The Ash, The Chestnut and the Oak: Jon's 3 lives?

[Jô Maltese]

I was re-re-reading (!) a Jon's chapter in aDwD when he goes to Mole's Town and on his way Jon notices three trees that have been carved in with human faces by the wildlings. Of course (that's the whole point of my third reading after all), I wondered if there wasn't any typical GRMM hidden meaning behind this Ash, Chestnut and Oak (their order of appearance). It's something I have not seen being discussed here (I missed it if it has) and would welcome any further analysis from the Forum's specialists.

Here are the quotes:

1. The drunkard was an ash tree, twisted sideways by centuries of wind. (...) A solemn mouth, a broken branch for a nose, two eyes carved deep into the trunk, gazing north up the kingsroad, toward the castle and the wall.

(...). "Looks a bit like you, Edd,"

(...)

2. A mile farther on, they came upon a second face, carved into a chestnut tree that grew beside an icy stream, where its eyes could watch the old plank bridge that spanned its flow. (...)​The chestnut was leafless and skeletal, but its bare brown limbs were not empty. On a low branch overhanging the stream a raven sat hunched, its feathers ruffled up against the cold. When it spied Jon it spread its wings and gave a scream. When he raised his fist and whistled, the big black bird came flapping down, crying "Corn, corn, corn."

(...)

3. Just north of Mole's Town they came upon the third watcher, carved into the huge oak that marked the village perimeter, its deep eyes fixed upon the kingsroad. That is not a friendly face, Jon Snow reflected. (...) but the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them. Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it.

Initially, without real inner thought, but just from my visualisation of the scenes, Tyrion, Stannis and Victarion came to my mind (twisted and half-nose for T, skeletal and bold for S, angry, huge and wounded for V). Upon reflection, Stark (solemn and gazing north) also came to mind for the Ash and Jon (future wounds and anger) for the Oak. (I will later discard Tyrion and Victarion but I give you these initial thoughts for further counter-discussion).

A quick research gave me this

Ash: Tree of Humankind and Ancestors. Symbolic of the "Bridge" connecting the Spiritual and Physical realm. The Mother.

Chestnut: Tree of Honesty. Symbolic of longevity. Beauty. Connection to the underworld.

Oak: Tree of Strength & Longevity. Symbolic of Truth and ancient wisdom and of the marriage between the god and the goddess. King of Trees. Tree of Thunder.

So here is my theory:

1. The Ash symbolises Jon's duty as a Stark (his mother) and the NW LC (looking like Edd = looking like a NW member + sounds like 'Ned'), that is to keep looking north as his ancestors have made for centuries, to keep protecting Humankind from Evil. But Jon and / or the whole NW is / are twisted : his sense of duty is fading.

EDIT (input from Fire Eater): An ash tree, Yggdrasil, in Norse mythology held a dragon in its roots, with one root feeding it that stood over Niflheim, the primordial world of ice and cold.

2. The Chesnut is Stannis, the Honest and Enduring king, but also involved with Dark powers and in a way already dead (leafless, skeletal, the raven). He is the King that responded Jon's call but in doing so he abandoned his own values (when Jon raised his fist, the raven came, leaving the Honest and Enduring tree behind) but his help has a price (corn). Stannis is showing the bridge over the icy stream, i.e. a way of escaping his duty as LC to fulfil his other duties / desires / or his alternate destiny.

Possible further development: "Corn for the free folk, (...) none for you". He wondered if they would all be reduced to eating ravens before the coming winter had run its course. Jon will favour supporting the wildlings to supporting Stannnis and may end up fighting and destroying him?

EDIT (purrl1, Schmendrick but mostly Hot Pie Swag) - Amended analysis: The Chesnut represents Jon visiting the underworld after his assassination at the Wall. He is a Ghost (in Ghost?), a sacrificed divinity like the Corn King.

