Let’s Change the Conversation: Remapping Dany

[Audrey Arryn]

But the people will stay there right? Slaver's bay people have no reason to move to Westeros. She must roll-on economic changes. She has to stay there and see through the changes. If you start of revolution then you have duty to see it through properly. Unless she sets up proper economy in Slaver's bay, she has failed as a ruler. I think she needs to stay in Essos for five years, to undo the damage she has done to the economy.

I dont know if they will go to westeros with her but they for sure wont be staying in slaver's bay IMO.

[El Guapo]

OP

Danys arc is about ruling. Its meant to be contrasted to Cerseis arc. GRRM keeps saying how he was interested in ruling and contrasted this to Lord of the Rings which doesn't talk about it. I am pretty sure he also said something like that we "see the ways that women rule in these books".

You pull the idea that Dany is a bad administrator out of thin air. Dany feeds a city of half a million people, organizes public works, raises a new militia, trains free companies, raises taxes and provides relief. Those aren't the real problem. The issues she faces are security and military. She cannot deal with them because she is sick of war and not willing to get her hands dirty. It is this moral conflict that prevents her from taking on her enemies and allows them to take advantage of her. That is not the same thing as being an incompetent administrator. Dany does get sick of ruling Meereen but thats because she is torn between her desire for peace and not wanting to become a monster and her feeling of being humiliated and weak. "Why am I here dining with men I'd rather flay? Why does this taste of defeat?". ADWD is about Dany resolving this issue and embracing Fire and Blood. It is not to stress that Jon is a better character.

Well said and I completely agree.

[Veltigar]

Regarding her ruling capabilities:

Please take in mind that her arc isn't complete yet. I agree that she hasn't done a good job, but that doesn't mean that she can't change for the better (her last PoV in ADWD sets up the stage for that change).

We should all appreciate the sense of scale more imo. GRRM handels that really well. For example: Ned's death... Why was that so shocking? Because people like Ned die all the time at the start of fantasy novels. It's one of the biggest trademarks of the genre. But GRRM was able to surprize us because he gave Ned a lot more screentime than those characters normally get.

Now, how does that reflect on Dany as a ruler? Well, another fantasy trademark is that the young hero achieves power over a Kingdom (after finding the magic sword/want/unicorn/etc. and gathering a band of friends) and then doesn't know what to do with it. All of a sudden the hero sucks and is unable to do anything right. But then, lo and behold there is always something that kicks the hero in the face and make him rise up again.

In a normal fantasy that phase wherein the hero isn't succesful anymore lasts like three pages and the wrong decisions he makes never really affect us because the setting and supporting characters who'll be suffering for it aren't properly set up.

But in ASOIAF GRRM spends a lot more time on these sequences where lesser authors just brush over. He takes the time to set things up, to show the faces of those who suffer and what exactly is going wrong. But that doesn't mean that Dany won't have the same reveal moment like the hero usually has where he/she understands his/her flaws (e.g. Dany avoiding her past. In her last chapter we saw that she was preparing to finally take action to rectify that big flaw) and undertake action to mend said flaw.

[Audrey Arryn]

Yes, because she is going to lead them all, Moses style, into the land of milk and honey. I doubt it.

I also doubt she is going to leave her freedmen to be made slaves again in slaver's bay. She already knows what happened the last time she did that in Astapor. What you are suggesting is exactly the same thing she did in Astapor so why would she do it again?

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

I dont know if they will go to westeros with her but they for sure wont be staying in slaver's bay IMO.

Well that is their home, why should they abandon it? Where will the influx of these people go then? Where-ever they go, they will disrupt the economy of that place. Considering there are so many people. Before starting a revolution she must have thought out what she was doing. She took out the major component of Slaver's Bay economy, a major component cannot replaced easily, that's why i believe she needs to see through the changes.

[Florina Laufeyson]

The people loyal to Dany will likely move with her. The fire trail so to speak. I do suspect that a number of people will remain in Slaver's Bay, but those deeply inspired by Dany will move on.

[butterbumps!]

OP

Danys arc is about ruling. Its meant to be contrasted to Cerseis arc. GRRM keeps saying how he was interested in ruling and contrasted this to Lord of the Rings which doesn't talk about it. I am pretty sure he also said something like that we "see the ways that women rule in these books".

