THE OLD NAN AND THE BLOODRAVEN "CONNECTION"

[Talking Hodor]

I'm pretty sure Old Nan will become much more important in coming books. She's mentioned by more characters more frequently than just about anybody who is no longer actively doing anything. We haven't even seen her in several books, and yet many many characters mention her still.

[Arya kiddin']

GREY WORDS: AWESOME CATCH! This seems pertinent to Old Nan's observation that "ALL crows are liars", yes? The pun is on crow/crows - the birds or the men of the Night's Watch.

If Bran had told Old Nan about his dream of the 3EC, then her response "ALL" may simply encompass all crows [those with feathers] are LIARS, INCLUDING THE ONES WITH THREE EYES. But - wasn't it the RAVENS that once carried messages orally on behalf of men? Or does Martin use the crow for the raven and vise versa?

We know the ravens can talk - Samwell teaches them to say 'snow', and Mormont's tricksy bird loves to hear himself talk as much as Tormund does!

The more I ponder this, the more I think ON's lying crows are the men of the NW. But is ON referring to the past or the present men on the Wall?

Hmmm - I need to revisit Dunk and Egg - but I just started the novella in Dangerous Women!

I saw this again Evita. this is a pretty solid point. If ON does know about BR, then the sentence "all crows are liars" can indeed be interpreted in various ways - or maybe a rather specific way, that Lord Bloodraven actually has some bigger agenda.

:bowdown: :bowdown:ARYA KIDDIN': Really? That sounds like a really fascinating read. If you find the thread, please share it with us. It does seem as if Bran transitions into one learning situation after another. Old Nan prepares him with from beyond the Wall, and Bran shares her stories with his traveling companions, Jojen and Meera. In return, they share a very important story with him, "The Knight of the Laughing Tree".

I have never speculated much on who the Last Hero is likely to be, although many, many others have. Based on what we have so far, to me Bran is the most "fitting" candidate - even meeting with the CotF. Good observations, Arya Kiddin' - Love the name! :cheers:

Thanks. :blush: If I fin the thread I'll definitely post it here.

[Grey Words]

The concept about the wall interests me the most. also alot of what Old Nan says in her tales about the others is probably real.

There is much that she says that is accurate and then there is her statement about the Others being old dead things, which they are not, only the wights are dead. Brans also says she tells stories one way and then another at different times. I wonder if her changing the stories is just signs of a feeble mind, or is it evidence of someone else speaking through her saying things that need to be told

This is very interesting. Maybe they're working in tandem to help Bran reach his destiny. Someone did an analysis somewhere showing Bran meets 11 people on his journey from Winterfell to the cave (not sure where is it). Maybe Blood raven is the 12th - and the story of the Last Hero now stands complete.

Have seen references to him as the Last Hero, though worry that he hasn't lost all his friends, "horse" or "dog" yet.

:bowdown: :bowdown:ARYA KIDDIN': Really? That sounds like a really fascinating read. If you find the thread, please share it with us. It does seem as if Bran transitions into one learning situation after another. Old Nan prepares him with from beyond the Wall, and Bran shares her stories with his traveling companions, Jojen and Meera. In return, they share a very important story with him, "The Knight of the Laughing Tree".

I have never speculated much on who the Last Hero is likely to be, although many, many others have. Based on what we have so far, to me Bran is the most "fitting" candidate - even meeting with the CotF. Good observations, Arya Kiddin' - Love the name! :cheers:

Meeting the CotF does strengthen his position as a candidate, though the Hero's subsequent losses, again, do concern me. It would be wonderful to see him be as valiant as he'd dreamed of being before his injury, but perhaps he'll find there are many definitions of valiant.

I think Old Nan can just spin a good yarn, there surely can't be any connection between such a minor character and BR.

She is certainly dismissed as being a silly old woman by many and it's easy to dismiss her, but she is quoted repeatedly and her many stories recollected by the Starks and other who have been around her - enough IMO to make her more than a minor character. She's had a tremendous impact on the Stark family and had a very long presence at Winterfell. She's been the one who carried and first taught Bran regarding the CotF, while Maester Luwin was hesitant first said they and the giants were all dead. We aren't even sure where she is now and some of us suspect she has a role yet to play.

Bran was talking about how the crow had been lying about how he would be able to fly:

Bran seems to have spend a lot of time thinking about it. Doesn't Luwin also talk about the crow at some point? Bran seems Old Nan constantly, since she is to watch over him. It's only logical he mentioned his dreams about the crow to her.

