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The Grey Wolf

Ruling Families before the Andals

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I've looked around the subsection and haven't seen this question come up so I decided to make a thread about it. So my question is if the world book will go into any detail about the First Men families that ruled Westeros before the Andals? An example would be the family of the Griffin King slain by Ser Artys Arryn. Also, what would my fellow board members hope to find out from the world book about these families? Personally, I would want to know their heraldry and mottoes most.


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Considering the stormlands are in the south House Durrendon is most likely Andal with some First Men blood through intermarriage. The Lannisters are the same since they are Andal but trace themselves back to Lann the Clever [a First Men] through the female line.

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Considering the stormlands are in the south House Durrendon is most likely Andal with some First Men blood through intermarriage. The Lannisters are the same since they are Andal but trace themselves back to Lann the Clever [a First Men] through the female line.

Are we sure it isn't descended through the male line because it seems that the first Storm king, Durran was of the Durrendon line. Maybe they were one of only families who managed to hold onto it and just intermarried with Andal females like you said.

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North - Starks


Riverlands - House Mudd


Vale - Griffin King


Reach - Garth Greenhand's House - Maybe House Gardener?


Stormlands - The Storm King's House - Maybe House Durendon?


Westerlands - House of Lann the Clever?


Dorne - Never united as a kingdom before Nymeria's arrival 1000 years ago


Iron Isles - The Grey King


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The storm kings were first men and ruled the Stormlands and some areas of the trident.... The west was ruled by the Casterly's and the reach was not existent till House Gardener. House Gardener is Andal... The Hightowers however ruled as Kings...

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The storm kings were first men and ruled the Stormlands and some areas of the trident.... The west was ruled by the Casterly's and the reach was not existent till House Gardener. House Gardener is Andal... The Hightowers however ruled as Kings...

Not quite. The original Storm Kings were First Men, yes, but they only ruled parts of the Trident within the last 500 years or so, long after the Andals had conquered the South. The Starks were the only First Man house to endure after the Andal conquest between 3000 and 6000 years ago, so the Storm Kings that conquered the Trident in recent centuries were Andal derivatives of the original First Man house.

The Casterlys ruled one of the hundred kingdoms of the First Men, long before there were Seven Kingdoms. So although they were kings of Casterly Rock, this was by no means the same as being kings of the entire Westerlands. There would have been a dozen or so small kingdoms scattered across what is now the Westerlands.

Garth Greenhand was the Gardener King from the Age of Heroes, and would seem to be the founding figure that the Reach traces its royal family to. The Hightowers, in similar vein to the Casterlys, were one of the hundred kings of the First Men, but their rule would only have been over Oldtown and its surrounds, and not over the entire Reach as it is known today. The first kings of the entire Reach are not known thus far in the books.

The only true Kings that ruled over one of the Seven Kingdoms in its entirety before the Andals came, that still remain today, are the Starks.

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Not quite. The original Storm Kings were First Men, yes, but they only ruled parts of the Trident within the last 500 years or so, long after the Andals had conquered the South. The Starks were the only First Man house to endure after the Andal conquest between 3000 and 6000 years ago, so the Storm Kings that conquered the Trident in recent centuries were Andal derivatives of the original First Man house.

But wouldn't the Storm Kings have still ruled the Stormlands even if they didn't always rule the Trident. These are the Kings would would still be First Men.

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Didn't the Martell who married Nymeria have some authority in Dorne before the Rhoynar arrived?

No, Dorne was always warring and they had many petty Kings and states. No one was ever strong enough to take full control over Dorne until the Rhonyar Invasion when Mors Martell and Nymeria teamed up and conquered the rest.

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But wouldn't the Storm Kings have still ruled the Stormlands even if they didn't always rule the Trident. These are the Kings would would still be First Men.

Yes, but what we don't know yet is what the the Storm King family name was before the Andals came. The Storm King is a title similar to King in the North, but where we know the King in the North has always been a Stark, we know that the First Man Storm Kings were defeated and replaced by the Andal invaders, who simply kept the title when the Andal Durendons took the Throne.

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Something else that must be kept in mind is that the Seven Kingdoms did not exist before the Andals came. So there was no Reach or Westerlands or Stormlands.

In the Reach there would have been Hightower kings of Oldtown, Greenhand kings of Highgarden and maybe kings of the Mander etc.

The Storm King would probably have ruled Storm's End and its surrounds, with a few other kings ruling different parts of the Stormlands. It was the Andals that united these petty First Man kingdoms into the 6 southron kingdoms that we know today.

Only in the North did the Starks rule most of the North from their seat at Winterfell . And I would say that prior to 4000 years ago when they did not yet rule the entire North, the title Kings of Winter was used, probably derived from Kings of Winterfell.

Only once they conquered the whole North around 4000 years ago did they probably change the title to Kings in the North.

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Worth noting too that according to folklore, the First King is buried in the North, in Barrowton. Yes, his remains could have been transplanted there long after his death. But I find it interesting that the region with the deepest ties to the First Men also might be the resting place of the king who led the First Men to the continent through Dorne.


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I think it's possible the concept of houses such as we understand them in Westeros is an Andal concept. That's not to say families and traditions didn't exist before them, but they may not have been codified or tracked in this manner among the First Men.


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No it's pretty well established that the First Men had a very similar concept of family/houses to the Andal's:


The Northern families being the prime example, having only small pockets of Andal beliefs here and there are very much the same as how they were before.


but we can also look at the Bracken's, Mudd's, Casterly's, Dayne's, Greyiron or Hightower's all have established histories before the invasion then giving into Andal faith or being slaughtered.


And the weird Blackwood's who survived as First Men in the south.


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Didn't the Martell who married Nymeria have some authority in Dorne before the Rhoynar arrived?

Before the Rhoynar the Yronwoods was the strongest House in Dorne, but didn't rule all of it.

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