for any man to award such a title to another woman whiles he is married (Especially if his wife is present there). Its like saying susan is the most beautiful woman in the world right in front of one's girlfriend.

Can we stop trying to make Rhaegar's actions look good now? Whether he did it for a good reason or not his actions were wrong towards Elia.

[MtnLion]

Then why did all smiles die? Why was Robert furious? Why Dany wondered why Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown with his wife right there? Hell, even Selmy, ever the Rhaegar admirer, thinks it was a big deal.

It was clearly not something that was normally done. And no, we don't have an example of a knight who was married and would award it to someone other than his wife. He was going to award it to his queen which was obviously accepted.

Look back.

There's the tale of the Dragonknight entering a tourney as a mystery knight, the Knight of Tears, so that he could crown his sister rather than Aegon the Unworthy's mistress. On the other hand, Ser Balman claimed that he would have crowned Cersei at whatever tourney he won had she been present even though he had a wife. Maybe the importance of the crown varies from tourney to tourney.

Of course Naerys was king Aegon's wife, and the Dragonknight was a Kingsguard. Ser Balman would pass his own wife for Cersei (foolishly, if we go by Rhaegar's judgment).

[Audrey Arryn]

Look back.

That doesn't mean the wife was happy.

[Anath]

Look back.

I did look back. I even answered. Others also did.

Would you please address our arguments, instead of sending us to look back?

[MtnLion]

no, we don't have an example of a knight who was married and would award it to someone other than his wife.

Wrong.

Ser Balman claimed that he would have crowned Cersei at whatever tourney he won had she been present even though he had a wife.

[MtnLion]

I did look back. I even answered. Others also did.

Would you please address our arguments, instead of sending us to look back?

So, state something true. Or support your logic with something. Otherwise I will continue to dismiss it.

[Han Snow]

Look back.

Of course Naerys was king Aegon's wife, and the Dragonknight was a Kingsguard. Ser Balman would pass his own wife for Cersei (foolishly, if we go by Rhaegar's judgment).

But all smiles died... This is some heavy, loaded wording. If Elia wasn't right there, then it might have looked just a little disrespectful concerning Robert was there, but with her there it was a shocking choice. Maybe Elia even understood Rhaegar and was willing to accept other women as his paramours, she was Dornish after all, but his unexpected public display of...what...Showing affection, a clear interest in another woman, certainly shamed her at that moment for all the important people from the kingdom to witness and see.

[Anath]

So, state something true. Or support your logic with something. Otherwise I will continue to dismiss it.

How am I expected to state or support anything when you cut the important part of my response to make it look like I am stating something wrong?

But you gave me the answer I was after: crowning Lyanna showed Rhaegar's affection for Elia.

Thanks.

[MtnLion]

But all smiles died... This is some heavy, loaded wording. If Elia wasn't right there, then it might have looked just a little disrespectful concerning Robert was there, but with her there it was a shocking choice. Maybe Elia even understood Rhaegar and was willing to accept other women as his paramours, she was Dornish after all, but his unexpected public display of...what...Showing affection, a clear interest in another woman, certainly shamed her at that moment for all the important people from the kingdom to witness and see.

We don't have a good idea on that. Was it disrespectful for Barristan to award it to Lyanna or Ashara? Why couldn't the crown prince do as he pleases? Honestly, there is nothing in text that supports what the wiki says about the crown. Any woman could offer a favor to a knight, and even Loras offered Sansa a "special" flower at the Tourney of the Hand. Sansa was betrothed to the crown prince, and we know Loras' inclination.

As for all smiles fading, that can easily be explained by something happening that was totally unexpected. It need not be an insult, and if it were an insult we would see further evidence in the story, which we have yet to see.

I am just addressing the unsupported assumptions that are being made that Rhaegar turned away from Elia at the tourney. On the contrary we know that Rhaegar and Elia remained together until Elia was pronounced unfit to produce any further children. Elia obviously was not outraged, as some suggest.

Rhaegar may have had a motivation that was misinterpretted, and he may have acted impulsively. In fact it seems that the bent is to misinterpret the actions, without considering the actual conduct following.