EDIT2 (Fire Eater and Frey family reunion): A squirrel communicated between the dragon and a bird perched in the branches. During Ragnorak, the dragon would be freed. A dragon will wake with Bran (who was called a "squirrel" by Ned) working with BR, who is both a raven (his mother's sigil are ravens surrounding a weir wood - Melissa Blackwood) and a dragon (his father is Aegon IV Targaryen).

3. The Oak symbolises Jon as the awakened Dragon (Targ) having crossed the bridge shown by Stannis. Wounded in the process (the stabbing) but also having re-opened old wounds (revenge for his 'old' family) or new ones (revenge for his discovered new family) he takes the King's road at last, furious and mighty (Jon the berserk).

EDIT (Fire Eater) - The heart tree of the Red Keep, the royal capital for centuries, is an oak tree. A dragon waking is always described in terms of anger.

[ARYa_Nym]

In Arya threads we've talked about oak before. She called herself an oak tree in ASoS and it's a tree of Artemis.

A poster noted that oak and iron were signs of protection.

Her bechamber was the only place that Arya liked in King's landing, and the thing she liked best about it was the door, a massive slab of dark oak with black iron bands. When she slammed that door...nobody could get into her room, not Septa Mordane or Fat Tom or Sansa or Jory or the Hound, nobody! She slammed it now. When the bar was down, Arya finally felt safe enough to cry."

Brienne

She meant to keep the heavy oaken shield Jaime had given her, the one he’d borne himself from Harrenhal to King’s Landing. A pine shield had its advantages. It was lighter, and therefore easier to bear, and the soft wood was more like to trap a foeman’s axe or sword. But oak gave more protection, if you were strong enough to bear its weight.

Dunk

Oak and iron guard me well, or else I'm doomed and going to hell"

The wolfswood has oak too.

"...a forest of oak and evergreen and black bier that seemed older and darker than any Tyrion had ever seen. The wolfswood, Benjen Stark called it, and indeed their nights came alive with howls of distant packs, and some not so distant."

& I mentioned how Herne the Hunter hunts during winter and is associated with oak trees.

[Brynden Bloodraven Rivers]

About Dunk, Chestnut was his horse and the tourney of THK was in Ashford.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

We've talked about ash in relation to Jon Snow before, starting here and continuing here and here. Basically we discussed connections between ash, Rhaegar and Jon (and King Arthur, too) that are textual, symbolic and linguistic.

We found ash to be symbolic of the will to destiny, and uncovering a hidden identity and closely tied to legends of King Arthur, whom both Rhaegar and Jon parallel (see here if you're interested) Linguistically ash is closely connected to all Tagaryen names, as it is linked with the dipthong 'ae'. Finally, the connection of ash to the Tristifer monument, where Robb and Catelyn discuss Jon Snow is very strong.

The first part of your analysis dovetails nicely with that discussion. I see some interesting linking of Arya to oak above, and while I understand your Stannis conclusion, I'd be very interested to see if there could be a Sansa connection with chestnut, as that is my gut feeling when reading this:

Chestnut: Tree of Honesty. Symbolic of longevity. (Beauty). Connection to the underworld

[The guy from the Vale]

We've talked about ash in relation to Jon Snow before, starting here and continuing here and here. Basically we discussed connections between ash, Rhaegar and Jon (and King Arthur, too) that are textual, symbolic and linguistic.

We found ash to be symbolic of the will to destiny, and uncovering a hidden identity and closely tied to legends of King Arthur, whom both Rhaegar and Jon parallel (see here if you're interested) Linguistically ash is closely connected to all Tagaryen names, as it is linked with the dipthong 'ae'. Finally, the connection of ash to the Tristifer monument, where Robb and Catelyn discuss Jon Snow is very strong.

The first part of your analysis dovetails nicely with that discussion. I see some interesting linking of Arya to oak above, and while I understand your Stannis conclusion, I'd be very interested to see if there could be a Sansa connection with chestnut, as that is my gut feeling when reading this:

Chestnut: Tree of Honesty. Symbolic of longevity. (Beauty). Connection to the underworld

Sansa's hair is auburn. The German translation would be "kastanienbraun", i.e. chestnut brown.

