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Who would Brandon have crowned as QoLaB?


Ygrain

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Absolutely. Which acts as a piece of evidence for Brandon being the "Stark." But not as proof of Barristan knowing Ashara's motivation.

I never claimed the latter :-)

It is not impossible that Ashara had been badly depressed over the death of her child (if dead) as well as Brandon and the news of Arthur's death was just the last straw but I think that Barristan misses some important piece of information, as do we.

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Seconded, Barristan makes it clear the man she "turned to" was dead when Ned brought back Dawn to Starfall. Hence it cannot be Ned who "dishonored her" at Harrenhal.

Nonsense. This is not clear.

Barristan states "dishonoured" which in medieval context means deflowered. He states a Stark stole Ashara's heart - not which Stark.

People grieve for all sorts of reasons, such as Ashara being pregnant, but losing the young man she she loved to another woman (and her love killing her brother - both tragedies being due to the war).

This is the bit that troubles me, there doesn't seem to be any logic to your connection. You have simply reasoned that

d) Therefore Brandon MUST be in some way romantically attatched to Ashara (False - firstly, as demonstrated above, we don't know he would have therefore we can't use this speculation as proof of romantic involvement, and secondly there does not need to necessarily be a romantic connection between the QoLaB and the champion).

Overall there are too many logical fallacies for this to be considered proof of anything. Maybe Brandon was romantically attatched - Barristans comment about looking to Stark could hint at Brandon or Ned - and I'm sure we may find out at some point, but this really is clutching at straws for evidence.

I agree. There is no evidence Brandon was interested in her, or her in him. There multiple points of evidence that Ned was interested in her, one of which is Brandon pushing his shy brother to actually go dance with her.

And for all the people speaking about Barristan's observation, they omit Edric Dayne's and Hawrin's account, in the Arya POV. It makes it very clear it was Eddard and Ashara, not Brandon and Ashara.

So, as it relates to this thread, the speculation Brandon would name Ashara makes no sense.

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True, if Barristan is to be believed.

Barristan believes that Ashara's suicide was over the stillborn baby and/or grief over the man man who dishonored her at Harrenhal. We do not know those are true.

For instance, if it was Brandon, why would Ashara wait more than 12 months after Brandon died to grieve him through suicide? That makes no sense. Ashara would have learned about Brandon's death earlier, not from Ned. To me, this shows Barristan does not really know why Ashara committed suicide.

Having sadly known several people who have committed suicide, I think a combinationbof factors lead up to Ashara's suicide. If, as i now do, you believe Brandon was the father of her child, then thats the first straw. Second, you have the rebellion itself; war is a very depressing thing! Next you have the death of Elia and her children, who Ashara had served for several years; likely she would have grown close to them in that time. And then the death of her brother Arthur Dayne too. A combination of factors which explains the time gap between Brandons death and her suicide
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I agree. There is no evidence Brandon was interested in her, or her in him. There multiple points of evidence that Ned was interested in her, one of which is Brandon pushing his shy brother to actually go dance with her.

"lastly with the quiet wolf... but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench."

There is zero support to claim that it was Brandon's own agenda to ask Ashara dance with Ned. It is equally possible that he asked Brandon to speak to her, or that someone else (e.g. Lyanna) did.

And I am most curious to hear how from too shy to even adress her Ned became bold enough to have sex with Ashara, and why he didn't do the right thing and marry her ASAP when she got pregnant - he was not promised to anyone at that time, after all. Furthermore, I am waiting for an explanation why he never, ever, in a slightest hint, thinks about his dishonourable conduct towards Ashara, and why Barristan holds him in such deep esteem despite being the guy who basically destroyed Ashara's reputation and life.

And for all the people speaking about Barristan's observation, they omit Edric Dayne's and Hawrin's account, in the Arya POV. It makes it very clear it was Eddard and Ashara, not Brandon and Ashara.

You mean this account?

Harwin: "Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It’s an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now.” He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. “I doubt there’s any truth to it."

Or the account of Ned Dayne who wasn't even born yet and who claims in one breath that Ned Stark was in love with Ashara but fatehred a child on a family servant?

The only thing which is made very clear is the existence of gossip about Ashara and Ned, not that there is any truth to it.

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Nonsense. This is not clear.

Barristan states "dishonoured" which in medieval context means deflowered. He states a Stark stole Ashara's heart - not which Stark.

People grieve for all sorts of reasons, such as Ashara being pregnant, but losing the young man she she loved to another woman (and her love killing her brother - both tragedies being due to the war).

Well everyone is entitled to their own opinion :) you might think it's not clear, but to me, the fact Barristan says she might have jumped out of grief for the man who dishonored her means that man was dead when Ashara committed suicide.

