Possible Crackpot: Did Aerys foresee Jon's birth?

[Ser Leftwich]

Aerys didn't need a dream to want to burn down KL, it was the next logical step for a physcotic,pyromaniac tyrant who was about to hand over his ancestors creation and capital city to lesser houses

No characters need any motivation beyond their own wants. But some have acted out of honor or love or duty. And some have because of dreams of dragons and prophecy.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Huh. I've been trying to puzzle out the meaning behind the reversal of the sequence of words shared by the two passages. That's an interesting possibility. Now that I think about it ....

Aerys burning up along with King's Landing would cause a "king" to become "charred bones and cooked meat" and eventually just "ashes." That's the sequence in Aerys' statement. The sequence in Jon's passage is the reverse, perhaps signifying a rebirth? "[A]shes" become "cooked meat and charred bone" with the next step being ... "king?" In the same chapter, shortly after this passage, there's foreshadowing of Jon being offered the Iron Throne ("He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon’s mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me.")

It's possible that it signifies a rebirth. Note too that the imagery is related to wights, dead things that have come back to life. A sort of "rebirth."

I edited this into my other thing already, but "ashes," "charred bones" and "cooked meat," in those combinations (i.e. charred meat doesn't count) and in that level of proximity (they occur together as a triplet) only occur when describing Aerys's line about Robert, or Jon and the wight.

[Schmendrick]

It's possible that it signifies a rebirth. Note too that the imagery is related to wights, dead things that have come back to life. A sort of "rebirth."

I edited this into my other thing already, but "ashes," "charred bones" and "cooked meat," in those combinations (i.e. charred meat doesn't count) and in that level of proximity (they occur together as a triplet) only occur when describing Aerys's line about Robert, or Jon and the wight.

That's pretty strong evidence that there's an intended connection there.

Interestingly, Jon's burned hand ("cooked meat?") seems to be the part of him that he uses whenever somebody "wakes the dragon" (it holds the sword when he goes nuts on Iron Emmet, it clasps the spear when he yanks it from the ground in ADwD, it lifts Ser Alliser off the ground ....). Is Jon's burned hand the part of him that has already begun the transformation?

Also, here's a little more from the Jon passage:

Whatever demonic force moved Othor had been driven out by the flames; the twisted thing they had found in the ashes had been no more than cooked meat and charred bone. Yet in his nightmare he faced it again … and this time the burning corpse wore Lord Eddard’s features. It was his father’s skin that burst and blackened, his father’s eyes that ran liquid down his cheeks like jellied tears. Jon did not understand why that should be or what it might mean, but it frightened him more than he could say.

I could never figure out what the bolded part meant. Why is Jon dreaming of Eddard burning here? Now it occurs to me that when Aerys wanted to burn the city, he intended to burn Robert's forces, and Lord Eddard was the one in command of the van. If Aerys had succeeded, Eddard might well have burned ... just like in Jon's dream.

[Jô Maltese]

(...)

Also, here's a little more from the Jon passage:

I could never figure out what the bolded part meant. Why is Jon dreaming of Eddard burning here? Now it occurs to me that when Aerys wanted to burn the city, he intended to burn Robert's forces, and Lord Eddard was the one in command of the van. If Aerys had succeeded, Eddard might well have burned ... just like in Jon's dream.

I have always thought Jon was actuating dreaming of Rickard being burnt by Aerys. But i can't explain why except if Rickard was Jon's father after all. Which I don't believe, and yes I know this is not a R+L = J thread ;)

ETA: Rickard, not Brandon.

[Julian Rayne]

That's pretty strong evidence that there's an intended connection there.

Interestingly, Jon's burned hand ("cooked meat?") seems to be the part of him that he uses whenever somebody "wakes the dragon" (it holds the sword when he goes nuts on Iron Emmet, it clasps the spear when he yanks it from the ground in ADwD, it lifts Ser Alliser off the ground ....). Is Jon's burned hand the part of him that has already begun the transformation?

Also, here's a little more from the Jon passage:

I could never figure out what the bolded part meant. Why is Jon dreaming of Eddard burning here? Now it occurs to me that when Aerys wanted to burn the city, he intended to burn Robert's forces, and Lord Eddard was the one in command of the van. If Aerys had succeeded, Eddard might well have burned ... just like in Jon's dream.