You pull the idea that Dany is a bad administrator out of thin air. Dany feeds a city of half a million people, organizes public works, raises a new militia, trains free companies, raises taxes and provides relief. Those aren't the real problem. The issues she faces are security and military. She cannot deal with them because she is sick of war and not willing to get her hands dirty. It is this moral conflict that prevents her from taking on her enemies and allows them to take advantage of her. That is not the same thing as being an incompetent administrator. Dany does get sick of ruling Meereen but thats because she is torn between her desire for peace and not wanting to become a monster and her feeling of being humiliated and weak. "Why am I here dining with men I'd rather flay? Why does this taste of defeat?". ADWD is about Dany resolving this issue and embracing Fire and Blood. It is not to stress that Jon is a better character.

I do not want to get sidetracked by the same ubiquitous discussion about her suitability to rule.

Please see this post to explain why I am taking this as a premise.

[GoldenFleece]

Regarding her ruling capabilities:

Please take in mind that her arc isn't complete yet. I agree that she hasn't done a good job, but that doesn't mean that she can't change for the better (her last PoV in ADWD sets up the stage for that change).

We should all appreciate the sense of scale more imo. GRRM handels that really well. For example: Ned's death... Why was that so shocking? Because people like Ned die all the time at the start of fantasy novels. It's one of the biggest trademarks of the genre. But GRRM was able to surprize us because he gave Ned a lot more screentime than those characters normally get.

Now, how does that reflect on Dany as a ruler? Well, another fantasy trademark is that the young hero achieves power over a Kingdom (after finding the magic sword/want/unicorn/etc. and gathering a band of friends) and then doesn't know what to do with it. All of a sudden the hero sucks and is unable to do anything right. But then, lo and behold there is always something that kicks the hero in the face and make him rise up again.

In a normal fantasy that phase wherein the hero isn't succesful anymore lasts like three pages and the wrong decisions he makes never really affect us because the setting and supporting characters who'll be suffering for it aren't properly set up.

But in ASOIAF GRRM spends a lot more time on these sequences where lesser authors just brush over. He takes the time to set things up, to show the faces of those who suffer and what exactly is going wrong. But that doesn't mean that Dany won't have the same reveal moment like the hero usually has where he/she understands his/her flaws (e.g. Dany avoiding her past. In her last chapter we saw that she was preparing to finally take action to rectify that big flaw) and undertake action to mend said flaw.

Well out of all the characters in ASOIAF, Daenerys arc follows the archetype "Hero's Journey" more than any other character.

[Audrey Arryn]

Well that is their home, why should they abandon it? Where will the influx of these people go then? Where-ever they go, they will disrupt the economy of that place. Considering there are so many people. Before starting a revolution she must have thought out what she was doing. She took out the major component of Slaver's Bay economy, a major component cannot replaced easily, that's why i believe she needs to see through the changes.

I understand where you are coming from but thats what she did in Astapor and it didnt end well. So I doubt she will leave them there. Also slaver's bay is not the slave's home, GRRM said all the slave are from different parts of the world and were made slaves.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Do note where Dany is currently positioned. The Dothraki Sea. A vast plain with much dry grass. Her fire has already burned within the culture of the Dothraki, but i see it possible for it to be reignited. She has Drogon now, and while not full grown, he is large enough. Its fair enough to assume that Dany will regain her title of Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea in a sense if she can beat Jhaqo. (which is probably gonna happen.)

Well out of all the characters in ASOIAF, Daenerys arc follows the archetype "Hero's Journey" more than any other character.

I feel Jon follows it more closely. But thats another thread.

[OldGimletEye]

I also doubt she is going to leave her freedmen to be made slaves again in slaver's bay. She already knows what happened the last time she did that in Astapor. What you are suggesting is exactly the same thing she did in Astapor so why would she do it again?

Is she going to appoint Drogon as her quartermaster and then he is going make all this happen through his sheer logistical brilliance? I think on another thread we talked about, at some length, the difficult, and most likely impossible, logistics of pulling this off.

There is a difference between wanting to do something and having the ability to do it.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

I understand where you are coming from but thats what she did in Astapor and it didnt end well. So I doubt she will leave them there. Also slaver's bay is not the slave's home, GRRM said all the slave are from different parts of the world and were made slaves.

I am not talking specifically about the Slaver's, but generally about people living it Slaver's bay. I believe they won't abandon their home and even if they abandon they won't be welcomed anywhere. Considering there will be a large influx of people, so anyone free-cities/Kingdoms try to take them will have massive integration costs, not to mention Westeros economy is in shambles, due to WO5K, what will happen to those people then?

[Tyrion1991]

I do not want to get sidetracked by the same ubiquitous discussion about her suitability to rule.

Please see this post to explain why I am taking this as a premise.

Thats you repeating that you don't feel the need to prove that she cannot administrate.

