R + L = J v 68

[lojzelote]

Personally I like the idea that "Jon Snow" is George's word play on "John Doe". :D

I am not all that interested in Jon's original name. What I'd like to know is whether Lyanna chose a Stark name or a Targaryen name for him. I see it as a hint what she considered and wanted Jon and herself to be. Love or not, I don't think she would be exactly thrilled and proud to be Aerys' godddaughter and wouldn't think of herself as such, even if she technically was.

If Ned was forced to re-name him, then it would have had to be a Targaryen name. He wouldn't have a reason otherwise; it's really not all that disrespectful to give your bastard a "family" name: in history there had been a Stark bastard named Brandon Snow, and we also know that Ronnet Connington named his bastard son (Ronald Storm) for his father, Ronald Connington (well, we don't know it, but it seems very likely that the boy was named for his grandfather).

Unless Lyanna had named her son for Rhaegar's real BFF. I could see why Ned would have thought that it would be pretty awkward if he didn't change the original name since everybody was (or soon would be) aware he'd killed the namesake. Also, people would likely assume that Ashara must have named the kid and then Ned couldn't use the Wylla cover to further muddle up whose child Jon really is.

[J. Stargaryen]

Personally I like the idea that "Jon Snow" is George's word play on "John Doe". :D

If Ned was forced to re-name him, then it would have had to be a Targaryen name. He wouldn't have a reason otherwise; it's really not all that disrespectful to give your bastard a "family" name: in history there had been a Stark bastard named Brandon Snow, and we also know that Ronnet Connington named his bastard son (Ronald Storm) for his father, Ronald Connington (well, we don't know it, but it seems very likely that the boy was named for his grandfather).

Unless Lyanna had named her son for Rhaegar's real BFF. I could see why Ned would have thought that it would be pretty awkward if he didn't change the original name since everybody was (or soon would be) aware he'd killed the namesake. Also, people would likely assume that Ashara must have named the kid and then Ned couldn't use the Wylla cover to further muddle up whose child Jon really is.

Same. The first time I read it was like "yep, uh huh." I think I read somewhere that GRRM was pleased with the name Jon Snow. I'm guessing because it works on multiple levels, Jon Doe being one of them.

[FittleLinger]

Same. The first time I read it was like "yep, uh huh." I think I read somewhere that GRRM was pleased with the name Jon Snow. I'm guessing because it works on multiple levels, Jon Doe being one of them.

Yep, it's almost as if Ned (hence George) wanted to strip him off of any heritage and identity with that name. It works as a subconscious red flag, showing there's something fishy there.

[J. Stargaryen]

Yep, it's almost as if Ned (hence George) wanted to strip him off of any heritage and identity with that name. It works as a subconscious red flag, showing there's something fishy there.

Yeah, it's got a very clean slate feel to it. Which, in turn, makes it suspicious.

[Ygrain]

Could you help me find something? I can't recall what is said, and where: does Barristan mention Ned Stark, ever, when he talks to Dany, or in his inner monologue?

[Iona]

Could you help me find something? I can't recall what is said, and where: does Barristan mention Ned Stark, ever, when he talks to Dany, or in his inner monologue?

There's at least the Usurper's dogs talk he has with Dany in ADWD, this comes right after Barry tells Dany how he escaped KL.

The day Lord Stark lost his head, I was there, watching. Afterward I went into the Great Sept and thanked the seven gods that Joffrey had stripped me of my cloak.”

“Stark was a traitor who met a traitor’s end.”

“Your Grace,” said Selmy, “Eddard Stark played a part in your father’s fall, but he bore you no ill will. When the eunuch Varys told us that you were with child, Robert wanted you killed, but Lord Stark spoke against it. Rather than countenance the murder of children, he told Robert to find himself another Hand.”

“Have you forgotten Princess Rhaenys and Prince Aegon?”

“Never. That was Lannister work, Your Grace.”

“Lannister or Stark, what difference? Viserys used to call them the Usurper’s dogs. If a child is set upon by a pack of hounds, does it matter which one tears out his throat? All the dogs are just as guilty. The guilt …” The word caught in her throat. Hazzea, she thought, and suddenly she heard herself say, “I have to see the pit,” in a voice as small as a child’s whisper. “Take me down, ser, if you would.”

A flicker of disapproval crossed the old man’s face, but it was not his way to question his queen. “As you command.”

[Eira Seren]

what is it that he might have said? I could try searching part of a sentence and see

[Ygrain]

There's at least the Usurper's dogs talk he has with Dany in ADWD, this comes right after Barry tells Dany how he escaped KL.

