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R + L = J v 68


Stubby

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No, I don't. They just repeated what they heard. The fact that the claim was probably true was just a coincidence.

Viserys could hardly know because of the reasons Rhaenys laid out. As to Barristan, before making the claim that all the theories of "Elia was OK with it because she was fond of Rhaegar!" rely on, he expicitly said that he did not know the secrets of Rhaegar's heart.

Neither of their claims came from a place of knowledge, so I don't think we can use them to prove anything. They only prove that the people making them believed what they were told, not that what they were told was true.

The term you are looking for is unreliable narrator. What Selmy and Vis say could be true or it could not be true. Though I questions Vis and his idea of love. He does say Rhaegar took Lyanna at sword point, but we don't even know if that is true.

I would really like to know who saw the whole thing go down, as someone had to report it and say t was Rhaegar.

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@Ser Creighton



And I grew up in a place that in the winter, it was regularly -10 to -20 degrees below zero, a full moon over the snow- covered mountains would look like daylight, and dad had to let the water run so it wouldn't freeze in the pipes.


I would ride my math book down the hill to catch the school bus, (they cancelled school for nothing), because everything would get so iced over, even the bannisters of our steps, that you couldn't hold onto anything.



I later moved to a place where in the summer, it can be so tropical and sweltering that the spiders get big enough to deserve their own social security number, so I don't get the ice spider thing in aSoIaF, but I will take sweltering any day. :cool4:


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The term you are looking for is unreliable narrator. What Selmy and Vis say could be true or it could not be true. Though I questions Vis and his idea of love. He does say Rhaegar took Lyanna at sword point, but we don't even know if that is true.

I would really like to know who saw the whole thing go down, as someone had to report it and say t was Rhaegar.

I am explaining why I think Selmy is an unreliable narrator. I think he was very meticulous about the things he saw but his interpretation of people's feelings and motivations leaves something to be desired of.

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I am explaining why I think Selmy is an unreliable narrator. I think he was very meticulous about the things he saw but his interpretation of people's feelings and motivations leaves something to be desired of.

They are all unreliable narrators.

Did you use any of the quotes from his chapters? I had posted a few in the past, there is a lot of doubt about what he says because of the way he looks at things. But that doesn't actually make him wrong. He takes the Chivalrous view of Rhaegar, Lyanna and Dany, that's how he sees it. He sees things he likes or wants like Ashara in a very glowing fantasy kind of way. The reality may be different.

Until KL Selmy had an entirely different view of Ned Stark that he made from his own assumptions. But after getting to know Ned a little Selmy took a different view. Emotion plays a large part in a lot of the POV's. It tends to cloud peoples judgment but it also makes the characters more believable at the same time. The characters often really believe what they are saying because that's how they feel about it. Doesn't make it right or wrong.

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I think the Author puts Selmy in the place of his "voice" in terms of peeling back the layers of some of the events concerning Rhaegar in order to give the audience the answers to what happened.



I think when Selmy states: "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it," is not only a truthful statement of not only what he "knew" but what was likely obvious to everyone.


You didn't need to be in Rhaegars inner circle to see the "iron-toned, sour" Prince was wearing his heart on his sleeve.


And Selmy doesn't sound the least romantic about that love as he compared it to a poison.



When you see the instance of his laying back and observing Dany for any signs of madness, it indicates both his caution but his objectivity in what he sees in the Targaryens.



Selmys flaw lay in the fact that he loved his own honor more than he loved doing what was actually right which is the case with many of the KG with the possible exception of Jaimie and Arthur Dayne, which in Daynes case, Martins cryptic statement about his being an honorable knight is intriguing.



But, in terms of his being reliable, I think he is as reliable as we can get as he is placed in some of the most critical points in Rhaegars life. Also the fact that he wasn't in Rhaegars inner circle, and not subject to bias of Rhaegar though he clearly admired him, is another thing for me that makes me see him as reliable, and I think it comes down to some of the fandom not liking the implications of Selmys observations.