[Han Snow]

We don't have enough information, and I want GRRM to write a RR novela outside the main books and then HBO to film it but some truths about women, no, not just women, people are true in GRRM's world as much as they are in ours. For now, I think that the most logical assumption we can make in lack of more information is that Elia did feel shamed by Rheagar's actions, at the least in that moment.

[Alia of the knife]

According to the historical accounts of Courtly Love, the crowning of the Queen of Love and Beauty has everything to do with love, though not always physically consummated , and the desire for the unattainable.

On occasion, the crown might go to a family member like a sister or to a Queen which was politic, as in the case of Loras to Sansa who might have been his Queen one day.

But it always involved the notion of love in acknowledgement that love amongst the married nobility did not exist due to political arrangements.

[Audrey Arryn]

We don't have a good idea on that. Was it disrespectful for Barristan to award it to Lyanna or Ashara? Why couldn't the crown prince do as he pleases? Honestly, there is nothing in text that supports what the wiki says about the crown. Any woman could offer a favor to a knight, and even Loras offered Sansa a "special" flower at the Tourney of the Hand. Sansa was betrothed to the crown prince, and we know Loras' inclination.

As for all smiles fading, that can easily be explained by something happening that was totally unexpected. It need not be an insult, and if it were an insult we would see further evidence in the story, which we have yet to see.

I am just addressing the unsupported assumptions that are being made that Rhaegar turned away from Elia at the tourney. On the contrary we know that Rhaegar and Elia remained together until Elia was pronounced unfit to produce any further children. Elia obviously was not outraged, as some suggest.

Rhaegar may have had a motivation that was misinterpretted, and he may have acted impulsively. In fact it seems that the bent is to misinterpret the actions, without considering the actual conduct following.

Ok so whats your reason as to why Elia wouldn't mind Rhaegar crowning Lyanna?

[Han Snow]

We don't have a good idea on that. Was it disrespectful for Barristan to award it to Lyanna or Ashara? Why couldn't the crown prince do as he pleases? Honestly, there is nothing in text that supports what the wiki says about the crown. Any woman could offer a favor to a knight, and even Loras offered Sansa a "special" flower at the Tourney of the Hand. Sansa was betrothed to the crown prince, and we know Loras' inclination.

As for all smiles fading, that can easily be explained by something happening that was totally unexpected. It need not be an insult, and if it were an insult we would see further evidence in the story, which we have yet to see.

I am just addressing the unsupported assumptions that are being made that Rhaegar turned away from Elia at the tourney. On the contrary we know that Rhaegar and Elia remained together until Elia was pronounced unfit to produce any further children. Elia obviously was not outraged, as some suggest.

Rhaegar may have had a motivation that was misinterpretted, and he may have acted impulsively. In fact it seems that the bent is to misinterpret the actions, without considering the actual conduct following.

The smiles fading were meant to convey everyone's reaction to that specific act and moment; Rheagar snubbing his wife for another. If he later managed to explain to her his reasons, we don't know. It's certainly possible that she accepted it, got over it and forgave him. Maybe she even tried to make him forget Lyanna, convince him that she could bear more children herself and thus Aegon was born (and maybe at the same time trying to forget some other person herself). But then after Aegon, Rhager needed more children, Elia was unable and his thoughts turned back to Lyanna and she accepted it.

[MtnLion]

The smiles fading were meant to convey everyone's reaction to that specific act and moment; Rheagar snubbing his wife for another. If he later managed to explain to her his reasons, we don't know. It's certainly possible that she accepted it, got over it and forgave him. Maybe she even tried to make him forget Lyanna, convince him that she could bear more children herself and thus Aegon was born (and maybe at the same time trying to forget some other person herself). But then after Aegon, Rhager needed more children, Elia was unable and his thoughts turned back to Lyanna and she accepted it.

That is more likely than insisting that Elia and Rhaegar fell out at the tourney and the Lyanna had a baby from the tourney. Some arguments are leading to Lyanna and Rhaegar made a love baby, dishonoring Lyanna at Harrenhal. Elia was of Dorne, and we know about their acceptance of paramours. (No, I can't think of a reason to believe that Wylla Manderly is a Targaryen in hiding, let alone Lyanna's first child.)

It is most likely that Ned, Lyanna, Brandon, and Benjen wintered at Winterfell, after the tourney. It would be exceedingly difficult for Lyanna to hide a pregnancy if that was the case. Lyanna having a bastard of Rhaegar's does not add up to Ned's reflections on Rhaegar, either.