The day Lord Stark lost his head, I was there, watching. Afterward I went into the Great Sept and thanked the seven gods that Joffrey had stripped me of my cloak.”

“Stark was a traitor who met a traitor’s end.”

“Your Grace,” said Selmy, “Eddard Stark played a part in your father’s fall, but he bore you no ill will. When the eunuch Varys told us that you were with child, Robert wanted you killed, but Lord Stark spoke against it. Rather than countenance the murder of children, he told Robert to find himself another Hand.”

“Have you forgotten Princess Rhaenys and Prince Aegon?”

“Never. That was Lannister work, Your Grace.”

“Lannister or Stark, what difference? Viserys used to call them the Usurper’s dogs. If a child is set upon by a pack of hounds, does it matter which one tears out his throat? All the dogs are just as guilty. The guilt …” The word caught in her throat. Hazzea, she thought, and suddenly she heard herself say, “I have to see the pit,” in a voice as small as a child’s whisper. “Take me down, ser, if you would.”

A flicker of disapproval crossed the old man’s face, but it was not his way to question his queen. “As you command.”

what is it that he might have said? I could try searching part of a sentence and see

I think that I meant what Iona quoted - thank you for that! - but other than that, I can't recall if there is any other instance where he mentioned or thought about Ned.

My point is: here, he calls him Lord Stark or Eddard Stark, but when he reminiscences about Harrenhall, he says that Ashara turned to Stark. I wonder if this might be a hint at disrespect or negative feelings towards this particular Stark; something that we do not see in the quote. Something like Catelyn adressing Tyrion Lannister.

[Alia of the knife]

I think that I meant what Iona quoted - thank you for that! - but other than that, I can't recall if there is any other instance where he mentioned or thought about Ned.

My point is: here, he calls him Lord Stark or Eddard Stark, but when he reminiscences about Harrenhall, he says that Ashara turned to Stark. I wonder if this might be a hint at disrespect or negative feelings towards this particular Stark; something that we do not see in the quote. Something like Catelyn adressing Tyrion Lannister.

Good catch on the subtleties on Barristons reference of the Starks.

I think its also interesting that in light of the Authors mention of his observations of Dany for madness and then the reference of his disapproval of Danys reaction to Ned is a bit of a foreshadowing on her direction.

[lojzelote]

Good catch on the subtleties on Barristons reference of the Starks.

I think its also interesting that in light of the Authors mention of his observations of Dany for madness and then the reference of his disapproval of Danys reaction to Ned is a bit of a foreshadowing on her direction.

Eh, he's only disaproving because she suddenly cut off the conversation. She didn't have any "lapse" as her father had had. Plus, I think that the quote above in fact shows that Dany realizes she already undirectly caused a child's death as well. She feels terribly because of it and wants to check on her "monsters". IMO, if it shows anything, then it is that she will understand Ned's involvement was wholly unintentional. The thing is, Barristan doesn't know she was thinking of Hazzea and is overwhelmed with emotions of her own failing, he thinks she is simply bored or doesn't like the direction the conversation is taking.

Also, black&white mentality doesn't equate to madness. It's like saying that Jon's foolish actions from the end of ADwD mean he is mentally unfit to make any important decisions in the future. (But who knows, mayhaps it does. Wouldn't it be cool if George would have written all over Dany *a Targaryen in stress, warning: may go mad*, but in fact it would be the secret Targ, who's slowly losing it? :P )

[Alia of the knife]

Eh, he's only disaproving because she suddenly cut off the conversation. She didn't have any "lapse" as her father had had. Plus, I think that the quote above in fact shows that Dany realizes she already undirectly caused a child's death as well. She feels terribly because of it and wants to check on her "monsters". IMO, if it shows anything, then it is that she will understand Ned's involvement was wholly unintentional. The thing is, Barristan doesn't know she was thinking of Hazzea and is overwhelmed with emotions of her own failing, he thinks she is simply bored or doesn't like the direction the conversation is taking.

Also, black&white mentality doesn't equate to madness. It's like saying that Jon's foolish actions from the end of ADwD mean he is mentally unfit to make any important decisions in the future. (But who knows, mayhaps it does. Wouldn't it be cool if George would have written all over Dany *a Targaryen in stress, warning: may go mad*, but in fact it would be the secret Targ, who's slowly losing it? :P )

Admittedly, it could go either way, and I don't discard the idea that Jon could be the candidate.