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@Ser Creighton

And I grew up in a place that in the winter, it was regularly -10 to -20 degrees below zero, a full moon over the snow- covered mountains would look like daylight, and dad had to let the water run so it wouldn't freeze in the pipes.

I would ride my math book down the hill to catch the school bus, (they cancelled school for nothing), because everything would get so iced over, even the bannisters of our steps, that you couldn't hold onto anything.

I later moved to a place where in the summer, it can be so tropical and sweltering that the spiders get big enough to deserve their own social security number, so I don't get the ice spider thing in aSoIaF, but I will take sweltering any day. :cool4:

And this is why I'm willing to deal with Minnesota winters.

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@Ser Creighton

And I grew up in a place that in the winter, it was regularly -10 to -20 degrees below zero, a full moon over the snow- covered mountains would look like daylight, and dad had to let the water run so it wouldn't freeze in the pipes.

I would ride my math book down the hill to catch the school bus, (they cancelled school for nothing), because everything would get so iced over, even the bannisters of our steps, that you couldn't hold onto anything.

I later moved to a place where in the summer, it can be so tropical and sweltering that the spiders get big enough to deserve their own social security number, so I don't get the ice spider thing in aSoIaF, but I will take sweltering any day. :cool4:

Grew up in a place where it was regularly -10 to -20, a full moon over the snow covered mountain made it look like daylight? Hmmmmm. Ice everywhere? Hmmmmm. You eventually moved I am guessing south of where you lived, far south from it. And Spiders, giant spiders.

Alia of the Knife I name you Other and now we know what they want. They want warmth cause it is fucking cold where they live, and they will do anything to get it.

I always thought of the Ice Spiders as something else, though Spiders can live in the arctic. Maybe like ancient undead spiders that once lived in the forests during the COF days, killed them an iced them, but you know all about that don't you?

Or from Jons dream the way everyone was crawling up the wall was very spider like. Maybe we will find out.

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Alia, how could Selmy see that Rhaegar was wearing his heart on his sleeve? The only time he saw him with Lyanna was at Harrenhall where people claim Rhaegar only crowned her honourably (personally, I don't believe it because it was hardly the best way to hide tKotLT from Aerys' attention). But even then, Rhaegar supposedly let her leave and set himself on the task of making tPPWP. The only way Selmy could know about Rhaegar's feelings could be if Rhaegar confided in him - which Selmy himself confesses he doesn't know.



Ser Creighton, I never claimed Selmy was a liar. I simply stated that his words are hardly evidence of anything but what he believed which I coincidentally think was the truth.


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No, I don't. They just repeated what they heard. The fact that the claim was probably true was just a coincidence.

Viserys could hardly know because of the reasons Rhaenys laid out. As to Barristan, before making the claim that all the theories of "Elia was OK with it because she was fond of Rhaegar!" rely on, he expicitly said that he did not know the secrets of Rhaegar's heart.

Neither of their claims came from a place of knowledge, so I don't think we can use them to prove anything. They only prove that the people making them believed what they were told, not that what they were told was true.

I must say I am rather baffled. Two sources, who were actually in contact with Rhaegar (or in Viserys' case, per another person like Rhaella), independently of each other provide a piece of information confirmed by a third, entirely independent source, and you call it coincidence?

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And her only source for that was Viserys, who himself was 8 at the time of Rhaegar's death, and 7 at the time of Lyanna's disappearance. He was a child, and he wouldn't have known anything. I doubts Rhaegar took the time to explain himself to his little brother, but I can see Viserys asking about the events, and Rhaella answering him with "because Rhaegar loves her", since that would make Rhaegar's actions sound a bit better than when you answer "because Rhaegar wanted to fulfil a prophecy" or something similar.

Point is, Viserys was the source for that, and we don't know who told him.

You are making an assumption without using all of the facts. What about Ser Willem Darry?

