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Tolquius

Tyrion's parentage

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First of all, I was... startled to see how Septa Lemore warmed up to Tyrion after he revealed his identity, rubbing his body in vinegar and embracing him when he woke up. Griff dived into the Rhoyne as well, and we don't see any hint of the same treatment.



After A Storm of Swords, I think Tyrion's "quest" is to find redemption. He needs to forgive himself for all his past mistakes, and that is one of the reasons he's fixed in the idea of finding Tysha. So, I believe that he will find someone important from his past... Although it can be other person.



Lemore is too old to be Tysha. So, I imagined "what if Lemore is Tyrion's mother?". What if Joanna didn't die when she gave birth to Tyrion? What if she was exiled?



Well, I began to think why she would be exiled. Tywin being Tywin, it would be possible that he exiled her for giving him a dwarf child. With some coins and help from Kevan, he could do the tale of her dying, all the while sending her to Essos.



Garth's quest to find "Lannister heirloom" could be him trying to find Joanna, for some reason - probably because he: 1. despised the game of power (Genna's words); 2. liked Tyrion, since Tyrion has some fond memories of him. And well, he did invite Tyrion to go with him...



Lemore has the right age. She gave birth. Story wise, she is an important character for Tyrion, and since he wanted to have sex with her, that would also give him and Oedipus complex: he killed his father and wanted to bed his mother. Oedipus is one of the most interesting characters to develop and follow, and I would like to Tyrion's reaction in becoming one.



... But.



There is another explanation for Tywin's plot, and one that is even more interesting. We discover that Mad King Aerys wanted Joanna. And well, Tyrion has pale hair, which could have been inherited by his Targaryen parentage. Tywin discovers the treason, but cannot get himself to kill Joanna. Instead, he banishes her.



And now it gets even more interesting, story wise. If Jon is not Ned's son, and Tyrion is not Tywin's son, this traces a parallel between Ned and Tywin. Tywin despised the bastard Tyrion, but cannot kill him because he still loved Joanna and could not kill her son. Instead, he can treat Tyrion badly, and the fact that Tyrion can actually do the jobs given to him is a salt to the wound. But it also tells that Tywin is not the monster that he looks like, and actually loved Joanna.



And it also gives much more flavor to the first dialogue between Jon and Tyrion.



So, Tyrion can find his redemption discovering his mother (Lemore), and the fact that he is not a kinslayer. It would be ironic if he discovered that after, I don't know, killing Cersei and then becoming a kinslayer cursed by the gods. Poor Tyrion.



But well, it's just a theory. I would find it interesting.


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Too far fetched. There's no evidence that Joanna wasn't his mother... Sure, the mad king was attracted to Joanna but that doesn't mean he raped her. Plus, Cersei and Jaime were 9 when she died so they were older making it very hard to just banish someone.


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Plus, he has blonde hair like Cersei and Jaime, i dont think its ever mentioned to be pale hair.


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he does have blonde hair like Cersei and Jaime, but it's a pale blond, as described by Jon in the first book. each of Tyrion's eyes is a different color - one green, one black. Rhaegar's eyes were so dark violet they could pass for black.


really - who the hell knows. but i don't think it's a stretch to imagine that Tyrion could be half-Targaryen.



on that note - first post!


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First of all, I was... startled to see how Septa Lemore warmed up to Tyrion after he revealed his identity, rubbing his body in vinegar and embracing him when he woke up. Griff dived into the Rhoyne as well, and we don't see any hint of the same treatment.

After A Storm of Swords, I think Tyrion's "quest" is to find redemption. He needs to forgive himself for all his past mistakes, and that is one of the reasons he's fixed in the idea of finding Tysha. So, I believe that he will find someone important from his past... Although it can be other person.

Lemore is too old to be Tysha. So, I imagined "what if Lemore is Tyrion's mother?". What if Joanna didn't die when she gave birth to Tyrion? What if she was exiled?

Well, I began to think why she would be exiled. Tywin being Tywin, it would be possible that he exiled her for giving him a dwarf child. With some coins and help from Kevan, he could do the tale of her dying, all the while sending her to Essos.

Garth's quest to find "Lannister heirloom" could be him trying to find Joanna, for some reason - probably because he: 1. despised the game of power (Genna's words); 2. liked Tyrion, since Tyrion has some fond memories of him. And well, he did invite Tyrion to go with him...