This is a stretch, but maybe he's dreaming of Rhaegar's funeral pyre. He projects Ned's face onto Rhaegar because he thinks that Ned is his father.

[J. Stargaryen]

Really interesting idea. And there's some textual support for it too.

One of Dany's vision from tHotU (ACoK, Daenerys IV):

Jon's thoughts after he killed the wight in Mormont's solar (AGoT, Jon VIII):

I always just took this to be foreshadowing that Jon was a "king." But it's interesting that George tied the foreshadowing to Aerys' statement about burning down KL ....

Very nice catch, Schmendrick!

You know, until your post I was considering the possibility that the dragon who was "born" from the sack was (f)Aegon. After all, it was the sack of KL that allowed Varys to put the imposter in play in the first place.

Combine that with the implied metaphor of Aerys burning down KL and more specifically the Red Keep, which is literally the house of House Targaryen. In other words, Aerys thought a dragon would be born from the destruction of House Targaryen. At first I was thinking this meant Aegon Blackfyre.

"Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon."

But after reading your post I had to remind myself of my own favorite endgame theory: that Jon Snow – a true dragon – will rule Westeros as a Stark. And if that happens, well, I think it's safe to say that House Targaryen will be vanquished in name.

---

Apple Martini and Ser Leftwich, I'm glad that my post was able to provide a spark for a really interesting theory. Great work, guys! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Iona]

I'm liking this explanation, it gives another layer to Aerys' motivation behind burning the whole city.

I've always tried to somehow reason it out. There's a strong link between burning stuff and procreation for Aerys, as evidenced by him visiting Rhaella's bedchamber (only?) after burning something. It would be sort of logical from his crazy point of view that something really great, such as a dragon, would be born from lighting a really huge fire. But if he actually had a vision, it would be a more solid (somehow that just doesn't sound right) motivation for him.

[kiasyd]

Also, here's a little more from the Jon passage:

I could never figure out what the bolded part meant. Why is Jon dreaming of Eddard burning here? Now it occurs to me that when Aerys wanted to burn the city, he intended to burn Robert's forces, and Lord Eddard was the one in command of the van. If Aerys had succeeded, Eddard might well have burned ... just like in Jon's dream.

The meaning of this could relate to Ned's promise to Lyanna. This promise - Jon - may have impacted so much Ned's morals that ultimately caused his undoing?

[Jô Maltese]

(...)

Quote

I could never figure out what the bolded part meant. Why is Jon dreaming of Eddard burning here? Now it occurs to me that when Aerys wanted to burn the city, he intended to burn Robert's forces, and Lord Eddard was the one in command of the van. If Aerys had succeeded, Eddard might well have burned ... just like in Jon's dream.

You got me thinking... Could it simply be Jon foreshadowing Eddard's Death? Bran and Rickon foreshadow it in a Stark way, by dreaming of him in the Crypt, but as a Targaryen Jon would foreshadow it with burning away?

EDIT: spelling

[FittleLinger]

Interesting.

On a tangent, did Aerion Brightflame's drinking of wildfire "produce" a (metaphorical) dragon in any way? Because he might have dreamed this as well. Didn't it make maester Aemon next in succession?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is a stretch, but maybe he's dreaming of Rhaegar's funeral pyre. He projects Ned's face onto Rhaegar because he thinks that Ned is his father.

That's an interesting idea. And Schmendrick isn't alone, I've wondered too what it means that Jon dreamt of Ned in that way.

I'm liking this explanation, it gives another layer to Aerys' motivation behind burning the whole city.

I've always tried to somehow reason it out. There's a strong link between burning stuff and procreation for Aerys, as evidenced by him visiting Rhaella's bedchamber (only?) after burning something. It would be sort of logical from his crazy point of view that something really great, such as a dragon, would be born from lighting a really huge fire. But if he actually had a vision, it would be a more solid (somehow that just doesn't sound right) motivation for him.

I think it also fits into the theme of dragon dreams often ultimately destroying or misleading the people who have them. They drove Daeron to diink, perhaps Aerion to drink wildfire, Daemon to fail at Whitewalls, etc. Aemon isn't exaggerating when he says that the dreams were his brothers' downfall. Maybe one was Aerys's too.

[J. Stargaryen]

Interesting.

On a tangent, did Aerion Brightflame's drinking of wildfire "produce" a (metaphorical) dragon in any way? Because he might have dreamed this as well. Didn't it make maester Aemon next in succession?

