Ser Leftwich Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 why don't people consider A+L=J? that aerys raped lyanna? There is no reason to believe that Aerys and Lyanna were in proximity at the time when Lyanna became pregnant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 why don't people consider A+L=J? that aerys raped lyanna? The thought of that theory makes me want to puke :ack: Welcome to the forums though and nice avatar :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 why don't people consider A+L=J? that aerys raped lyanna? It's strongly implied that Aerys didn't know where Lyanna was anymore than Ned and Robert did; I think Rhaegar was protecting her from both parties. It also completely ignores the Rhaegar/Lyanna symbolism, like the blue rose in the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Honestly, it is not a token of affection. It is the honor bestowed upon the winner of the tourney to award the crown to whomever he chooses. We have at least one example of a knight that was married that would award it to someone other than his wife. There is nothing that suggests that Elia was humiliated by the action, so it is an assumption. Which knight are you talking about?All smiles died. The people there knew what it meant. It's a token of affection, and a married man whose wife was present presented it to a betrothed woman while her fiané was close by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 why don't people consider A+L=J? that aerys raped lyanna?Because there is absolutely no evidence for it :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Which knight are you talking about?All smiles died. The people there knew what it meant. It's a token of affection, and a married man whose wife was present presented it to a betrothed woman while her fiané was close by.:Similar to the token of affection that Loras gives to Sansa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 :Similar to the token of affection that Loras gives to Sansa? Loras isn't a married man, and he constantly gives away roses to women in the audience. They're not tokens of affection. And he didn't gave her the crown of roses to make her Queen of Love and Beauty. He gave her a rose he used for a show of his. Pretty important difference. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Loras isn't a married man, and he constantly gives away roses to women in the audience. They're not tokens of affection. And he didn't gave her the crown of roses to make her Queen of Love and Beauty. He gave her a rose he used for a show of his. Pretty important difference. :) It was a different rose than he gave to the other girls. It seemed special to Sansa, even though she is betrothed, and I don't recall anyone thinking that it was offensive, not even Renly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 It was a different rose than he gave to the other girls. It seemed special to Sansa, even though she is betrothed, and I don't recall anyone thinking that it was offensive, not even Renly. It was different than the other girls because she was the Hand's daughter and it was the Hand's tourney, but it wasn't the same as the Queen of Love and Beauty because Loras didn't win the tourney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRabbit Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Wow. This thread has devolved into some wacky theories. Where did this Lyanna had two kids come from??? I'd like a psychological study done on the state of sanity of A Song of Fire and Ice fans as the Winds of Winter takes longer and longer to come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 It was a different rose than he gave to the other girls. It seemed special to Sansa, even though she is betrothed, and I don't recall anyone thinking that it was offensive, not even Renly. Why would Renly take offense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Stark Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Wow. This thread has devolved into some wacky theories. Where did this Lyanna had two kids come from??? I'd like a psychological study done on the state of sanity of A Song of Fire and Ice fans as the Winds of Winter takes longer and longer to come out. Yeah, well just wait until the R+L=J version 69 thread begins and the sex positions of Rhaegar and Lyanna start to be theorized.... Seriously though, this whole topic cracks me up because it turns into utter madness. You are either on the side of believing that R+L=J...or you're just simply insane. :box: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 It was a different rose than he gave to the other girls. It seemed special to Sansa, even though she is betrothed, and I don't recall anyone thinking that it was offensive, not even Renly. Also, Loras is the Knight of Flowers, besides the rose-Tyrell connection, this is his signature trick, he gives flowers to ladies from his horse-cape of flowers. "His plate was intricately fashioned and enameled as a bouquet of a thousand different flowers, and his snow-white stallion was draped in a blanket of red and white roses. After each victory, Ser Loras