I get a different vibe from these, connected to the Faith of the Seven. In particular, I think they might correspond to the three female aspects of the divine: Ash for the Mother, Chestnut for the Maiden, and Oak for the Crone.

[purrl1]

Please correct me if I misremember. It's been a long time since I've read up on comparative mythologies.

In Norse myth, the Tree that connected the worlds of men, gods, and giants was an Ash tree (Yggdrasil--spelling?). Odin/Wotan was hanged on it and returned to life. So there's that sacrificed god, who's also a god of battle, death, and magic and the father/king of the gods. He's associated with wolves and ravens, that scavenge the battlefields.

IIRC, the valkyrie that take the dying warriors to Valhalla ride wolves. And Odin has a pair of ravens named Hugin and Munin (Wisdom and Memory?) that bring him messages.

Ash is also the preferred wood for making spears and staves, and was sometimes used for wands for druids or wizards.

The raven calling "corn, corn," together with the R+L=J hypothesis, makes me think of the Corn King (Joseph Campbell, The Hero With a Thousand Faces? or perhaps Sir George Frazer, The Golden Bough?). The Corn King is a sacrificed fertility figure, either a god or sacred king. This prefigures possibly that Jon does die at the end of ADWD, but returns to life and brings restoration to the land somehow. Ravens are also forms of the battle goddesses of the Celts, like Mhorrighu, Eriu, & Babd (yes, my spelling is very bad). These are not only goddesses of battle frenzy, but of fertility and of sacral kingship, as they symbolize the kingdom.

The oak is associated with lightning, and storm gods like Thor. To the Greeks, it was sacred to Zeus, king of the gods and the one who presided over--wait for it--sacred hospitality. Oak's remarkable strength and its use as a shield have been noted by other posters above.

In-universe, the Storm Lord is the enemy of the Drowned God. I've suspected that if the Drowned God "exists", he's Not Nice. And certainly, none of the kings, neither Stannis nor any other, has any love now for the Ironborn. Plenty of signs of continuing conflict, with the odds against the Ironborn based on the omens.

I'm guessing Jon's not going to be too happy when he revives, and there's going to be some serious pwning occurring before Our Hero saves the kingdoms (whether they like it or not).

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Sansa's hair is auburn. The German translation would be "kastanienbraun", i.e. chestnut brown.

I get a different vibe from these, connected to the Faith of the Seven. In particular, I think they might correspond to the three female aspects of the divine: Ash for the Mother, Chestnut for the Maiden, and Oak for the Crone.

I actually thought about the hair color after posting. Sansa certainly fits with the maiden interpretation, and you could definitely make a case for Arya/Crone if you consider the death aspect (although in the Faith that aspect seems to be covered by the Stranger, in threefold goddess traditions the Crone presides over death)

Not so sure about Jon/Mother, lol. Unless we refer to Lyanna? :dunno:

[Winnief]

Of course while posing as Alayne, Sansa's auburn hair has been dyed chestnut brown.

Also in Christian imagery the Chestnut is a symbol of chastity because the chestnut is surrounded by thorns but is not harmed by them.

Sort of like Sansa being surrounded by various creepers and other threats yet still maintaining her maidenhead-and more importantly her life.

Also worth noting that Oaks are pagan symbols but also represent endurance in the face of adversity which would certainly hold true for Arya.

[brashcandy]

I actually thought about the hair color after posting. Sansa certainly fits with the maiden interpretation, and you could definitely make a case for Arya/Crone if you consider the death aspect (although in the Faith that aspect seems to be covered by the Stranger, in threefold goddess traditions the Crone presides over death)

Not so sure about Jon/Mother, lol. Unless we refer to Lyanna? :dunno:

It's interesting to muse on :) We had a brief discussion of the Ash tree with regard to Sandor in the PTP.

