THE OLD NAN AND THE BLOODRAVEN "CONNECTION"

[evita mgfs]

SORRY ABOUT THE FORMATTING. I CANNOT REDUCE FONT SIZE OR TYPE - NOR CAN I COPY AND PASTE. I REPORTED TO THE WEBMASTER.

THE OLD NAN and LORD BRYNDEN RIVERS’, OR BLOODRAVEN, “CONNECTION”

GREY WORDS and EVITA have gathered evidence from Martin’s novels that present specific similarities between Old Nan and Lord Brynden Rivers, or Bloodraven. Unsure of what the list of evidences might mean, we invite lots of fresh ideas.

Grey Words has conjured quite a few possibilities. First, look at the textual references that follow:

SIMILARITIES BETWEEN OLD NAN AND LORD BRYNDEN RIVERS

AGE: BEYOND MORTAL YEARS

OLD NAN: “No one really knew how old she was.” “She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the seven kingdoms” (AGoT 238).

BLOODRAVEN: “Most of him has gone into the tree,” says the child Leaf. “He has lived beyond the mortal span and yet he lingers” (ADwD 449).

PHYSICALLY WEAK

OLD NAN: She is “too weak to climb the stairs” (AGoT 240).

BLOODRAVEN: “Only a little strength remains in his flesh” (ADwD 449).

THINNING HAIR

OLD NAN: “Only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp” (AGoT 178)

BLOODRAVEN: “His white hair was fine and thin as root hair” (ADwD 17).

DIMINISHED EYESIGHT

OLD NAN: She is “almost blind” and she glances at Bran with “pale, filmy eyes” (AGoT 240).

BLOODRAVEN: “in the pale ruin that was his face was his one red eye” (ADwD 455).

WHISPERING

OLD NAN: “Her voice had dropped very low almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen” (AGoT 241).

BLOODRAVEN: “His voice was so soft that Bran had to strain to hear” (ADwD).

APPEARANCE

OLD NAN: She is “a very ugly old woman” who is “shrunken and wrinkled” (AGoT 240).

BLOODRAVEN: Lord Brynden is “half-corpse and half-tree” and he appears like “some ghastly statue made of twisted wood, old bone, and rotted wood” (ADwD 655).

FEAR NOT STORIES

OLD NAN: “Beyond the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk . . . but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night’s Watch are true. So go to sleep, my little Bran baby boy, and dream sweet dreams. There are no monsters here” (ADwD 62).

BLOODRAVEN: “Never fear the darkness, Bran . . . The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother’s milk. Darkness will make you strong” (ADwD 450).

STORYTELLERS/HISTORIANS

OLD NAN: After Bran tells Old Nan that he hates her stories, Old Nan responds: “My stories? No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are before me and after me, before you too” (AGoT 238).

BLOODRAVEN: “Men forget. Only the trees remember”

EVITA’S SPECS

Old Nan represents a clan historian, a sometimes forgetful story teller who entertains the Winterfell population with savory tales that focus on suspenseful deliveries; however, as a record-keeper, Old Nan is [maybe] only human. She may be a manifestation of “knowledge” ill-kept – Martin’s way of showing how history and records are lost over time when relegated to a human memory.

BR is a teacher married to the weirwood, accessing knowledge the First Men knew now forgotten in Winterfell.

The knowledge stored in the trees – especially if the dead souls surrender their wealth of knowledge to the weirwoods – is impressive.

But how can humans access knowledge stored in trees? Do they need the greenseer to communicate information?

Are BR and ON’s purposes to show how the elderly are perceived and treated in Martin’s world of ice and fire?

GREY WORDS’ SPECS

Is BR speaking through Old Nan at times, telling Bran what he needs to know?

Is Old Nan the old crone, another old crow that is a voice for BR?

Are these “old crows” liars? Or bearers of truth?

In a way, she is also de-sensitizing Bran to being around someone as ancient and crusty as BR.

Is ON's appearance & what she is saying, her reassurance that BR is not to be feared, may insinuate that he is not a monster or "bad guy"? As in: "beyond the Wall monsters lurk...there are no monsters here".

Are the Others creating wights because they're seeking the voice they need to express what they want?

Do they envy BR because he has a thousand voices and one as well?

This phrase from her tale made me realize the major danger to the realm now that the NW men are no longer true: "but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night’s Watch are true.”

Does this all foreshadow that the Wall is coming down?

The voices that BR has communicated through, such as ravens, are somewhat unreliable and easily dismissed by anyone listening. With Bran's ability to communicate and "speak" improving and exceeding the ability of BR, he might actually find a voice via Hodor.

NOW YOUR TURN TO SPECULATE

Please share. You are more than welcome to elaborate on any of the speculations we shared, and feel free to discuss the significance of the parallel text references. Or find more evidences of how BR and ON are similar.