That we know at least. Hence I don't think the man who dishonored her is Ned. But of course you're entitled to your own opinion, but it doesnt make what other people think "nonsense" ;-) !!

As for medieval law, I am writing a phD in legal history so I have that aspect covered, no problem. And actually, if I may, if you look in the records of the courts of England or even France at the time, "dishonored" doesn't always mean "deflowered". It was not rare for girls and ladies to have had sexual relationships before their wedding, as it is illustrated in the books as well, horse riding was a widespread leisure at the time and often served as an excuse for deflowered ladies to cover their mischieves. As long as their affairs weren't public knwoledge they weren't considered as "dishonored". Hence in Ashara's case, it can either mean she was deflowered at Harrenhal or (more likely imo) that the affair she had there went public and the biggest proof of a "dishonoring" was that the lady was left with a child in her belly.

But anyway, it is indeed just speculation atm. But it is wrong to say Ashara being "dishonored" at Harrenhal necessarily means she has been "deflowered" there.

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Just putting some dates down to help or spark debate.



Birth of Brandon Stark :262 or 261 depending on where in the Wiki you look


Birth of Catelyn Tully : 265 or 264 again depending on where you look


Birth of Petyr Baelish: 268 or 267 as above.



So Brandon Died in 282 and the tourney happens in 281 which puts Brandon at age 20/21 at his death. That ties in with the age Cat gives when she recalls the duel. But she puts LF at 15 and that ties in with their duel being in 282 and His(LF's) birth 267 and Brandons 262. So lets go with those as the correct dates seen as its supported in the text.



So the tourney happens in 281 and the duel the following year 282, after which Brandon rieds to KL and is killed. Cat has been promised to Brandon at age 12 so the year 276/8 making Brandon 14 or 15 there is no reason to believe that the betrothal wouldn't have been made public as there would be no reason to hide it and after all Jamie was being groomed for betrothal to Lysa and why would Tywin settle for the younger daughter for his at the time heir, if Cat was still perceived as available? The intended betrothal between them was when Jamie was 15 just after he is knighted in 281. He was raised to the Kings guard at the Tourney just a moons turn later. So Lysa and Jaime were both 15 when Hoster & Tywin decided to betroth them, Was Hoster pissed off enough to spurn the Tourney over the breaking of the betrothal? There seems no other cause for their absence as has been said by others too. I mean its on their doorstep why wouldn't they go? I think it must have been Hoster's wrath at the spanner in the works for his plans for Lysa.



In 282 when Brandon fights Petyr Lysa takes advantage of a wounded drunk and probably off his face on milk of the Poppy Peytr and gets pregnant. Hoster has her abort that child and wed Jon Arryn. the wedding must have only taken place a matter of a few weeks after her abortion (Poor Lysa)



It would seem to add weight to the idea that the betrothal between Brandon & Cat was public knowledge as all the sources I can find ( don't actually have my books as I've loaned them out so if I'm wrong please point it out.) It would seem that the duel between the two boys was directly prior to a wedding rather than a betrothal anouncement, which makes sense given the ages of Brandon & Cat.



So I think that at the Tourney everyone knew Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn Tully. Ashara became pregnant in 281 and died in 283, maybe the wedding date was set because Brandon had got Ashara pregnant and Hoster keen to secure at least one daughters future pushed for the wedding to happen, though their ages seem entirely normal for a wedding after a 5 yr betrothal. But Hoster may well have still been smarting after the Lannister alliance fell through and keen to see Cat wedded before Brandon had a chance to back out and wed the Dayne girl instead.



I think Brandon would have caused a shit storm had he won and crowned Ashara, but he strikes me as a man who wouldn't be too concerned with such things and would have done as he pleased. The decent thing to do in Cats absence would be to crown his little sister or the Whent maid.



But I doubt we can count on Brandon to do the decent thing.


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snip

Good post, I agree with you, Brandon didn't strike me as the man who would refrain from doing something even though it could cause havoc.

And you are entirely right, the bethrothal had been made public at least a few years before Harrenhal, as Barbrey Dustin says Brandon and her discussed his bethrothal with Catelyn Tully (and Brandon told her he """didn't want to marry Catelyn but had been forced into the bethrothal"""). So I assume it was public knowledge at Harrenhal indeed.

And indeed, when Brandon met Catelyn in Riverrun, it was right before the intended wedding it seems, as Brandon first left Riverrun to meet his father and the wedding party coming from the North. On his way to Rickard, he heard the news about Lyanna's abduction and he abandonned Cat right before the wedding (my main source here being the official app).