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Honor, is a tricky thing. The probllem with Selmy is not that he had to much of it, but not enough. At least that is how I read him. Selmy is very chivalrous and had a sort of fantasy look at being a knight, dating back to when he was first named the bold. But when the fantasy met the reality Selmy broke, it's why he feels guilty. Selmy bent the knee to the man who saw Elia and her children brutally murdered, he broke his vows, he didn't protect the Queen he didn't do the right things when the right things needed to be done. On of the keys to his character for me is that he lost respect for himself and is trying to get it back.

And yes that is why he more cautious, more observant, these days, but he also has not fully crossed that line, but is moving towards redemption for himself. Because Selmy failed to do the right things.

Jaime is said to have no honor early in the books, but we find out Jaime had a rather large amount of it. But it seems to be gone, Jaime is the opposite side of the same coin as Selmy. Jaime did the honorable thing and it blew up in his face. His big regret as pointed out by his dream is Elia and the Children. In truth Jaime could not have saved them and the city. Tywin had already ordered there murder. But he blames himself for not protecting them, though had he done that the city burns. So Jaime did the honorable thing, it blew up in his face and so he tossed aside his honor. Jaime doesn't want this thing called honor back yet it is slowly coming back, well part of him doesn't want it.

Selmy didn't do the honorable thing he did the practical thing. It blew up in his face and now he wants his honor back.

The whole thing for me gets really complex, with the two characters but that is the best part, people are complex, it's not black and white. The reason Selmy has to peel back the layers is because reality and his beliefs where not the same thing. Now he is trying to get to the root of it, that's a big part of his journey, you know he often reflects on how wrong he was about things. I think his journey will culminate when he tells Dany the truth about her father.

I think it's time for a Selmy re-read. Love that character.

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I hate to break it to you, but Robert's Rebellion was a bit more complex than a fight over a 14 year old girl…

Yes, it was a rebellion because Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and Ned Stark refused to meet the king's terms. That was to deliver both Ned and Robert's heads to him.

Rheagar was obsessed with a prophecy that he could not get out of his head.

That is an assumption that you are making. Back it up with textual evidence!

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Alia, how could Selmy see that Rhaegar was wearing his heart on his sleeve? The only time he saw him with Lyanna was at Harrenhall where people claim Rhaegar only crowned her honourably (personally, I don't believe it because it was hardly the best way to hide tKotLT from Aerys' attention). But even then, Rhaegar supposedly let her leave and set himself on the task of making tPPWP. The only way Selmy could know about Rhaegar's feelings could be if Rhaegar confided in him - which Selmy himself confesses he doesn't know.

Ser Creighton, I never claimed Selmy was a liar. I simply stated that his words are hardly evidence of anything but what he believed which I coincidentally think was the truth.

When did I say you called Selmy a liar or even hint you were saying that? No clue what you are referring too.

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Am I the only one who remembers?

Jon at Queenscrown:

I always took that to mean he does have some of his mother's skills.

Yes, indeed. And Arya resides in the castle as well. We know that she is an outstanding horsewoman, too.

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You are making an assumption without using all of the facts. What about Ser Willem Darry?

It's an odd thing that Ser Willem Darry died when he did. After Oberyn and the Sea Lord of Braavos visited him to sign the pact.

Vis is a tough one, because he really saw things how he wanted too, does he ever call his father crazy? I mean Vis had tunnel vision and there was no getting around him or through to him when we actually meet him in the books. I can't actually say after meeting Vis that Darry did all that good of a job with him.

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I must say I am rather baffled. Two sources, who were actually in contact with Rhaegar (or in Viserys' case, per another person like Rhaella), independently of each other provide a piece of information confirmed by a third, entirely independent source, and you call it coincidence?

Do we know Viserys got his information from Rhaella? Do we know Rhaegar found it necessary to explain his feelings to his mother or that he had the time for that? No, we don't. But it makes logic to give a child who has lost everything the most favourable explanation possible. And Rhaella is known to hide the truth about a member of her family's true nature from Viserys to protect him.

Do we know that Selmy didn't know Rhaegar's heart? Yes, we do. Because Semly said so. All his assumptions about Rhaegar's feelings are just that - assumptions.

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