R + L = J v 68

[FrozenFire3]

I believe the theory of Lightbringer as metaphor for a salvific figure (Jon) has been circulating for a while on the boards. It's the textual support that Schmendrick seems to be gathering the intriguing part...

Btw, J. Stargaryen's new thread has inspired the following snippet. I wasn't sure if it belonged there, though. So... here it is :)

Jamie's POV:

For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar’s children

Ned's:

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky

Deep red clouds aka a blood-streaked sky seem to crown Rhaegar's children... ALL of them.

[The guy from the Vale]

Yes, that Jon as Lightbringer theory has been around for some time, but Schmendrick makes the case better than any of those threads I've seen so far. Lightbringer as the Watch made more sense to me (and still does), but Jon as Lightbringer is quickly ascending to second place, and I can certainly see both interpretations play out.

[The One Armed Smith]

The Storm of Rose Petals???

Wasn't Lyanna particularly fond of winter roses?

And isn't that what caused the "day that all the smiles died"??

[DrunkSister]

Yes, that Jon as Lightbringer theory has been around for some time, but Schmendrick makes the case better than any of those threads I've seen so far. Lightbringer as the Watch made more sense to me (and still does), but Jon as Lightbringer is quickly ascending to second place, and I can certainly see both interpretations play out.

About bolded: this wold make Rhaegar Azor Ahai and Lyanna his Nissa Nissa, no?

[Ghost's Shadow]

And can Jon still be The Prince That Was Promised? But that's the Bringer of Light instead, and not Azor Ahai?

Azor Ahai was born amidst smoke and salt, so that is Rhaegar who was born when Summerhall burned down; smoke from fire, salt from tears. The Ghost of High Heart mentions she was there: "“You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!”"

So I guess we should stop saying they are synonyms. :blushing:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Certainly a good theory, all things combined. And we are given the idea that people might be referred to as swords back in AGoT:

I am the sword in the darkness...

And then there's this gem from the Hound is ASoS:

"A knight's a sword with a horse..."

[DrunkSister]

And can Jon still be The Prince That Was Promised? But that's the Bringer of Light instead, and not Azor Ahai?

Azor Ahai was born amidst smoke and salt, so that is Rhaegar who was born when Summerhall burned down; smoke from fire, salt from tears. The Ghost of High Heart mentions she was there: "“You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!”"

So I guess we should stop saying they are synonyms. :blushing:

It fits! It fits! :grouphug: :rofl: :commie:

Unless we have completed the puzzle using bits and pieces of sky and sea together. lol

[MtnLion]

This little piece really hit a spot:

Crows on the walls like courtiers around a king

Men of the Night's Watch are referred to as Crows.

Wall, self explanatory.

[Greymoon]

And can Jon still be The Prince That Was Promised? But that's the Bringer of Light instead, and not Azor Ahai?

Azor Ahai was born amidst smoke and salt, so that is Rhaegar who was born when Summerhall burned down; smoke from fire, salt from tears. The Ghost of High Heart mentions she was there: "“You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!”"

So I guess we should stop saying they are synonyms. :blushing:

That would explain why Rhaegar'd thought the prophecy applied to himself, at first. Maybe he wasn't completely in the wrong.

That makes me think of John the Baptist, at times considered as a forerunner to Jesus. John had the gift of prophecy and foretold the coming of someone greater even than himself. (Rhaegar about Aegon?). When Jesus is born, King Herod (who had John beheaded) is told that Jesus is the second coming of John the Baptist. Incidentally, Jesus is sometimes the second coming of Adam.

Either way – it’s not a perfect match and Christian theology is awfully confusing besides.

But well, “Messiah” that sounds like a "lightbringer" to me, and John being Jesus’s forerunner (Jesus was a disciple of John) is like Azor Ahai (Rhaegar) being Lightbringer’s (Jon’s) forerunner, kind of. ;)

Also, I'm almost certain this has been said before but - the three kingsguard are a little reminiscent of the three wise men/magi Kings who visit Jesus after his birth; thus lending him legitimacy as the King of Israel.