[Lors]

I honestly can't relate them, but i do find this interesting, since i had never thought of this... And i am curious about Old Nan's identity... It is, i think, one of those misterysof the book that are so underestimated that when they are revealed , they are going to be shocking....

Also, hodor intrigues me... After many years of reading ASOIAF i have come to think that GRRM does everything in his book for a a very particular reason.... So, given the fact that Hodor is the only character of his sort in the entire series makes me curious....

[Caesar beyond the wall]

Did it ever occur to you that the physical weakness, diminished eyesight, thinning hair, whispering, a lifetime of stories and general unpleasant appearance might be because they are both just, like, really old?

[evita mgfs]

lors

I honestly can't relate them, but i do find this interesting, since i had never thought of this... And i am curious about Old Nan's identity... It is, i think, one of those misterysof the book that are so underestimated that when they are revealed , they are going to be shocking....

Also, hodor intrigues me... After many years of reading ASOIAF i have come to think that GRRM does everything in his book for a a very particular reason.... So, given the fact that Hodor is the only character of his sort in the entire series makes me curious....

I actually never equated them, but when I was rereading AGoT and ADwD at the same time, I realized that they might have some things in common. For instance, Old Nan tells Bran that all crows are liars.

In Bran's first POV after his fall, how does Old Nan even know Bran is thinking of the three-eyed crow, unless Bran confided in her. Even then, what does ON know about lying crows? Crows can mean the Night's Watch.

[evita mgfs]

:bowdown:CAESAR BEYOND THE WALL: Yes, of course they are senior citizens. But their "minds" are alert. They serve a purpose. They have made sacrifices in life, and they both appear duty bound. I also think they are highly respected by others. They are cared for in a way that some senior citizens in society today are not. Both have not been "retired" by outside forces - they are still contributing to the lives of others despite their advanced years.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think Old Nan knows about BR thats why she said Crow's are liars. But I'm not sure if Br knows about ON

[evita mgfs]

Posted A minute ago

I think Old Nan knows about BR thats why she said Crow's are liars. But I'm not sure if Br knows about ON

:bowdown:THE GOOD QUEEN ALYSANNE:

I speculated about how much ON knows. Do you believe she knows about Bloodraven specifically, as a greenseer? Or did she know BR as LC of the Night's Watch. Maybe ON knows about BR leaving the NW, and in this duplicity she labels him a liar. However, she says ALL crows are liars.

I cannot help but think of the Hunger Games Trilogy where the mockingjbirds carried oral messages to a location, but were intercepted and fed lies, then sent on their way. The Mockingbirds are denounced as liars.

I read the HG trilogy several years ago, so I may have confused my birds. I know the mockingjay is a hybrid mockingbird/bluejay - anyways, the lying crows remind me of the lying birds in the Hunger Games trilogy.

[Grey Words]

I think Old Nan knows about BR thats why she said Crow's are liars. But I'm not sure if Br knows about ON

Where BR has been watching Bran since his birth, I suppose he's well aware of ON's presence and influence. I do wonder if he's tried to influence her by attempting to skinchange her at times. Am looking for some textual insight on that.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

:bowdown:THE GOOD QUEEN ALYSANNE:

I speculated about how much ON knows. Do you believe she knows about Bloodraven specifically, as a greenseer? Or did she know BR as LC of the Night's Watch. Maybe ON knows about BR leaving the NW, and in this duplicity she labels him a liar. However, she says ALL crows are liars.

I cannot help but think of the Hunger Games Trilogy where the mockingjbirds carried oral messages to a location, but were intercepted and fed lies, then sent on their way. The Mockingbirds are denounced as liars.

I read the HG trilogy several years ago, so I may have confused my birds. I know the mockingjay is a hybrid mockingbird/bluejay - anyways, the lying crows remind me of the lying birds in the Hunger Games trilogy.

Considering that she is really old I think its highly possible she knows about a previous LC if she lived in the North, and maybe she even knows that he is a greenseer, ON believes in all the things that most people in the North think doesnt exist like CotF.

Nice catch about mockingjays, LF also has a mockingjay sigil and he is one of the biggest liars ;)

[Red Raven]

I don't think they're connected. They're both very old and wise, even though Old Nan does get some things wrong.

[evita mgfs]

:bowdown: :bowdown:GREY WORDS: GOOD CALL on BR visiting Bran in his dreams and being a presence to witness his birth and his father's as well. It almost sounds as if BR were a guardian angel for Bran. BR says that he was there when Bran fell. Maybe BR's presence when he "fell" spared Bran's life.

In Bran's 3EC dream, Bran is embraced by a protective grey mist which Martin mentions 7 times. The grey mist acts as the protective amniotic fluid in a womb, or maybe just a veil or blanket, more as a protective shield created by the forces that are the old gods.