I assumed the reason why they had waited to wed Brandon and Catelyn was so Cat would leave the "maidenhood" and reached the age of 16 at least. According to the different sources we have, she was indeed 17-18 at the time Brandon visited Riverrun, which is a good age to get married, although "later" than the legal majority age in Westeros which is 16. But anyway, it could have been for many reasons.

Whatever happened in Harrenhal, Cat doesn't seem to be aware of it as when she recalls Ashara, she automatically thinks she is possibly Ned's lover and Jon Snow's mother. So if something happened between Brandon and Ashara and Hoster was made aware of it, he kept the information to himself. But indeed it could have lead to a quicker wedding than originally planned, even though the age at which Brandon and Cat were supposed to get married seems more than acceptable.

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It does indeed seem a very normal age for their wedding and I really don't see Ned humiliating Cat any further after bringing Jon back by ever mentioning that Brandon screwed other women during their betrothal, so he likely just kept the business with Ashara to himself and likely never mentioned Babrey either. I mean its bad enough she thinks Ned dishonoured her but it would really be a slap in the face to find out Brandon did too. Another reason to shut down the rumours regarding Ashara and himself as no doubt a few men at Winterfell knew the truth, perhaps Harwin does after all Brandon was a keen horseman, and Harwin is the son of the Master of horse, maybe he and Brandon chatted whilst he saddled up his mount? Harwin saying "I don't think so." could hint that he knows it was definitely NOT Ned because he knows exactly what went on at that tourney.



Off to check Harwins age now.


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I think its clear that if Cat had been there she would not have threatened so much over Ashara being rumoured as Jon Snows mother, she feels threatened by the thought that Ashara was his mother, if she had sen Ned & her interacting at the Tourney then she likely would laughed at the rumour as its made clear Ned was far too shy to actually approach Ashara.

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Just had a thought, which there is no evidence for, but sounds good to me. It is another wild possibility as to why the Tully's were not at Harrenhal.



Perhaps it had recently come to light that Brandon had had a bastard child. Is that a reason in the etiquette practices of Westeros, to shun a groom for a bit after a indiscretion?



Just making up ideas in my head.


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Has it been said that the Tulley's weren't there? If Cat was there then...... DUH. If she wasn't then it would have been awarded in the best way to get laid that evening.

Cat mentions not seeing Ned until their wedding day, and it seems unlikely that Brandon wouldn't introduce his family to his betrothed and her family if they were in the same place.

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Just had a thought, which there is no evidence for, but sounds good to me. It is another wild possibility as to why the Tully's were not at Harrenhal.

Perhaps it had recently come to light that Brandon had had a bastard child. Is that a reason in the etiquette practices of Westeros, to shun a groom for a bit after a indiscretion?

Just making up ideas in my head.

Do we have any account of Brandon having a bastard though? And, would it have been heard from the North? It is true that Lyanna learned about Mya, but as Ned must have arrived with some entourage from the Vale, her source of information would have been obvious (and the same goes for Harrenhal). I don't think that a young lordling fathering a bastard would be such world.breaking news to make it from the North to the Riverlands purely on its own.

This line of thought has me think, though: what about Brandon's affair with Barbrey? That might have pissed Hoster pretty much, had he learned, though he probably wouldn't have told Cat and that's why we don't hear any of it in her PoVs.

Cat mentions not seeing Ned until their wedding day, and it seems unlikely that Brandon wouldn't introduce his family to his betrothed and her family if they were in the same place.

Even if he made such a faux pas, I guess the Starks would have been kinda hard to overlook :-)

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Do we have any account of Brandon having a bastard though? And, would it have been heard from the North?

No, just this:

In A Dance with Dragons, we learn more about Brandon Stark and his interest in women, similar to Robert's. Did Brandon have any bastards as well?

It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children. It's established in the books that he was no virgin. He could very well have left behind some little Snows in the various places he visited. But what's absolutely clear is that he had no legitimate children.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

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This line of thought has me think, though: what about Brandon's affair with Barbrey? That might have pissed Hoster pretty much, had he learned, though he probably wouldn't have told Cat and that's why we don't hear any of it in her PoVs.

Yes! Better theories through tangents!

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Yes! Better theories through tangents!

The question is: would Hoster miss the tourney for that? IIRC, Lannisters refused the match with Lysa, so he needed to find her someone else, and the tourney would have been an opportunity to meet some other prospective husbands as well as give Brandon a Talk.

I think it must have been something else, and I wonder what it was. Given how GRRM mentioned that the happenings at HH would have made for another book, I don't think that Hoster's absence was an oversight. Actually, if it was really so complicated, I think that his notes about the event are almost novel-length :-)

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