Lemore has the right age. She gave birth. Story wise, she is an important character for Tyrion, and since he wanted to have sex with her, that would also give him and Oedipus complex: he killed his father and wanted to bed his mother. Oedipus is one of the most interesting characters to develop and follow, and I would like to Tyrion's reaction in becoming one.

... But.

There is another explanation for Tywin's plot, and one that is even more interesting. We discover that Mad King Aerys wanted Joanna. And well, Tyrion has pale hair, which could have been inherited by his Targaryen parentage. Tywin discovers the treason, but cannot get himself to kill Joanna. Instead, he banishes her.

And now it gets even more interesting, story wise. If Jon is not Ned's son, and Tyrion is not Tywin's son, this traces a parallel between Ned and Tywin. Tywin despised the bastard Tyrion, but cannot kill him because he still loved Joanna and could not kill her son. Instead, he can treat Tyrion badly, and the fact that Tyrion can actually do the jobs given to him is a salt to the wound. But it also tells that Tywin is not the monster that he looks like, and actually loved Joanna.

And it also gives much more flavor to the first dialogue between Jon and Tyrion.

So, Tyrion can find his redemption discovering his mother (Lemore), and the fact that he is not a kinslayer. It would be ironic if he discovered that after, I don't know, killing Cersei and then becoming a kinslayer cursed by the gods. Poor Tyrion.

But well, it's just a theory. I would find it interesting.

Eh, no.

Since Cersei and Jaime are in their mid-30s, Lemore, if she were Johanna, would have to be much older - unless she gave birth to them when she was 10 years old or younger. Not to mention that she doesn't look like Johanna - who is supposed to be very similar to Cersei in looks. Tyrion would definitely notice if she looked like his sister.

Secondly, I don't buy the "Aerys was Tyrion's dad" theory, and I don't see what purpose it would have. It would only greatly cheapen Tyrion's story. Tyrion is Tywin's son, as Genna pointed out: he has more with him in common than Jaime, for sure. GRRM is not going to let off Tyrion lightly and give him "oh great, you're not a kinslayer!" get out of jail card. And he definitely isn't going to validate Tywin's prejudice that Tyrion, a dwarf, can't be his son. Which, I suspect, not even Tywin ever really believed in; he just couldn't deal with the fact that he had fathered a "monster".

I don't think that a bunch of characters are going to be "secret Targs", which would cheapen the reveal about Jon's parentage. But if some of Johanna's children were to be revealed to be Aerys', it would make so much more narrative and other sense for it to be the golden twins. For starters, there are lots of similarities between Joffrey and Aerys, and Cersei is becoming more and more like Aerys (and those parallels have been made in text). It would also explain Aerys' bizarre behavior regarding Jaime, and would bring a lot of narrative irony, which GRRM loves (it would mean that Jaime killed his father, like Tyrion; that the only man other than Jaime that Cersei was ever in love with was also her brother; and that Tywin's only biological child was the dwarf he despised and didn't want to acknowledge as his).

And I disagree with your premise: there is nothing deep or significant in the 'relationship' between Tyrion and Lemore. He's attracted to every good-looking woman, especially when he sees her naked. And everyone in Essos who knew something about the politics of Westeros was interested in Tyrion, because of who he is, Tyrion of the house of Lannister. That's all there is to it.

I do think Lemore is a mysterious character who is going to have an interesting role in the future proceedings, but I don't think it's going to have anything to do with Tyrion. She's in Westeros now with Aegon and JonCon, Tyrion is in Essos with the Second Sons. Tyrion had lots of interaction with Aegon and JonCon, too - that doesn't mean his story is tied to theirs.

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completely agree that if Tyrion were revealed to be of Targaryen lineage, it would cheapen the R+L = J theory / reveal / whatever. i would be so disappointed if this actually happened.



one thing i've learned from reading these books is that looks and character are factored in deeply through genetics - e.g. the "Baratheon" children (and bastards), Ned & Catelyn's children in contrast to Jon, the Targaryens, the Lannisters, etc... but perhaps GRRM gave Tyrion odd looks to further separate him from his Lannister-perfect brother and sister, to give him an ugly appearance for the sake of character development, etc... maybe some are reading too much into this.



time will tell.


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I agree that there is no evidence that Joanna was not Tyrion's mother or that she was banished. I remember reading somewhere that it is thought that Tywin may be impotent. If that is the case could be the theories of A+J = T and A+J = JC are correct. That would really turn everything on its head if all the Lannister siblings were the Mad King's bastards.


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This is as Crackpot if a theory as I've ever heard. No way would Tywin banish Joanna and raise a bastard dwarf that sullies his family's honor. This theory is so nonsensical, I would stop reading the moment that was confirmed.