I was wondering about that too, which reminded me of a possible connection between Varys and Aerion via Egg:

“I [Egg] remember, when I was little, he [Aerion] used to come into my bedchamber at night and put his knife between my legs. He had too many brothers, he’d say, maybe one night he’d make me his sister, then he could marry me. He threw my cat in the well too. He says he didn’t, but he always lies.”

- The Hedge Knight

The man [Varys] who stepped through the door was plump, perfumed, powdered, and as hairless as an egg.

- AGoT, Catelyn IV (Varys' first appearance in the series)

That's not to say that Aerion castrated Varys, but it might be a thematic clue, if it's anything at all. It wouldn't surprise me either, if Aerion had married, or arranged a marriage for his offspring, to some Blackfyre as a way to get back at House Targaryen and Westeros for passing him over in the succession. His nickname really ought to have been Aerion Spiteflame. ;)

[FittleLinger]

I was wondering about that too, which reminded me of a possible connection between Varys and Aerion via Egg:

- The Hedge Knight

- AGoT, Catelyn IV (Varys' first appearance in the series)

That's not to say that Aerion castrated Varys, but it might be a thematic clue, if it's anything at all. It wouldn't surprise me either, if Aerion had married, or arranged a marriage for his offspring, to some Blackfyre as a way to get back at House Targaryen and Westeros for passing him over in the succession. His nickname really ought to have been Aerion Spiteflame. ;)

Not impossible at all, but to me the thematic connection is more between Varys' shaved head and Egg's shaved head ;) Either way, a good catch!

Now that I come to think of it, Aerion's "suicide" did produce metaphorical dragons - one at the Wall and one on the Iron Throne, both important in their own way.

[J. Stargaryen]

Not impossible at all, but to me the thematic connection is more between Varys' shaved head and Egg's shaved head ;) Either way, a good catch!

Now that I come to think of it, Aerion's "suicide" did produce metaphorical dragons - one at the Wall and one on the Iron Throne, both important in their own way.

I agree that the castration connection isn't as strong, but there is an overlap there. Though with Egg it was only threatened.

In correction of my previous post, apparently it was Aerion's son who was passed over in the succession, not him. Aerion was only exiled. He actually died in 232, while the Great Council was in 233. Still, I could see Spiteflame, or possibly his son, throwing in with the Blackfyres. The fact that he and Bittersteel both served with the Second Sons might be a clue in that direction too. Though I must admit I haven't researched this at all. Just throwing it out there.

[oursisthefury69]

leftwitch- "no characters need any motivation beyond their own wants"- I cant even begin to analyze what that quote means in this context, and id appreciate of you read the following comment to better understand what I meant, because I don't think we're understanding eachother.........) MY Point is if I had no prior knowledge of the series, and you then described to me the actions we've thusly been informed aerys took since the beginning of the rebellion; I.e burning lords, exiling lords, raping and hurting his sister-wife ect. and then told me somebody eventually takes over his city after the rebellion/war the aforementioned king helped incite, and asked me WHAT DOES HE DO NEXT? One of the first probably 5 things id guess is he burns himself and the city to the ground(even if I wasn't familiar with tolkiens works and martins respect for him) The origin of Aerys new-found paranoia/insanity is directly related to a specific historical event(Duskendale Defiance) which is a seemingly accepted fact by all westerosi. (I'm really interested in what happened their and caused his downhill spiral; and I don't think if IT IS something we learn more of that it won't be as simple as "he was in a cell for 6 months and it broke his mind") Also if all of aerys prior travesties had been explained at once in the first book, then I could see his insanity being a red herring for what really was another destructive targaryen dream; but George has slowly gave us more and more tidbits on pre-KL-sack Aerys throughout all books cumulating in a better understanding of his nature. I think sometimes this forum and the people involved have sucha good understanding of the novels(and much like a very athletic defense over-pursuing the ball) but they understand things Martin wouldn't expect people to so properly understand, and because of the collaboration of the board in addition to how much time there is between books people see red herrings in places average readers don't even see signifigant importance to begin with. I think Aerys displayed very consistent behavior since the start of the rebellion, and don't think the potential setting of wildfire to KL is outside of his character. That is the ONLY reason I previously brought up the glass candles because keeping the OP in mind I think the only scenario where a dream affected this decision of aerys would be if it were sent by someone else with other intentions; Not that he would have a dream on his own that'd be so exactly on par with his current and recent thought process(enough to the point where he probably did dream of these type of things in a non-prophetic sense) at the very end of the rebellion and then act on it

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I agree that the castration connection isn't as strong, but there is an overlap there. Though with Egg it was only threatened.