Edit: Also, that Nan is Hodors great-grandmother is a fact. A great-grandmother being alive isn't that weird. Walder Frey is even a great-great-grandfather, and he was born in 207 AL. So Old Nan was probably born a little after Walder, or around the same time.

Bloodraven was born around 175 AL

I wonder if ON telling Bran that all crows lie is her way of warning him to use his own judgement in assessing the merit of what BR or men of the Night's Watch say? Also a way of protecting him from disappointment if things don't work out as he's been set up to believe and to possibly have alternate plans: teaching him to "think on his feet" and not surrender to his disability or defer to the judgement of those around him.

Yes the text does say that she's Hodor's great grandmother and his size it what leads to the suspicion that there was a relationship between Dunk and a young Nan. Dunk's bloodline being responsible for Hodor's immense size.

[Mayura]

The only connections I see between Nan and Bloorraven is that they are both old and they know of the stories from Beyond the Wall.

As Nan had been brought in Winterfell some generations ago to take care of a baby boy Stark, I've always wondered whether she was in fact either a wildling or part of an older generation of northmen who remembered and taught their legends more readily than it is the case at the time AGOT starts. As mentionned here as well, a living great-grandmother (I don't actually remember whether Hodor is actually her grandson or another blood relative) isn't that surprising in Westeros, we have seen other occurences of people living to a very old age (like Aemon and Pops Frey).

One thing is sure: Old Nan knows what's up beyond the Wall. We don't know whether it is because she has experienced it herself or because she is just telling Bran stories that she thinks are just folk stories. However, it seems to be that she might have some knowledge about the last greenseer but I believe she would have told Bran more clearly he is not to deal with the three eyed crow if she truly knew there could be some huge danger for Bran in doing so. I also thought about the sentence "crows are all liars" when I read it but I think it was maybe more of a passing comment (about a past memory belonging to her personal life for example) or another bit of folk story she was saying there. Again she is so attached to the Starks and to Bran that I don't see why she wouldn't tell him more about BR and cie if she knew what was going to happen.

About the others, I think the term she uses to describe them is "stalking shadows", which is quite accurate as indeed they don't leave footprints on the snow and aren't visible to men's eyes unless they want to be seen.

In the WOIAF, Old Nan is reported to have been taken to the Dreadfort with the other women of Winterfell, so I do hope we will see more of her in the future!

Edit: oh and I don't think when she is talking about the lying crows she is talking about the NW! In fact, the NW seems to be pretty well considered by ON, as she tells Bran "there are no monsters here, they cannot pass as long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the NW stay true". Therefore she is probably not telling Bran to be careful about the NW imo.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

This is very interesting. Maybe they're working in tandem to help Bran reach his destiny. Someone did an analysis somewhere showing Bran meets 11 people on his journey from Winterfell to the cave (not sure where is it). Maybe Blood raven is the 12th - and the story of the Last Hero now stands complete.

I think the theory works as 1 divided by 2.

Bran cant walk so he is half and he meets 6 people which is 12 divided by 2

[evita mgfs]

Bran seems to have spend a lot of time thinking about it. Doesn't Luwin also talk about the crow at some point? Bran seems Old Nan constantly, since she is to watch over him. It's only logical he mentioned his dreams about the crow to her.

Edit: Also, that Nan is Hodors great-grandmother is a fact. A great-grandmother being alive isn't that weird. Walder Frey is even a great-great-grandfather, and he was born in 207 AL. So Old Nan was probably born a little after Walder, or around the same time.

Bloodraven was born around 175 AL

:bowdown:Rhaenys_Targaryen: GREAT OBSERVATIONS!

The quoted text from Bran’s POV does not divulge Bran sharing information about the 3EC with ON at this juncture. :agree: I AGREE, actually, with what you say: the revelation of Bran’s dream is something Martin has take place off-page – we as readers infer from the familiar way the conversations progress with Bran and both ON and Maester Luwin, that indeed THEY KNOW.

Thank you so very much for sharing. Your references to Nan’s age correlating to Walder’s is an excellent way to present a point with a good illustration. The dates help me as well. It never fails - I learn so much whether reading or writing on the forum.

[evita mgfs]

I'm pretty sure Old Nan will become much more important in coming books. She's mentioned by more characters more frequently than just about anybody who is no longer actively doing anything. We haven't even seen her in several books, and yet many many characters mention her still.

TALKING HODOR: I AGREE! :agree: But maybe I am being delusional. I just loved the character of Old Nan - her mysteriousness, her vast knowledge, and her dramatic performances to please the Starks. She appears more in the novels than in the television series.