[Jô Maltese]

It's interesting to muse on :) We had a brief discussion of the Ash tree with regard to Sandor in the PTP.

Thanks for this link. Awesome analysis by Tze, as usual.

[Aetta]

We've talked about ash in relation to Jon Snow before, starting here and continuing here and here. Basically we discussed connections between ash, Rhaegar and Jon (and King Arthur, too) that are textual, symbolic and linguistic.

We found ash to be symbolic of the will to destiny, and uncovering a hidden identity and closely tied to legends of King Arthur, whom both Rhaegar and Jon parallel (see here if you're interested) Linguistically ash is closely connected to all Tagaryen names, as it is linked with the dipthong 'ae'. Finally, the connection of ash to the Tristifer monument, where Robb and Catelyn discuss Jon Snow is very strong.

The first part of your analysis dovetails nicely with that discussion. I see some interesting linking of Arya to oak above, and while I understand your Stannis conclusion, I'd be very interested to see if there could be a Sansa connection with chestnut, as that is my gut feeling when reading this:

Chestnut: Tree of Honesty. Symbolic of longevity. (Beauty). Connection to the underworld

Yes, this.

Add a dash of Yggdrasil and a splash of Celtic mythology, and there are so many ways you could go with it.

[Thrice Drowned Veteran]

Does anyone know the canon of the house Royce runes? I thought of this similar theory when viewing the arms of house Royce on weateros.org. In not too spun up on my runes but I know enough that it something along the lines of "man riding horse need oak ash and yew". however i always believed those were fab made encryptions.

However, I also have to agree that the Yggdrasil and Odin parallels to bloodraven are striking enough to realize that the old gods are as important as the dragons.

Likewise I assumed Tyrion, Stannis, and victarion. I wasn't e quite sure why until you explained it for me. Perhaps the yellow of corn lol.

But why those three? Is it because they will be their house's representative on a tree underneath the wall such as bloodraven is or the targaryens? Now that would be a plot twist I never expected.

[ConmaicneMara]

Ash and Oak are very important trees in Celtic mythology. Not sure about Chesnut.

[Jô Maltese]

Does anyone know the canon of the house Royce runes? I thought of this similar theory when viewing the arms of house Royce on weateros.org. In not too spun up on my runes but I know enough that it something along the lines of "man riding horse need oak ash and yew". however i always believed those were fab made encryptions.

However, I also have to agree that the Yggdrasil and Odin parallels to bloodraven are striking enough to realize that the old gods are as important as the dragons.

Likewise I assumed Tyrion, Stannis, and victarion. I wasn't e quite sure why until you explained it for me. Perhaps the yellow of corn lol.

But why those three? Is it because they will be their house's representative on a tree underneath the wall such as bloodraven is or the targaryens? Now that would be a plot twist I never expected.

In the OP I explain I actually changed my mind for Jon-Stannis-Jon. But I am relieved in a way that your first impression was the same as mine.

[Schmendrick]

The raven calling "corn, corn," together with the R+L=J hypothesis, makes me think of the Corn King (Joseph Campbell, The Hero With a Thousand Faces? or perhaps Sir George Frazer, The Golden Bough?). The Corn King is a sacrificed fertility figure, either a god or sacred king. This prefigures possibly that Jon does die at the end of ADWD, but returns to life and brings restoration to the land somehow.

Interestingly, George makes a direct reference to the "Corn King" in ADwD (Jon, XII):

He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont’s raven muttered across the room. “Corn,” the bird said , and, “King,” and, “Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow.” That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

The OP made me think of the concept of the Holly King and the Oak King, as described by Robert Graves in The White Goddess (a book about poetry and mythology). The Holly King (who is also associated with evergreen trees) and the Oak King (obviously associated with the oak tree) are locked in an endless struggle, representing the changing of the seasons. The Holly King is strongest in the winter and weakest in the summer and the Oak king is the reverse.