In correction of my previous post, apparently it was Aerion's son who was passed over in the succession, not him. Aerion was only exiled. He actually died in 232, while the Great Council was in 233. Still, I could see Spiteflame, or possibly his son, throwing in with the Blackfyres. The fact that he and Bittersteel both served with the Second Sons might be a clue in that direction too. Though I must admit I haven't researched this at all. Just throwing it out there.

Which goes back to the possibility that fake Aegon is both a Blackfyre AND a descendant of Aerion.

Getting back to the dragon dreams. Am I incorrect in noticing that the people seen as dragons in dreams, your Baelors and Aegons, tend to be outstanding people or the "best" in the family? This could include Rhaegar too, if that theory is correct. So seeing someone as a dragon could have a somewhat higher meaning than that person "just" being a Targaryen.

[Light a wight tonight]

you don't care where there dreams come from? because I think that's a pretty huge factor in all of their dreams; and its a huge difference between if they naturally have these visions or if there being given to them from people like quaithe. coincidentally there was a thread recently discussing the possibility of quaithe being present in danys first dream (that brought her back from near suicide and on the road to hatching what we all believe will be 3 of the best weapons in destroying mans greatest enemy, the others) that was pretty convincing.

Be very wary of using "we all believe" around here. No few board members think that Dany's Amazing Dragons will be a major anticlimax. Martin sets up situations where expectations are crushed fairly often. Like the Dragons coming down with West Rhoyne Virus and perishing.

[J. Stargaryen]

Which goes back to the possibility that fake Aegon is both a Blackfyre AND a descendant of Aerion.

Getting back to the dragon dreams. Am I incorrect in noticing that the people seen as dragons in dreams, your Baelors and Aegons, tend to be outstanding people or the "best" in the family? This could include Rhaegar too, if that theory is correct. So seeing someone as a dragon could have a somewhat higher meaning than that person "just" being a Targaryen.

That's a good point, and reminds me of something I was thinking about a while back. If you look at the Targaryens who have Dragon as part of an alias, they're all pretty outstanding:

• Aegon I, the Dragon (or Conqueror)
• Daeron I, the Young Dragon (the Targaryen version of Robb Stark, the Young Wolf)
• Prince Aemon, the Dragonknight
• Rhaegar, the Last Dragon

The only exception to the above list would be Aegon III, the Dragonbane. But that's not calling him a dragon, so I think it's fair to exclude him.

You don't really ever see this with the lesser or crazy members of the House. Aerys isn't called the Mad Dragon, for example. I think it adds weight to the notion of being "a dragon" whatever that means. One of Aerion's alias's is The Prince Who Thought He Was a Dragon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That's a good point, and reminds me of something I was thinking about a while back. If you look at the Targaryens who have Dragon as part of an alias, they're all pretty outstanding:

• Aegon I, the Dragon (or Conqueror)
• Daeron I, the Young Dragon (the Targaryen version of Robb Stark, the Young Wolf)
• Prince Aemon, the Dragonknight
• Rhaegar, the Last Dragon

The only exception to the above list would be Aegon III, the Dragonbane. But that's not calling him a dragon, so I think it's fair to exclude him.

You don't really ever see this with the lesser or crazy members of the House. Aerys isn't called the Mad Dragon, for example. I think it adds weight to the notion of being "a dragon" whatever that means. One of Aerion's alias's is The Prince Who Thought He Was a Dragon.

Awesome catch on Aerion. Can be read literally or figuratively! Viserys also "thought" he was a dragon; when Jorah sneered at that, the obvious connotation was that Viserys was an unworthy individual.

Aegon III is a trickier case because he's called Dragonbane and yet seems to have actually been a good king, just perhaps not "exemplary."

[oursisthefury69]

"We all believe" - are you implying there's a single person that wouldn't agree that the 3 huge fire breathing magical beasts highlighted in the books wouldn't be a potential weapon against the undead cold-bringing magical beasts highlighted ion the books that've proven to be best handled by either fire or fire-forged weapons(valyrian steel/obsidian)? I think its a rather safe assumption and if that manages to offend someone then idk where to even begin. R'hllor Bless