Now, I am not sure about this, but I think I read in a thread that the actress who played ON died. I do not know the actress's name, either. I am sure it is on IMBD or the HBO site. I hope that she is recast and not abandoned because of the actress who originated her role. However, I have seen such a thing done in television series and certain movies.

[TheCrannogDweller]

However, she says ALL crows are liars.

Yes, but even though he was associated with them, Brynden isn't a crow - he's a raven. Bloodraven from Raventree hall.

Maybe there is something to that distinction.

As far as their similarities and relationship go, maybe they are just as related as Hermione Granger and Albus Dumbledore. JKR has said that she uses both those characters to introduce knowledge in her books - because when it comes from them, nobody doubts its veracity.

Maybe Bloodraven and Old Nan work in the same way for Martin. He uses them to introduce old knowledge.

Edit: But just for the heck of it, let's crack a pot: Old Nan is actually Shiera. :wideeyed:

[Grey Words]

I'm pretty sure Old Nan will become much more important in coming books. She's mentioned by more characters more frequently than just about anybody who is no longer actively doing anything. We haven't even seen her in several books, and yet many many characters mention her still.

:agree: absolutely. In searching her name on Kindle it's remarkable how often she is mentioned and her stories are quoted by a variety of characters.

The only connections I see between Nan and Bloorraven is that they are both old and they know of the stories from Beyond the Wall.

As Nan had been brought in Winterfell some generations ago to take care of a baby boy Stark, I've always wondered whether she was in fact either a wildling or part of an older generation of northmen who remembered and taught their legends more readily than it is the case at the time AGOT starts. As mentionned here as well, a living great-grandmother (I don't actually remember whether Hodor is actually her grandson or another blood relative) isn't that surprising in Westeros, we have seen other occurences of people living to a very old age (like Aemon and Pops Frey).

One thing is sure: Old Nan knows what's up beyond the Wall. We don't know whether it is because she has experienced it herself or because she is just telling Bran stories that she thinks are just folk stories. However, it seems to be that she might have some knowledge about the last greenseer but I believe she would have told Bran more clearly he is not to deal with the three eyed crow if she truly knew there could be some huge danger for Bran in doing so. I also thought about the sentence "crows are all liars" when I read it but I think it was maybe more of a passing comment (about a past memory belonging to her personal life for example) or another bit of folk story she was saying there. Again she is so attached to the Starks and to Bran that I don't see why she wouldn't tell him more about BR and cie if she knew what was going to happen.

About the others, I think the term she uses to describe them is "stalking shadows", which is quite accurate as indeed they don't leave footprints on the snow and aren't visible to men's eyes unless they want to be seen.

In the WOIAF, Old Nan is reported to have been taken to the Dreadfort with the other women of Winterfell, so I do hope we will see more of her in the future!

Edit: oh and I don't think when she is talking about the lying crows she is talking about the NW! In fact, the NW seems to be pretty well considered by ON, as she tells Bran "there are no monsters here, they cannot pass as long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the NW stay true". Therefore she is probably not telling Bran to be careful about the NW imo.

Old Nan has certainly been at Winterfell for a very long time as Ned remembers her being there and being Old Nan when he was a boy. I suppose that it's possible she came there originally as a wildling, or from some wildling stock as she does have a wealth of detailed knowledge regarding what exists north of the Wall. That she hasn't shared any info on BR, with Bran if she is aware of him, is a very good point - perhaps he is just aware of her through his observations. I do think there is a chance she knows him and possibly knows more about his situation at the Wall as LC via the Starks.

I think the theory works as 1 divided by 2.

Bran cant walk so he is half and he meets 6 people which is 12 divided by 2

Very interesting! Bran is essentially 2 persons in 1.

:bowdown:Rhaenys_Targaryen: GREAT OBSERVATIONS!

The quoted text from Bran’s POV does not divulge Bran sharing information about the 3EC with ON at this juncture. :agree: I AGREE, actually, with what you say: the revelation of Bran’s dream is something Martin has take place off-page – we as readers infer from the familiar way the conversations progress with Bran and both ON and Maester Luwin, that indeed THEY KNOW.

Thank you so very much for sharing. Your references to Nan’s age correlating to Walder’s is an excellent way to present a point with a good illustration. The dates help me as well. It never fails - I learn so much whether reading or writing on the forum.

Thanks so much Raenys T. and Evita for sorting out that Bran hadn't divulged the 3EC info to Old Nan at that earlier point!

TALKING HODOR: I AGREE! :agree: But maybe I am being delusional. I just loved the character of Old Nan - her mysteriousness, her vast knowledge, and her dramatic performances to please the Starks. She appears more in the novels than in the television series.