[Ygrain]

Speaking of the three kings... this totally made my Christmas :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnIFTtW1pko

[Han Snow]

That would explain why Rhaegar'd thought the prophecy applied to himself, at first. Maybe he wasn't completely in the wrong.

That makes me think of John the Baptist, at times considered as a forerunner to Jesus. John had the gift of prophecy and foretold the coming of someone greater even than himself. (Rhaegar about Aegon?). When Jesus is born, King Herod (who had John beheaded) is told that Jesus is the second coming of John the Baptist. Incidentally, Jesus is sometimes the second coming of Adam.

Either way – it’s not a perfect match and Christian theology is awfully confusing besides.

But well, “Messiah” that sounds like a "lightbringer" to me, and John being Jesus’s forerunner (Jesus was a disciple of John) is like Azor Ahai (Rhaegar) being Lightbringer’s (Jon’s) forerunner, kind of. ;)

Also, I'm almost certain this has been said before but - the three kingsguard are a little reminiscent of the three wise men/magi Kings who visit Jesus after his birth; thus lending him legitimacy as the King of Israel.

In the Bible Lightbringer is Lucifer (lat. lucem ferre) who according to Isaiah is the son of Dawn (in Croatian: Zora (coincidentally an anagram of Azor, referring to Venus, the northern star). Lucifer is a fallen angel, a black angel banished to underground, early christian writers falsely connected him with New Testament's Satan. In the NT Jesus himself is regarded as lightbringer, the bringer of dawn.

more fun facts: In slavic mythology: Zorya (alternately, Zora, Zarya, Zory, Zore = "dawn"; Zvezda, Zwezda, Danica = "star", Venus) are the two guardian goddesses, known as the Auroras. They guard and watch over the doomsday hound, Simargl, who is chained to the star Polaris in the constellation Ursa Minor, the "little bear". If the chain ever breaks, the hound will devour the constellation and the universe will end. The Zorya represent the Morning Star and Evening Star...

[Mithras]

There is another person who fits the Nissa Nissa profile regarding the latest comments.

silver queen

moon of my life

And we have this:

Something in his tone reminded her of Viserys. Dany turned on him angrily. “The dragon feeds on horse and sheep alike.”

Khal Drogo smiled. “See how fierce she grows!” he said. “It is my son inside her, the stallion who mounts the world, filling her with his fire.

We know from TPatQ that Rhaego was not sacrificed by MMD but he was dead for some time. It seems to happen to Targaryen women from time to time.

Was Drogo-Dany's offspring somehow special as Rhaegar-Lyanna's offspring or Aegon IV-Melissa Blackwood's? The First Men originally came from Essos. I think Serenei of Lys was an enigma too. She chose an obvious Dothraki name for her daughter, who was no less special than these. I even have a crackpot theory that she used a glamour on herself and she was actually a maegi most probably from Lhazareen.

By the way the moon cracking to give birth to a dragon gives me the idea that the skin of the swollen belly of a pregnant women cracks. And you get a baby in the end. Does this aspect fit the legend too? Or another crackpot idea, can only pregnant women hatch dragon eggs?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There is another person who fits the Nissa Nissa profile regarding the latest comments.

silver queen

moon of my life

And we have this:

Something in his tone reminded her of Viserys. Dany turned on him angrily. “The dragon feeds on horse and sheep alike.”

Khal Drogo smiled. “See how fierce she grows!” he said. “It is my son inside her, the stallion who mounts the world, filling her with his fire.

We know from TPatQ that Rhaego was not sacrificed by MMD but he was dead for some time. It seems to happen to Targaryen women from time to time.