would remove his helm and ride slowly round the fence, and finally pluck a single white rose from the blanket and toss it to some fair maiden in the crowd." AGoT p. 297 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelcan Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Now I am used to weird theories being peddled by rabid fans, Mass Effect fandom is full of it, but some of the stuff in here is just..... I mean... Anyways on topic If Jon is in fact Lyanna and Rhaegar's child, which he does seem to be, who that is currently alive would be aware? Howland Reed and perhaps his children (though I doubt it) and maybe a select few others, if anyone? Or am I missing something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Seems like it would be Howland Reed and possibly person(s) unknown who were also at the TOJ. It appears that Ned didn't tell anyone at Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Now I am used to weird theories being peddled by rabid fans, Mass Effect fandom is full of it, but some of the stuff in here is just..... I mean... Anyways on topic If Jon is in fact Lyanna and Rhaegar's child, which he does seem to be, who that is currently alive would be aware? Howland Reed and perhaps his children (though I doubt it) and maybe a select few others, if anyone? Or am I missing something Definitely Howland Reed Almost definitely Wylla the wetnurse, considering she claims Jon as her own son, so she must be in on the cover story. Almost definitely Bloodraven, who must have listened to Ned's confessions to the Winterfell Heart Tree, and who most probably calls Jon "King" repeatedly in the form of Mormont's raven. Probably Ashara Dayne, if she is still alive. Possibly the other adult Daynes. Perhaps the Hightowers. Samwell Tarly and Bran Stark might find out (the former from the Hightowers, the latter from Bloodraven/the Heart Trees) Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy and Tyrion Lannisters all have leads that, if pursued, would probably lead to the right conclusion (but they are not asking those quesions yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelcan Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 That list, besides Howland, sounds a lot like wild speculation to me I'm sure there's a train of logic to it, but I'm gonna need to read some more before I buy into a large conspiracy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I always found Joncons introduction of "Aegon" to be somewhat interesting, so perhaps he has some information. And since the Daynes seem to have been heavily involved, maybe Darkstar has heard rumors via Dayne servants. He is in his mid to late twenties which would have put him between 8~12 at the time. The reality with secrets is despite the best of efforts, something always gets out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 That list, besides Howland, sounds a lot like wild speculation to me I'm sure there's a train of logic to it, but I'm gonna need to read some more before I buy into a large conspiracy... OK, try to let me explain each one. Howland Reed we agree on. Lord Edric Dayne tells us his wetnurse Wylla was Jon Snow's mother. Since he also tells us Ned Stark was in love with Wylla's superior Ashara Dayne, this makes very little sense from that perspective alone. Coupled with the highly probable idea that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son and not Ned's at all, we have to wonder why Wylla would tell such a lie. At the same time, we know somebody was at the ToJ besides the Kingsguard (after Ned killed them and found Lyanna, they found Ned holding her corpse... they meaning Howland Reed and at least one person), and it makes sense for that person to be a midwife or wetnurse (otherwise Ned would have had trouble bringing the child from the ToJ, without someone to feed the baby). All of this converges to the conclusion that Wylla was almost certainly the servant/midwife/wetnurse at the ToJ. Ashara Dayne is mainly based on the idea that if her servant Wylla was at the ToJ, she'd most probably know about it. There's also the odd fact that Ned found Lyanna very quickly after the Sack, just as if someone had tipped him off about her whereabouts - and Ashara, as before, would most likely know. Bloodraven is mainly based on the (oddly talkative) raven of the Lord Commander calling Jon "King" so often. There's also the fact that we know through Bran's greenseeing that Ned prayed in front of the WF Heart Tree for Jon and Robb to "grow up as close as brothers" which indicates Bloodraven, who admitted he kept tabs on Winterfell though the Heart Trees, it's pretty likely Bloodraven knows that much too. The Hightowers is mainly based on Gerold Hightower being one of the KG at the ToJ and the fact that they are so reclusive. It is admittedly speculative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 As for the involvement of the Daynes, I would add that ToJ needed supplies from somewhere, and the Dayne lands would be the closest to arrange that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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