And Martin wouldn't be the first Author to take the "hero," turning him into something that perhaps that "hero" never wanted to be, or to corrupt him/her, and I'm prepared for that B)

But, I do think Martin is deliberate in use of words, and placement, as well as character function.

In the real world, I think you make that distinction and give the benefit of the doubt, but in this universe, GRRM is "god," so in laying the groundwork that Selmy does excercise some objectivity in the recognition of the character flaws in those he has experience with makes him a good "voice" for Martin to slowly unravel prior events.

In his approach to the character behaving cautiously and observing Dany for signs of madness lays the groundwork for the evolution, or "de-evolution" of her character and where it might go, as well as showing that Selmy is willing to be cautious with this Targaryen rather than jumping on the band wagon.

We see him then slowly begin to tell her the story of her family, again, knowing when it's appropriate to tell her the truth and when not to, understanding what she is prepared to hear and what she isn't.

It could be he was hasty, and should have waited to tell Dany about Neds nature incrementally, knowing that she still harbored much emotion and hatred against ALL those who had a hand in her family's fall, and not ready to hear that.

But in that moment, her absolute refusal to make the distinction between Ned and the Lannisters troubles Selmy and it gives him pause, which in Martins world, could foreshadow a little something about Danys inability to make distinctions in terms of justice and revenge.

(Of course the fact hat Ned basically put his position and himself in danger in the defense of Dany, and then Dany would still hate Ned would be par for the course for poor Ned). :frown5:

Now in her defense, we have another character, Arianne, not a genius when it comes to making judgements, and who in the sample chapter of tWoW hints that Dany could be mad, I think might be an indication that if Arianne thinks Dany is mad, then Dany is probably stone cold sane. :P

But, being sane and being "good" in the way that Rhaella and Rhaegar were are still two different things.

[Ghost's Shadow]

My point is: here, he calls him Lord Stark or Eddard Stark, but when he reminiscences about Harrenhall, he says that Ashara turned to Stark. I wonder if this might be a hint at disrespect or negative feelings towards this particular Stark; something that we do not see in the quote. Something like Catelyn adressing Tyrion Lannister.

I don't know on which part of the site I read it on, if it was here or a different thread, but I once read someone looking around to see how heirs are addressed, if it's by their last name, and therefore that Stark was in fact meant to be Brandon.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I don't know on which part of the site I read it on, if it was here or a different thread, but I once read someone looking around to see how heirs are addressed, if it's by their last name, and therefore that Stark was in fact meant to be Brandon.

Why would someone's heir be referred to only by their last name? Makes no sense, imho

[Ygrain]

I've elaborated a bit over here, so as not to derail the pinned thread.

Thanks again for finding me the quote, Iona, I couldn't even remember which book it was.

[Alia of the knife]

I don't know on which part of the site I read it on, if it was here or a different thread, but I once read someone looking around to see how heirs are addressed, if it's by their last name, and therefore that Stark was in fact meant to be Brandon.

That is something I've always wondered as well and think it may be almost medieval "slang" of protocol to reference the heir that way before he was a "lord."

[DrunkSister]

I was the one who suggested it because Jon calls Robb 'Stark' but calls Bran by his name.

Later somebody else added that Jaime is also referred to as 'Lannister' (he is the eldest son and Tywin still hasn't given up on him as his heir) but that Tyrion is called 'Lannister', too, which may weaken my hypothesis. Or not because Jaime in in kingsguard and can not inherit.

In addition, in Jane Austen novels the eldest daughter is always called Miss XXXX (like, Miss Bennet) but following children are Miss Elizabet Bennet etc. I was told this was the custom in the period.

I am not sure that these instances are firm enough to support 'look to Stark'=turn to Brandon, but if it turns out that this is the case, then they will have served as hints.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

My take is that "Stark" is meant to be ambiguous. Brandon is that bold and also flirty type who apparently may have fathered a few bastards all over the realm according to the SSMs. So in my first read's camera of the mind, Ashara looked to Ned and in my second she probably looked to Brandon. But she'd better look to Brandon in 281 and if Stark's were still her fashion then in 283 it must have been Ned.

We are supposed to be left in the dark.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

My take is that "Stark" is meant to be ambiguous. Brandon is that bold and also flirty type who apparently may have fathered a few bastards all over the realm according to the SSMs. So in my first read's camera of the mind, Ashara looked to Ned and in my second she probably looked to Brandon. But she'd better look to Brandon in 281 and if Stark's were still her fashion then in 283 it must have been Ned.

We are supposed to be left in the dark.

The fact that it could have been Brandon who got together with Ashara, is strenthened by the fact that Brandon went to speak to her on Ned's behalf. So we know they did at least spoke and met.