Was Drogo-Dany's offspring somehow special as Rhaegar-Lyanna's offspring or Aegon IV-Melissa Blackwood's? The First Men originally came from Essos. I think Serenei of Lys was an enigma too. She chose an obvious Dothraki name for her daughter, who was no less special than these. I even have a crackpot theory that she used a glamour on herself and she was actually a maegi most probably from Lhazareen.

By the way the moon cracking to give birth to a dragon gives me the idea that the skin of the swollen belly of a pregnant women cracks. And you get a baby in the end. Does this aspect fit the legend too? Or another crackpot idea, can only pregnant women hatch dragon eggs?

Ehhh, I'm very leery about grouping Visenya and Rhaego together like that. I don't think we know enough to make that kind of claim.

[DrunkSister]

Ehhh, I'm very leery about grouping Visenya and Rhaego together like that. I don't think we know enough to make that kind of claim.

Do you have some special app to alert you whenever somebody utters this claim? :cheers:

[Greymoon]

By the way the moon cracking to give birth to a dragon gives me the idea that the skin of the swollen belly of a pregnant women cracks. And you get a baby in the end. Does this aspect fit the legend too? Or another crackpot idea, can only pregnant women hatch dragon eggs?

The story about how the moon ventured too close to the sun could be a metaphor for intercourse... or Aegon is the sun, Rhaenys the mother of the Targaryen line, and Visenya as the second moon. :dunno:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ehhh, I'm very leery about grouping Visenya and Rhaego together like that. I don't think we know enough to make that kind of claim.

In addition to this, Rhaego was still alive only shortly before birth. Dany could feel him kicking.

[Schmendrick]

Hi folks. I just wanted to poke my head in and say that I'm really inspired by all of you brilliant people and your amazing thoughts and textual finds. What's been going on in the last few pages of this thread is exactly what I was hoping for when I decided to go from long-time-lurker to poster. I'm working on writing up my take on the Jon-as-Lightbringer theory, but it'll be a while. A week or two, maybe more. I have to finish my research and quote-pulling and then distill an obscene amount of notes into something digestible and readable. And I actually need to write up and post another theory first, since I haven't seen it fleshed out anywhere and I use it as supporting evidence.

I don't want to divert the R+L=J thread away from its main focus, so I'll post my work in a new thread, but I'll hop in with a link when it's up.

In the meantime, here's one last R+L=J-related thought on Jon being Lightbringer. We know George has said that A Song of Ice and Fire has multiple meanings. Lots of people have made the connection to the "song" being Jon's story, as the son of Lyanna (Ice) and Rhaegar (Fire). But as George reminds us repeatedly throughout the books, a sword can sing ("... the Dornishman's blade had a song of its own ...."). So, if the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar is Lighbringer, then Lightbringer's sword-song is A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Eira Seren]

It is very interesting to read Lightbringer as the child of Azor Ahai.

“A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

This is scene is very tempting to think as Nissa Nissa breastfeeding Lightbringer. Again we have a reference to moon cracking. And it is said that her blood, soul, strength and courage went to Lightringer. Jon is almost nothing like his father. He is his mother's son.

Sorry to add a layer of smut to this conversation. However:

AA sticks his, um, sword into Nissa Nissa and. . . ecstasy and pain and blood and. . .

In a way it is as if she is giving birth to another sword (a male child), Lightbringer. A nice parallel to Lyanna, who dies giving birth to Jon.

[Lyse Stark]

Sorry to add a layer of smut to this conversation. However:

AA sticks his, um, sword into Nissa Nissa and. . . ecstasy and pain and blood and. . .

In a way it is as if she is giving birth to another sword (a male child), Lightbringer. A nice parallel to Lyanna, who dies giving birth to Jon.

Good analogy. :blush: :blush: :blush:

[Fire Eater]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before but Lyanna is a princess in a tower, and a lot of the stories in mythology have a princess being locked away in a tower only to become impregnated and give birth to the hero, like in the myths of Perseus and Lugh. In the case of Lugh, he was one of three children, and the only one of the three to survive, like Jon was the only one of Rhaegar's three children to survive.