Suzanna Stormborn Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 :bowdown: This is an interesting comparison. In terms of fire and ice there is also the comparison of Dany and Jon both fixing the wrong of what their ancestors did. In Dany's case she is trying to stop slavery after the Valyrians started it thousands of years ago. And Jon allows the wildings, giants and other races etc. back into the realm after they were blocked by the wall the first men built. That's a really good point. They are both trying to right the wrongs of their ancestors. The Valyrians started slavery and even had dragons as slaves. Dany says to the slavers 'dragons are not slaves' (or something to that affect). So I think she is not going to take lightly to anyone who tries to bind one of her dragons with a 'slave horn'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alysanne™ Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 That's a really good point. They are both trying to right the wrongs of their ancestors. The Valyrians started slavery and even had dragons as slaves. Dany says to the slavers 'dragons are not slaves' (or something to that affect). So I think she is not going to take lightly to anyone who tries to bind one of her dragons with a 'slave horn'. This is a good point too on slavery. I saw it discussed in another thread that that could have been the difference between the Targaryens/Dany and the other Valyrians. The targaryens seemed to treat their dragons as more than just war materials, they seemed to treat them as friends/pets just like the Stark children and their direwolves, whiles the valyrians seemed to use them as just slaves since they bound them to their will, which I agree with you sounds like slavery. And that could have been why the Valyrians saw the targaryens as weak. Cause if the targs were using 'slave horns' we would have seen it in the PATQ. It's also possible that because of the Targaryens possible treatment of dragons compared to the freehold is why the dragons blessed them with 'dragon dreams' and a more natural bond and in return and that was how Daenys foresaw the doom. There is also alot of evidence in the text that shows the Targaryens were 'antislavery' compared to the freehold, examples are that they didn't try to rebuild Valyria after the doom and they didn't bring slavery when they conquered westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I agree it would have been terrible, that's why I am glad MMD was there and IMO got what she deserved. However Irri was the one telling Dany it's no big deal to make slaves of the lamb people.......everyone has their faults. My main thing with MMD is that she put herself in that position, she thanked Dany, she offered to help/kill Drogo then she went on to kill Dany's baby. MMD admits all this to Dany. She could have just been silent after Dany saved her, but she put herself in the dangerous position. Everything that happened to her she brought on herself. And she did it to her then 'masters' she knew Dany/drogo had the power in this situation. Yet she defied them anyway, and sure I see your point that she was screwed over and was just taking her revenge on the Khal who led the attack on her village, I dont fault her there. I just think she should have stopped with Drogo. I think this is worth exploring further. Suppose Martin had written the chapter so that Dany ordered Ser Jorah to tie Irri to the pyre. Irri begs for mercy and screams as the flames engulf her. Dany enters the fire herself, and then emerges triumphant with her dragons. I imagine that most of us would view what we had read as a dreadful piece of black magic, and regard Dany as evil. Dany gets forgiven by the readers because Mirri is an antagonist to her (although in my opinion, a sympathetic one). And yet, I'm not at all sure that the status of the victim should make us view blood magic favourably (as Parwan has argued above). Most of the people burned by Stannis and Melisandre are, after all, criminals. Lord Florent and Lord Sunglass are guilty of treason; the three soldiers are guilty of cannibalism; Rattleshirt is a multiple rapist and murderer. Yet, through the eyes of Jon Snow and Asha Greyjoy, we're encouraged to view this form of punishement as wrong (I imagine that even if Jon had known that Rattleshirt was being burned, he'd have still disapproved of that form of execution). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I think this is worth exploring further. Suppose Martin had written the chapter so that Dany ordered Ser Jorah to tie Irri to the pyre. Irri begs for mercy and screams as the flames engulf her. Dany enters the fire herself, and then emerges triumphant with her dragons. I imagine that most of us would view what we had read as a dreadful piece of black magic, and regard Dany as evil. Dany gets forgiven by the readers because Mirri is an antagonist to her (although in my opinion, a sympathetic one). And yet, I'm not at all sure that the status of the victim should make us view blood magic favourably (as Parwan has argued above). Most of the people burned by Stannis and Melisandre are, after all, criminals. Lord Florent and Lord Sunglass are guilty of treason; the three soldiers are guilty of cannibalism; Rattleshirt is a multiple rapist and murderer. Yet, through the eyes of Jon Snow and Asha Greyjoy, we're encouraged to view this form of punishement as wrong (I imagine that even if Jon had known that Rattleshirt was being burned, he'd have still disapproved of that form of execution). Yes I agree burning people is terrible, even criminals do not deserve it. And I think it is ok that we, the reader, disagree with this form of sacrifice. But it happens a lot in the books, and we have seen that it gets results. idk what to say. 50,000 Americans die every year in car wrecks, that is the accepted price we pay so that no one has to ride a horse to work. Is it worth it? I dont know........burning people/blood sacrifice is just part of the story, many main characters have taken part in it one way or the other at this point...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parwan Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Ser Creighton said: Accounting for the nature of magic it's not really supported in the text, most of who she is cultural and learned behavior with Dany and that is perfectly natural. But that burning, that's important, I'm not sure what you mean by this. I maintain that Dany is magical, and that this is a central part of her character. It appears that you are denying the second part. If so, I disagree strongly. I think this is worth exploring further. Suppose Martin had written the chapter so that Dany ordered Ser Jorah to tie Irri to the pyre. Irri begs for mercy and screams as the flames engulf her. Dany enters the fire herself, and then emerges triumphant with her dragons. I imagine that most of us would view what we had read as a dreadful piece of black magic, and regard Dany as evil. Dany gets forgiven by the readers because Mirri is an antagonist to her (although in my opinion, a sympathetic one). And yet, I'm not at all sure that the status of the victim should make us view blood magic favourably (as Parwan has argued above). Most of the people burned by Stannis and Melisandre are, after all, criminals. Lord Florent and Lord Sunglass are guilty of treason; the three soldiers are guilty of cannibalism; Rattleshirt is a multiple rapist and