Now, I am not sure about this, but I think I read in a thread that the actress who played ON died. I do not know the actress's name, either. I am sure it is on IMBD or the HBO site. I hope that she is recast and not abandoned because of the actress who originated her role. However, I have seen such a thing done in television series and certain movies.

Yes, Evita, Margaret John the actress who played ON did pass away in 2011. Am sure there will be plenty of us waiting eagerly for word of her being re-cast.

:cheers: and thanks to all of you, your comments are appreciated - all opinions respected!

[Loralei Pyke]

I also think Old Nan will turn out to have an important role to play. She is referenced too much to be otherwise, I think.

It may be slightly off-topic, but I found the quote below very interesting:

About the others, I think the term she uses to describe them is "stalking shadows", which is quite accurate as indeed they don't leave footprints on the snow and aren't visible to men's eyes unless they want to be seen.

I wonder about a possible connection to the R'hllor-generated shadow that killed Renly?

I am very interested to see how the whole panoply of The Great Other, R'hllor, the Old Gods and the Seven are connected/opposed. As many have stated, I am not certain they are truly opposed, or even different from each other.

Obviously hoping for more in TWOW :-)

[Grey Words]

Yes, but even though he was associated with them, Brynden isn't a crow - he's a raven. Bloodraven from Raventree hall.

Maybe there is something to that distinction.

As far as their similarities and relationship go, maybe they are just as related as Hermione Granger and Albus Dumbledore. JKR has said that she uses both those characters to introduce knowledge in her books - because when it comes from them, nobody doubts its veracity.

Maybe Bloodraven and Old Nan work in the same way for Martin. He uses them to introduce old knowledge.

Edit: But just for the heck of it, let's crack a pot: Old Nan is actually Shiera. :wideeyed:

Ha! Thanks for that obvious point that's easily overlooked - he is a raven and was a crow for only a short period of his long life.

Old Nan is Shiera... :rofl: I love a thoroughly cracked pot!

[Mayura]

Old Nan has certainly been at Winterfell for a very long time as Ned remembers her being there and being Old Nan when he was a boy. I suppose that it's possible she came there originally as a wildling, or from some wildling stock as she does have a wealth of detailed knowledge regarding what exists north of the Wall. That she hasn't shared any info on BR, with Bran if she is aware of him, is a very good point - perhaps he is just aware of her through his observations. I do think there is a chance she knows him and possibly knows more about his situation at the Wall as LC via the Starks.

Oh I am quite sure Old Nan knows about Boodraven and probably knows some stories and gossips surrounding the man, without any doubt. I guess she must be around the same age as Aemon, therefore she should have been around at the time of BR and the other great bastards.

But I am doubtful about the fact she knows his identity as the three eyed crow. However it is certain BR knows of Old Nan and he knows everything she has told Bran.

So, yes, ON has been the primarily source for Bran's knowledge about the world that lies beyond the Wall. To this date, everything ON ever told him has been very very useful and has proven to be true. And I think that is the purpose she served for the story, she is one of the only one we have seen who lives by the North's motto, she REMEMBERS a lot of things other northmen have long forgotten and she might be of a great help to help explaining why there is this supernatural winter appearing right in Winterfell and she might know what needs to be done to prevent it.

We have not seen the last of old nan :) ! But to me she seems to be more like the spirit of Winterfell/the North than an ally (or an antagonist?) to BR.

[evita mgfs]

Loralei Pyke

I also think Old Nan will turn out to have an important role to play. She is referenced too much to be otherwise, I think.

It may be slightly off-topic, but I found the quote below very interesting:

Mayura, on 06 Jan 2014 - 5:09 PM, said:

I wonder about a possible connection to the R'hllor-generated shadow that killed Renly?

I am very interested to see how the whole panoply of The Great Other, R'hllor, the Old Gods and the Seven are connected/opposed. As many have stated, I am not certain they are truly opposed, or even different from each other.

Obviously hoping for more in TWOW :-)

:bowdown:LORALEI PYKE: GOOD OBSERVATIONS! I wish to add the deity my darling Arya serves - Him-of-Many-Faces. You are not alone eagerly awaiting the Winds of Winter.

I started Martin's new novella TPatQ - The Princess and the Queen. It is wonderful - captured my attention from the first two pages. [i will not give details just in case you and others have not read it!]