[Schmendrick]

Hi folks. I thought I'd share some foreshadowing of Jon as a Targ (and future king) that I've been piecing together for a while. I love this series of quotes, because each one acts like a little clue, pointing to the next, and you don't get the full picture 'till you get to the end.

Here's the first "clue:"

Along the walls stood empty suits of armor, dark and dusty, their helms crested with rows of scales that continued down their backs. As they hurried past, the taper’s light made the shadows of each scale stretch and twist. The hollow knights are turning into dragons, she thought.

ASoS, Sansa V.

"[H]ollow knights" made me think of the Brotherhood without Banners, who are sometimes called the Knights of the Hollow Hill. Here's something interesting that Sandor Clegane tells the the Knights of the Hollow Hill, after he's been captured by them:

“A knight’s a sword with a horse. The rest, the vows and the sacred oils and the lady’s favors, they’re silk ribbons tied round the sword. Maybe the sword’s prettier with ribbons hanging off it, but it will kill you just as dead.

ASoS, Arya VI.

Keep Clegane's definition of a knight in mind as you read the following:

He rested for a while to let the horse graze. She did not wander far. That was good. Hobbled with a bad leg, he could never have caught her. It was all he could do to force himself back to his feet and climb onto her back. How did I ever mount her before, without saddle or stirrups, and a sword in one hand? That was another question he could not answer.

Thunder rumbled softly in the distance, but above him the clouds were breaking up. Jon searched the sky until he found the Ice Dragon, then turned the mare north for the Wall and Castle Black. The throb of pain in his thigh muscle made him wince as he put his heels into the old man’s horse. I am going home, he told himself. But if that was true, why did he feel so hollow?

He rode till dawn, while the stars stared down like eyes.

ASoS, Jon V.

Jon specifically thinks about mounting a horse with a sword (meeting Clegan's definition of a Knight) and then wonders why he feels so hollow. Jon is a "hollow knight" ... which means he's becoming a dragon. If you don't like Clegane's definition, we also have Sansa's thought about how "in the songs, [members of the Night's Watch] were called the black knights of the Wall." (AGoT, Sansa III).

Lastly, here's the quote that drives it all home for me:

“So what is your answer, Lord Eddard? Give me your word that you’ll tell the queen what she wants to hear when she comes calling.”

“If I did, my word would be as hollow as an empty suit of armor. My life is not so precious to me as that.”

Eddard XV, AGoT.

So, if Eddard agrees to lie about who the true parents of a bastard king are, his word (promise) "would be as hollow as an empty suit of armor" (a hollow knight). If Ned lies about who the king's parents are, his word (promise) would be ... Jon.

I think there's also another layer of meaning (and an explanation for why the plural "knights" is used in the first Sansa quote). The BwB themselves (as well as plenty of others in the books) often refer to people based on the heraldry of the lord or King they serve (Stark men are Direwolves, Lannister men are Lions, etc.). If the Knights of the Hollow Hill (self-described "King's Men") are also "hollow knights," and thus "becoming dragons," then does that mean that they will wind up serving a Targaryen? For obvious reasons, my money is on Jon. And it's worth pointing out that the crown of the KitN, which Jon is now (probably) entitled to, is currently with the BwB.

[Fire Eater]

snip

That's a failure on Dany's part. She fails to notice that while Barristan usually is quiet and goes along with her when she rebukes the Robert and the Lannisters, he doesn't do so with Ned, but actually defends him when she basically says Ned got what he deserved when he lost his head. She said that just after Barristan said he went into Baelor's Sept to thank the gods for stripping him of his cloak after Joffrey executed Ned, meaning he saw it is as horrible enough to be one of the factors in thanking the gods for being stripped of his cloak. He tells that Ned threw away his office of Hand, the highest position in Westeros after the king over Robert's decision to have her killed.

When she brings up Aegon and Rhaenys, Barristan informs her that wasn't Ned's work but the Lannisters, instead of considering that Ned might have actually been a decent guy to have gotten Barristan's respect and resign over the decision to have her killed, she says "Viserys called them the Usurper's dogs." This is the same Viserys who told her their father wasn't mad, but then Dany learns that he totally was. She fails to acknowledge that if Viserys was wrong about that, then the chances are he was probably wrong about plenty of other things about Robert's Rebellion as well. She doesn't see, because she does not wish to see.

snip

Very nice job. To that I'll add that the only person we have seen being black knight in the main series is Rhaegar. In Dunk and Egg, we only see Targaryens being black armored knights.