murderer. Yet, through the eyes of Jon Snow and Asha Greyjoy, we're encouraged to view this form of punishement as wrong (I imagine that even if Jon had known that Rattleshirt was being burned, he'd have still disapproved of that form of execution). Yes I agree burning people is terrible, even criminals do not deserve it. And I think it is ok that we, the reader, disagree with this form of sacrifice. But it happens a lot in the books, and we have seen that it gets results. idk what to say. 50,000 Americans die every year in car wrecks, that is the accepted price we pay so that no one has to ride a horse to work. Is it worth it? I dont know........burning people/blood sacrifice is just part of the story, many main characters have taken part in it one way or the other at this point...... It's not just the opinions of Jon Snow and Asha Greyjoy that we should pay attention to. We also have the Dothraki. They are clearly frightened by blood magic. It seems likely that this fear has a basis in experience. The nomads do not frighten easily. Then we have the words of Varys to Tyrion in ACoK. The eunuch is talking about "a certain man" and the "part of me he had need of": Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dram of the voice. The voice from the flames. I'm not convinced that burning people on a pyre is a matter of a trade-off--possibly accepting a very bad form of punishment because it can bring about worthwhile results. Let's put the issue this way: Suppose you had some kind of experience similar to that of Varys or (presumably) the horselords. You learn that many people who practice the sort of magic we're talking about here maintain that they are worshipping their god. Wouldn't you suspect that the entity they are worshipping is something other than a god? Wouldn't you worry that people who get involved in this business, no matter how good they are, no matter how much good they do, are still heading down the wrong path? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted March 22, 2014 Author Share Posted March 22, 2014 Well, one down, three more to go! Thank you all for all the amazing discussion it has been both fun and insightful I can't wait to delve into the next book. I have created a new thread for discussion of ACoK & ASoS. I hope to see you all there tomorrow! :thumbsup: :love: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 We have her waking three times which fits with this idea of the dream and her theme of threes. First she wakes in drenched in shadow with ash rising to the smoke hole. She awakens again in darkness. She is passive, she doesn't try to rise and the wind outside her tent is flapping like wings. Her transformation is outside; she hasn't internalized it yet like in the dream. Her tent shields her from it. She drinks water that is warm and flat and cherishes it. She has been in this state too long. Finally she wakes a third time to "a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent." The place where ashes poured out is now a place wear golden sunlight pours in. She wants water but "as cold as you can find it" no longer satisfied with "warm and flat." At least on a personal level, the symbolism of the dreaming sections seems to point toward a too long journey of darkness and shadow where she eventually completes her transformation into a "dragon" that allows her to return "home" to whatever she discovers as her true replacement for the house with the red door.I know we were done with this threat but something just occurred to me. After Dany asks for a flagon of cold water she says: "And Fruit, I think. Dates". Dates are a symbol of life. Hmmm..... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Woodland Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Excellent analysis SeanF! Other Notes Here are a few things that also occurred to me while reading the chapter: 1. Ser Jorah "Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end" Hi sorry new to posting on Threads so my apologies to the original authors of the quotes I was unable to work out how to correctly put them in quote boxes. I have just started a re-read of GoT & watching the first HBO series at the same time. I agree this is really important almost a prophecy - as it is also featured in the TV series. I agree it does seem to be the Dothraki version of the "Others" perhaps when the Khalasar find Dany with Drogo at the end of ADWD they see her controlling the dragon as a way to burn & kill the Ghost Grass thus uniting & saving all the world not just the Dragons needed to fight the others in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted April 4, 2014 Author Share Posted April 4, 2014 I think this might signify the coming of the Long Night in Essos. It will also cause a lot of problems with food supply which will exasperation the issue of low food supply in the winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (...) Lord Sunglass are guilty of treason (...) The burning of Lord Sunglass was a bloody sin. The man was extremely pious and he could no longer suffer the "atrocities" committed by Mel and the Queen's Men. I think he is more of a martyr than a criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 The burning of Lord Sunglass was a bloody sin. The man was extremely pious and he could no longer suffer the "atrocities" committed by Mel and the Queen's Men. I think he is more of a martyr than a criminal. I think one can make a good argument for that. Just as one can make a good argument that the burning of Mirri was a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I think one can make a good argument for that. Just as one can make a good argument that the burning of Mirri was a crime. Agreed. She had every right to betray Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spunken en eggs Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 what do u mean whit "know" what she did? remember the event? she probebly does. did she know the " way/ steps/ ritual/ magic" that was needed to hatch a dragon? if she does, why tell no one? or try to hatch more of them... i think it would be weird for here to just know how its dun en don't think about it, don't tell any on. or do u think she knows, but it needs a Ned/Ice/comet/ blablalba... to make a dragon en is this to much work/ impossible to recreate? ( would still be good to tell some one in case u die, would u take a secred like that to the grave?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alysanne™ Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 what do u mean whit "know" what she did? remember the event? she probebly does. did she know the " way/ steps/ ritual/ magic" that was needed to hatch a dragon? if she does, why tell no one? or try to hatch more of them... i think it would be weird for here to just know how its dun en don't think about it, don't tell any on. or do u think she knows, but it needs a Ned/Ice/comet/ blablalba... to make a dragon en is this to much work/ impossible to recreate? ( would still be good to tell some one in case u die, would u take a secred like that to the grave?) That's why it is "instinctual" magic, she knew how to do it by instinct but didn't know where the idea came from. It wouldn't work again because she doesn't have the gut feeling that she had when she hatched them initially, thats why it was a "one-time event" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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