Any way, Martin gives us "little fixes" now and then, yes? It may be a long wait, but we have our Land of I&F maps, the AGoT illustrated book, Vol 2, a few gift chapters, and lots more! He is a generous author. I do not complain about how long he is taking. I want him to make his manuscript a literary epic, so he needs a good "few" years. Not 10 years. I think five years is a good number. If we get it before then, yippee!

I have a feeling that the many forces serving the varied godhoods may need to work together to restore balance to the land of ice and fire.

Thank you for responding. :cheers:

[BitsOfBrains]

I think Old Nan still has a role to play.

Not sure what it is.

Maybe she will die in a way that lets Bran get at all her memories or something?

"All crows are liars" sounds an awful lot like maybe she got slighted by a man of the Nights Watch at some point?

Maybe, just maybe, Old Nan (then hot young nan) got knocked up by Blood Raven, who is both a crow and a raven. Her pregnancy makes her a wet nurse and her lack of a husband/bastard son makes her unwanted in her mountain village so she goes to Winterfell.

So Hodors grand father, or great grandfather, or great great grandfather is Bloodraven? I am 100% sure of it now.

The question then becomes who has the giant DNA, ON or BR, or someone later in the genetic line?

[Grey Words]

I also think Old Nan will turn out to have an important role to play. She is referenced too much to be otherwise, I think.

It may be slightly off-topic, but I found the quote below very interesting:

I wonder about a possible connection to the R'hllor-generated shadow that killed Renly?

I am very interested to see how the whole panoply of The Great Other, R'hllor, the Old Gods and the Seven are connected/opposed. As many have stated, I am not certain they are truly opposed, or even different from each other.

Obviously hoping for more in TWOW :-)

There are so many references to the WWs and wights as shadows, and then along with Mel's shadow babies on the "assumed' opposite side are R'hllor the God of Flame and Shadow, shadow binders, the Shadow lands and Patchface singing about the shadows coming to dance and stay. Whether there is a connection, parity or ? is something you're not alone in pondering. I've though long and hard about the Jungian archetypal Shadow as the negative aspect of certain personalities too....but yeah, off topic a bit. I do salute your questioning whether they're connected or opposed! Am patiently waiting for TWoW, too. At least we're getting much closer to season 4 of GoT.

Oh I am quite sure Old Nan knows about Boodraven and probably knows some stories and gossips surrounding the man, without any doubt. I guess she must be around the same age as Aemon, therefore she should have been around at the time of BR and the other great bastards.

But I am doubtful about the fact she knows his identity as the three eyed crow. However it is certain BR knows of Old Nan and he knows everything she has told Bran.

So, yes, ON has been the primarily source for Bran's knowledge about the world that lies beyond the Wall. To this date, everything ON ever told him has been very very useful and has proven to be true. And I think that is the purpose she served for the story, she is one of the only one we have seen who lives by the North's motto, she REMEMBERS a lot of things other northmen have long forgotten and she might be of a great help to help explaining why there is this supernatural winter appearing right in Winterfell and she might know what needs to be done to prevent it.

We have not seen the last of old nan :) ! But to me she seems to be more like the spirit of Winterfell/the North than an ally (or an antagonist?) to BR.

Wow, love that image of Old Nan as the embodiment of the spirit of Winterfell/the North and she sure does REMEMBER. For being dismissed as a doddering, drooling old woman she has incredible recall of the detailed stories she shares.

[Aetta]

A lot of people disliked Brynden Rivers, and Nan may be no exception. However, I think this just builds the dichotomy of his character, I don't think it means he is actually a liar or evil. After all, you never read of Aemon saying anything nasty about BR. Being related, he may be more accepting of BR's flaws and sees him as a peer...and speaking of Aemon, was Nan calling him an untrustworthy liar? I never took the sweet Maester that way. The only "lie" we know of is Aemon not parading around the fact that he's a Targ-but I believe that is well in accordance with the oath of the NW.

[Iced]

These just seem like similarities between most people who live to a very old age. They get weak, quiet, lose their sight, tell many stories because they know many storied from their many years... I'm sorry but I can't see any connection that stands out. They're both just incredibly old.

[shk12344]

These just seem like similarities between most people who live to a very old age. They get weak, quiet, lose their sight, tell many stories because they know many storied from their many years... I'm sorry but I can't see any connection that stands out. They're both just incredibly old.

Yep, I agree. She is just a very old woman who likes to tell story and that's just about how far her story will go. Just telling old tales.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

:bowdown:Rhaenys_Targaryen: GREAT OBSERVATIONS!

Loving the enthusiasm here :D Thank you :)

[Arya kiddin']

Loving the enthusiasm here :D Thank you :)

ikr :D