I am interested in what GRRM will reveal about Elia and Rhaegar's arrangement after Aegon's birth. And a great many other things. However, I view awarding the crown more like the judge awarding the title of Miss Beauty Contest of Your Choice to one of the attendees than any other act.

[MtnLion]

Ok so whats your reason as to why Elia wouldn't mind Rhaegar crowning Lyanna?

Well, you need to provide evidence that she did mind, which she didn't in text, because she subsequently becomes pregnant with Aegon.

[Audrey Arryn]

Well, you need to provide evidence that she did mind, which she didn't in text, because she subsequently becomes pregnant with Aegon.

Nothing in the text shows she didn't mind aswell.

Well my assumption is an educated assumption that most women wouldn't agree for their husband to do that to them in public, I am a female and I wouldn't accept that if I had a husband.

There is nothing wrong with her having Aegon, Rhaegar may have wanted to fulfill his prophecy and also most women in the middle ages wouldn't rest until they have a male child,and due to Targaryen succession rules any Queen would want a son so that their child inherits.

Again I see no reason why Elia or any wife would accept for their husband to name a younger woman the most beautiful whiles she is present there and is also a candidate.

Edit: We also dont know if she was already pregnant at harrenhal, correct me if I am wrong.

[MtnLion]

Nothing in the text shows she didn't mind aswell.

<snip>

Edit: We also dont know if she was already pregnant at harrenhal, correct me if I am wrong.

That is why I pointed out that she subsequently became pregnant, there is support for the fact that she didn't strenuously object. She may have been unhappy, but as I pointed out, if her husband had to judge a beauty contest is she going to object to the winner her husband picks, if it is not her? Too much stock is being laid on the incorrect wiki entry.

No, but there is a rub, here. How long was winter that followed Harrenhal? I looked for, but am currently unable to find the SSM where he addresses Littlefinger challenging Brandon when the betrothal is announced in Riverrun (following winter, as I recall). We know that there is at least a fortnight that Brandon is away afterwards, and he had promised to return for the wedding, shortly.

[Anath]

That is why I pointed out that she subsequently became pregnant, there is support for the fact that she didn't strenuously object. She may have been unhappy, but as I pointed out, if her husband had to judge a beauty contest is she going to object to the winner her husband picks, if it is not her? Too much stock is being laid on the incorrect wiki entry.

No, but there is a rub, here. How long was winter that followed Harrenhal? I looked for, but am currently unable to find the SSM where he addresses Littlefinger challenging Brandon when the betrothal is announced in Riverrun (following winter, as I recall). We know that there is at least a fortnight that Brandon is away afterwards, and he had promised to return for the wedding, shortly.

Even Zeus backed up from judging in a beauty contest because the claimants were too close to him.

Rhaegar was free to choose without anyone batting an eyelid only if his wife was not present.

She didn't strenuously object and that's supported by the fact that she get pregnant afterwards? Are you kidding me? What was she supposed to do? To let someone else take the crown because her daughter couldn't? To spend the rest of her young life without sex because she couldn't have it without anyone else than Rhaegar without risking losing her head and her daughter's legitimacy? And should I need to remind you how Dany was conceived? How Cersei got treated by Robert? Rhaegar didn't even need Elia's consent to get her pregnant.

For the record: I don't think Elia suffered marital rape. Just in case you decided to defend Rhaegar from accusations no one ever made. Again: I don't think Elia suffered marital rape.

[Audrey Arryn]

That is why I pointed out that she subsequently became pregnant, there is support for the fact that she didn't strenuously object. She may have been unhappy, but as I pointed out, if her husband had to judge a beauty contest is she going to object to the winner her husband picks, if it is not her? Too much stock is being laid on the incorrect wiki entry.

No, but there is a rub, here. How long was winter that followed Harrenhal? I looked for, but am currently unable to find the SSM where he addresses Littlefinger challenging Brandon when the betrothal is announced in Riverrun (following winter, as I recall). We know that there is at least a fortnight that Brandon is away afterwards, and he had promised to return for the wedding, shortly.

Is it just a beauty contest though? Its called love and beauty.

[King Hodor IV]

why don't people consider A+L=J?

that aerys raped lyanna?