It is this grey mist that announces Bran's presence in the godswood of WF on the wedding day of fake Arya.

Hey - WINTER FELL / BRAN FELL. [i need to look up a few more funnies that Martin uses to mess with us!]

:bowdown: :bowdown:THE GOOD QUEEN ALYSANNE: Yes, that makes sense. I was discussing ON's origins with someone else today, and that person strongly believed that ON was of the North. They would not have sent south for a wet nurse.

ON also recognizes the "wolf blood" in Bran, something Maester Luwin does not, despite his Citadel links and his time spent with the Stark family. ML has not a clue of how to help Bran with his wolf and tree dreams.

Also, BR picks up where ON leaves off, sort of! :dunce:

[Grey Words]

Am on my mobil & without the texts but have recalled speculation that ON & Dunk are the two seen kissing in one of Bran's dreams. Dunk had a connection with BR & was on his way north to Winterfell/the Wall in the SS D&E tale. I wonder if there was some acquaintance or connection with BR, ON & Dunk at Winterfell. At this point we can only wonder, but still worth considering.

[IRON BANK]

The concept about the wall interests me the most. also alot of what Old Nan says in her tales about the others is probably real.

[evita mgfs]

GREY WORDS: AWESOME CATCH! This seems pertinent to Old Nan's observation that "ALL crows are liars", yes? The pun is on crow/crows - the birds or the men of the Night's Watch.

If Bran had told Old Nan about his dream of the 3EC, then her response "ALL" may simply encompass all crows [those with feathers] are LIARS, INCLUDING THE ONES WITH THREE EYES. But - wasn't it the RAVENS that once carried messages orally on behalf of men? Or does Martin use the crow for the raven and vise versa?

We know the ravens can talk - Samwell teaches them to say 'snow', and Mormont's tricksy bird loves to hear himself talk as much as Tormund does!

The more I ponder this, the more I think ON's lying crows are the men of the NW. But is ON referring to the past or the present men on the Wall?

Hmmm - I need to revisit Dunk and Egg - but I just started the novella in Dangerous Women!

[Arya kiddin']

This is very interesting. Maybe they're working in tandem to help Bran reach his destiny. Someone did an analysis somewhere showing Bran meets 11 people on his journey from Winterfell to the cave (not sure where is it). Maybe Blood raven is the 12th - and the story of the Last Hero now stands complete.

[evita mgfs]

:bowdown: :bowdown:ARYA KIDDIN': Really? That sounds like a really fascinating read. If you find the thread, please share it with us. It does seem as if Bran transitions into one learning situation after another. Old Nan prepares him with from beyond the Wall, and Bran shares her stories with his traveling companions, Jojen and Meera. In return, they share a very important story with him, "The Knight of the Laughing Tree".

I have never speculated much on who the Last Hero is likely to be, although many, many others have. Based on what we have so far, to me Bran is the most "fitting" candidate - even meeting with the CotF. Good observations, Arya Kiddin' - Love the name! :cheers:

[Faydra]

They're just old!

Although I have to admit that there is something unusual about her (like knowing too much). Maybe we'll find some clues in the She-Wolves of Winterfell.

[King of the Road]

I think Old Nan can just spin a good yarn, there surely can't be any connection between such a minor character and BR.

[fuem]

who is to say tbh. It is more then possible BR to be speaking through old nan. Even Ned Stark knew her as old nan when he was young so she might have known him once might even be Holdoors father. POSSIBLE>>>>>>>>>

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I actually never equated them, but when I was rereading AGoT and ADwD at the same time, I realized that they might have some things in common. For instance, Old Nan tells Bran that all crows are liars.

In Bran's first POV after his fall, how does Old Nan even know Bran is thinking of the three-eyed crow, unless Bran confided in her. Even then, what does ON know about lying crows? Crows can mean the Night's Watch.

Bran was talking about how the crow had been lying about how he would be able to fly:

His eyes stung. He wanted to be down there, laughing and running. Angry at the thought, Bran knuckled away the tears before they could fall. His eighth name day had come and gone. He was almost a man grown now, too old to cry.

“It was just a lie,” he said bitterly, remembering the crow from his dream. “I can’t fly. I can’t even run.”

“Crows are all liars,” Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. “I know a story about a crow.”

Bran seems to have spend a lot of time thinking about it. Doesn't Luwin also talk about the crow at some point? Bran seems Old Nan constantly, since she is to watch over him. It's only logical he mentioned his dreams about the crow to her.

Edit: Also, that Nan is Hodors great-grandmother is a fact. A great-grandmother being alive isn't that weird. Walder Frey is even a great-great-grandfather, and he was born in 207 AL. So Old Nan was probably born a little after Walder, or around the same time.

Bloodraven was born around 175 AL