It shouldn't be taken as a premise at all. Especially since the premise only exists to make her appear like a less well rounded character than Jon Snow who is both a leader and an administrator capable of ruling; the safe middle ground between two dangerous extremes.

[Audrey Arryn]

I am not talking specifically about the Slaver's, but generally about people living it Slaver's bay. I believe they won't abandon their home and even if they abandon they won't be welcomed anywhere. Considering there will be a large influx of people, so anyone free-cities/Kingdoms try to take them will have massive integration costs, not to mention Westeros economy is in shambles, due to WO5K, what will happen to those people then?

Thats why I think she is not going to westeros now, probably in ADOS there is still alot of loose knots.

[Veltigar]

Well that is their home, why should they abandon it? Where will the influx of these people go then? Where-ever they go, they will disrupt the economy of that place. Considering there are so many people. Before starting a revolution she must have thought out what she was doing. She took out the major component of Slaver's Bay economy, a major component cannot replaced easily, that's why i believe she needs to see through the changes.

For some it's their home. But how many were actually born and raised there? Who knows how many of the slaves were brought there after being captured by Dothraki or Lyseni pirates or etc.

I think Dany will leave the cities of slaversbay behind in ruins. the only thing that would make her pause if she hasn't got enough means of transporting them. But if there are enough ships, she'll take them with her and burn Meereen and Yunkai to the ground.

Astapor and Yunkai have no way of surviving without slavery. They need it to survive. At least Meereen had it's agriculture, but the Slavers destroyed their most valuable crop (olive trees) and it takes a very long time for those to grow back. Leaving those cities untouched means the return of slavery. They are just no economically viable without it. There is nothing Dany could do to make Yunkai and Olive tree free Meereen able to sustain itself.

And as to her freedmen disrupting economies. Westeros has many scarcely populated pieces of prime land, abandoned by people because of the war. Cracklaw point, the New Gift and the Riverlands come to mind. Hell, the entire North could use more people. And the killing is about to majorly hit the Reach, the Stormlands and the Crownlands as well. The slaves could be hosted easily before tWot5K, but after it they'll be begging for them to come live in their respective Kingdoms.

[butterbumps!]

Thats you repeating that you don't feel the need to prove that she cannot administrate.

It shouldn't be taken as a premise at all. Especially since the premise only exists to make her appear like a less well rounded character than Jon Snow who is both a leader and an administrator capable of ruling; the safe middle ground between two dangerous extremes.

No, seriously, it's not.

It's that that subject is the debate in every single Dany thread that nearly ever existed and the purpose of THIS thread is not to stumble over that overdone exercise.

If you want a thorough and complete reference for why I came to that determination, here's the Learning to Lead reread project that investigates her leadership in detail. 1 2 3 4 5

I didn't call Dany a dangerous extreme here. She's an extreme compared to Jon, but that doesn't make her inherently worse or less compelling. I find both extremely necessary. Jon's the middle ground between change and stagnation, but I repeatedly pointed out that those abilities are almost meaningless when you don't hold enough power to create a condition from which to reform. Which Dany can. Without Dany or the things Dany's good at, Jon's middle road is rather unsuccessful.

I hasten to add that the 3 foils of preserving status quo, reforming, and interrupting the status quo, are not inherently better than the others, but that their virtue is a fluid thing, depending on timing and context. Chaos brought to a good, stable society is a bad thing, reform to brought to a good, stable society a pointless thing. There's a place for all of them, and none is more "right" than another.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well out of all the characters in ASOIAF, Daenerys arc follows the archetype "Hero's Journey" more than any other character.

Actually I'd argue that if anyone follow's the monomyth, it's Jon.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Wow. Bumps went to the trouble of crafting such a nice OP and....

ugh.

Anyway, heres my piece on the subject.

I think bumps is absolutely right. Dany represents upheaval and change. She is like a force of nature moving from one place to the next. She is Fire. Destruction and heat, but also cleansing and allowing for rebirth. Despite her best efforts (yes she does try) to "plant" and "sow", she finds herself incapable of truly doing so. She is the fire that is ignited in the hearts of men to change, but she is not the thing that builds upon that change.

Dragons plant no trees.

Dragons are fire made flesh. Dragons raze and scour. They also fly and live according to their own will. Dany in Slaver's Bay is the dragon razing the land, her flight from there on Drogon represents the feeling to move on. Is her work truly done there? Yes, i think it is. Shes ignited the want and need for change, but she cannot augment or control it any further. Meereen itself also does not wish for her to do so. They want change, Hizdahr remarks on this, but it is change from within they truly desire. They dont wish to begin "anew" as much as repurpose custom and adapt. This is why they push for Hizdahr to be their King. The Sons of the Harpy represent the discord and bucking against this change.