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Way too far fetched. First, there's no proof Lemore didn't care for JonCon like she did for Tyrion, second if it were possible for her to be his mother she wouldn't be prancing around naked in his vicinity.


Now, Joanna Lannister is described as having blonde hair with green eyes, Lemore has neither of these traits. Jaime has a vision of a woman that could be none other than his mother, which also rules out Lemore.


As for Tyrion being the mad king's son it doesn't fit, if anything Tyrion is the only true son of Tywin


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Tywin was years old when Cersei and Jaime were born, and Joanna apparently was a little bit older (but not significantly). In 300 AC, Jaime and Cersei have turned 34, which means that Joanna would be at least 58 years old by now, and Lemore is nowhere near that age.



Also, it seems to be the case that Joanna spend her time at Casterly Rock, and not King's Landing with Tywin, which could explain why Tywin was already 24 when his first children were born. They simply did not (could not) spend much time together, because Tywin did not want to keep Joanna around in KL, where he would have to see Aerys lusting after her.



Lemore's story most certainly still has to be told, but I don't believe for a second that she is Joanna.


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" Despite the warmth of the musty skins that covered him, a shiver went through the little man. I need a cup of wine. A dozen cups of wine. But the moon would blink before that whoreson Griff let him quench his thirst. Instead he drank water, and was condemned to sleepless night and days of sweats and shakes. The dwarf sat up, cradling his head in his hands. Did I dream? All memory of it had fled. The nights had never been kind to Tyrion Lannister. He slept badly even on soft feather beds..." ADWD Tyrion



" I would kill for a cup of wine, muttered Tyrion. Girff made no reply. You will die before you drink, his pale eyes seemed to say. Tyrion had drunk himself blind his first night on the Shy Maid. The next day we awoke with dragons fighting in his skull. Griff took one look at him retching over the side of the poleboat, and said, You are done with drink. Wine helps me sleep, Tyrion protested. Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said." ADWD Tyrion



Just re-read this chapter in ADWD. A+J=T is almost 99.98 % confirmed. Oh and he needs to join A.W.D.D.A ( alcoholic's with dragon dreams anonymous) founding member Daeron the Drunken brother of Aemon and Egg.


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ADWD Dany Chapter pg 672



barristan selmy:


"Prince Aerys... as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the... the liberties your father took during the bedding."



so there i was under the "liberties" = he had sex with joanna. because this would have been the first bedding it would seem that A+J =JC is possible, and not tyrion unless they had sex again (if she fell pregnant). which would mean tywin has no legitimate heirs. and that joffrey, myrcella and tommen are all targs too?



i am still confused ugh.


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also, in the first or second books and even in the TV series, tywin openly admits that tyrion is a lannister, and is why he raised him as his child, and not just kill him at birth.


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also, in the first or second books and even in the TV series, tywin openly admits that tyrion is a lannister, and is why he raised him as his child, and not just kill him at birth.

Well, Joanna was a Lannister before she married Tywin. A Lannister of Lannisport.

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Hi guys, first time post here!



I just came across this theory so I went back to A World Of Ice and Fire and it appears that Joanna came to Kings Landing in 272 AC at the time of great Anniversary Tourney. The Mad King made remarks about her breast asking her if giving sucks to Jamie and Cersi has ruined your breasts which were so high and proud. In 273 AC Lady Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion. Therefore, timelines wise, it does not appear to be far fetched if Mad King planted his seeds in Joanna in 272 and Tyrion was concieved!


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I don't think it makes sense. Since Tywin obviously really disliked Tyrion, why would would continue to keep him around if he's not really his son? Also, now that Tywin's own family has gained control of the Iron Throne, if he knows that Tyrion is a Targaryen he would view him as a threat to Joffrey/Tommen/Cersei's legitimacy. Tywin doesn't seem like someone to put up with such a threat.


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Hi guys, first time post here!

I just came across this theory so I went back to A World Of Ice and Fire and it appears that Joanna came to Kings Landing in 272 AC at the time of great Anniversary Tourney. The Mad King made remarks about her breast asking her if giving sucks to Jamie and Cersi has ruined your breasts which were so high and proud. In 273 AC Lady Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion. Therefore, timelines wise, it does not appear to be far fetched if Mad King planted his seeds in Joanna in 272 and Tyrion was concieved!

Welcome to the boards! :cheers:

Well, it could be - and couldn't be at the same time.

The theory of "A+J=T" has its pros and cons like other theories.

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