[Winnief]

The OP made me think of the concept of the Holly King and the Oak King, as described by Robert Graves in The White Goddess (a book about poetry and mythology). The Holly King (who is also associated with evergreen trees) and the Oak King (obviously associated with the oak tree) are locked in an endless struggle, representing the changing of the seasons. The Holly King is strongest in the winter and weakest in the summer and the Oak king is the reverse.

Ooooohhhh...good catch. Also since chestnut trees drop their chestnuts in the Fall, they are considered a symbol of harvest, abundance, and preparation.

Celtic druids made staffs and handles out of chestnut tree branches as they believed this way to energetically draw out longevity and invigoration.

And many indigenous peoples in the Americas associated Chestnut trees with fertility.

[Hot Pie Swag]

Looks pretty good, but I'd think the chestnut is Jon as well(after being stabbed). It's connected to the underworld and described as skeletal, but not completely empty. This seems to describe Jon in death-warg mode. Especially since the raven is on it(warged raven most likely)

[Jô Maltese]

Looks pretty good, but I'd think the chestnut is Jon as well(after being stabbed). It's connected to the underworld and described as skeletal, but not completely empty. This seems to describe Jon in death-warg mode. Especially since the raven is on it(warged raven most likely)

Of course! I think you are spot on, this would make much more sense: Jon Snow - Jon Ghost - Jon Dragon.

[Jô Maltese]

Please correct me if I misremember. It's been a long time since I've read up on comparative mythologies.

In Norse myth, the Tree that connected the worlds of men, gods, and giants was an Ash tree (Yggdrasil--spelling?). Odin/Wotan was hanged on it and returned to life. So there's that sacrificed god, who's also a god of battle, death, and magic and the father/king of the gods. He's associated with wolves and ravens, that scavenge the battlefields. IIRC, the valkyrie that take the dying warriors to Valhalla ride wolves. And Odin has a pair of ravens named Hugin and Munin (Wisdom and Memory?) that bring him messages.

Ash is also the preferred wood for making spears and staves, and was sometimes used for wands for druids or wizards.

The raven calling "corn, corn," together with the R+L=J hypothesis, makes me think of the Corn King (Joseph Campbell, The Hero With a Thousand Faces? or perhaps Sir George Frazer, The Golden Bough?). The Corn King is a sacrificed fertility figure, either a god or sacred king. This prefigures possibly that Jon does die at the end of ADWD, but returns to life and brings restoration to the land somehow. Ravens are also forms of the battle goddesses of the Celts, like Mhorrighu, Eriu, & Babd (yes, my spelling is very bad). These are not only goddesses of battle frenzy, but of fertility and of sacral kingship, as they symbolize the kingdom.

The oak is associated with lightning, and storm gods like Thor. To the Greeks, it was sacred to Zeus, king of the gods and the one who presided over--wait for it--sacred hospitality. Oak's remarkable strength and its use as a shield have been noted by other posters above.

In-universe, the Storm Lord is the enemy of the Drowned God. I've suspected that if the Drowned God "exists", he's Not Nice. And certainly, none of the kings, neither Stannis nor any other, has any love now for the Ironborn. Plenty of signs of continuing conflict, with the odds against the Ironborn based on the omens.

I'm guessing Jon's not going to be too happy when he revives, and there's going to be some serious pwning occurring before Our Hero saves the kingdoms (whether they like it or not).

Plenty of food for thought in your post! In particular the reference to the corn king, I wasn't aware of that.

Interestingly, George makes a direct reference to the "Corn King" in ADwD (Jon, XII):

The OP made me think of the concept of the Holly King and the Oak King, as described by Robert Graves in The White Goddess (a book about poetry and mythology). The Holly King (who is also associated with evergreen trees) and the Oak King (obviously associated with the oak tree) are locked in an endless struggle, representing the changing of the seasons. The Holly King is strongest in the winter and weakest in the summer and the Oak king is the reverse.

Ooooohhhh...good catch. (...)

:agree:

[Ghost's Shadow]

Nice catch, OP!