Drawing from Jon, we see that he is capable of building and "crystallizing" ideas, however, he lacks the fire to cleanse. The Nights Watch needs this fire, for it is destroying itself from within. Not like a flame, but like a cancer. Jon has the strength of a flame to burn bright, but lacks the destructive and cleansing aspects of that flame. Dany is like a pyre, Jon like a campfire. Jon can administer, he can think outside the box, he can delegate. But can he light the fire that burns in the hearts of men? He can have men gather around his warmth, but he is lacking the inspiration to burn bright. He is also ice. Preserving. He tries to hold onto honor and duty. He believes in the core idea of the Night's Watch, but he knows theres this rotting decay within it. His assassination proves that he is not the flame that can burn bright enough to inspire change. Someone has poured water on the campfire. But the ideas Jon has are still in place. He has united the wildlings in an odd way. He has compromised with Stannis (the burning Stag), he has tried to blaze, just as Dany has attempted to preserve.

This. I'd still dare say that the best leader in the series would be a combination between Stannis, Daenerys and Jon. They all have and lack unique characteristics not shared by themselves. I'm not sure if Aegon is that, as he sounds to be more like a status-quo... Anyway, I'm planning a big post on this thread, as I couldn't agree more with butterbumps and his brilliant proposal to a new analysis on the Silver Queen.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Aegon feels like he is just a chunk of ice to fill the gap. However, i think the boy has enough fire to burn bright enough to light the fire under the arses of a lot of Westerosi. They are likely going to rally behind him thinking he is the change they desire. However, he is a cyvasse piece of someone else's. Ultimately, he will be burned by the real change. Or put out. The Others are coming and Dany will eventually come as well. A new Dance will likely happen and the land itself will be divided on what they want. The fire they thought was best to cleanse? Or the fire that will cleanse? But theres the missing piece here. The foundation, the crystallization. I think Jon is this piece.

On Stannis, despite his flaming stag sigil, i feel he is ice. Hes all about preserving and he will not bend. He will either melt or break. He does represent a strong sense of order however. The extreme side of it. I agree with those saying that Stannis is an extreme and Dany is an extreme and Jon is the middle ground. (if those three could be the Three Heads, shit would be interesting. Doubt itll happen though.)

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

For some it's their home. But how many were actually born and raised there? Who knows how many of the slaves were brought there after being captured by Dothraki or Lyseni pirates or etc.

Yes for some, we don't know if they make up majority or not. But i'll like to think Slaver's bay most people are indigenous. Well for all we know they could've captured the slaver's who have escaped from slavers bay and brought them back there. :dunno:

I think Dany will leave the cities of slaversbay behind in ruins. the only thing that would make her pause if she hasn't got enough means of transporting them. But if there are enough ships, she'll take them with her and burn Meereen and Yunkai to the ground.

But where? She cannot take them to free-cities, it will disrupt their economies, due to the massive integration costs they'll have to face. Yeah i know she will get the fleets from Volanteen and IronBorn. Then you have the problem of Dothraki, where will they live, what about the Khalasar.

Astapor and Yunkai have no way of surviving without slavery. They need it to survive. At least Meereen had it's agriculture, but the Slavers destroyed their most valuable crop (olive trees) and it takes a very long time for those to grow back. Leaving those cities untouched means the return of slavery. They are just no economically viable without it. There is nothing Dany could do to make Yunkai and Olive tree free Meereen able to sustain itself.

Hence i suggested, that she needs to stay there, look for viable options, see through major changes and then come back to Westeros. She can wait to conquer Westeros and then get Iron Bank on her side. They will play the role of EU bank, send aid packages to slavers bay and try to stipulate the dead economy.

And as to her freedmen disrupting economies. Westeros has many scarcely populated pieces of prime land, abandoned by people because of the war. Cracklaw point, the New Gift and the Riverlands come to mind. Hell, the entire North could use more people. And the killing is about to majorly hit the Reach, the Stormlands and the Crownlands as well. The slaves could be hosted easily before tWot5K, but after it they'll be begging for them to come live in their respective Kingdoms.

Westeros is only scarcely populated in the North, i think all other seven Kingdoms are properly populated. Why should they come begging? Westeros is running out of money, when the winter hits, food will become gold, it is better to have less people and not to mention having foreigners in your land is by no means going to solve the problem. I believe the freedmen have a chance to migrate to Westeros after winter has passed. When westeros will be in building phase, then they have proper chance of slipping in the economy.