Darkbringer Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 There wont be much to cleanse. With Jon's assassination, there wont be more than a hundred people left to serve after the madness dies down. Probably the wildlings will assume the role after they get the Gift, permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I feel I need to just add something in here, my stance on dany is unchanged, I dont "Like" her, nor do I think she should rule westeros. Thats Stannis' job. But I have no beef with dany so long as she doesnt get in his way. In other words, dany doesnt fuck with Stannis, and I dont care. I just happen to agree with the op wrt her being a force of change. For good or bad, and with good people beside her(stannis and jon) she could do some good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Yes for some, we don't know if they make up majority or not. But i'll like to think Slaver's bay most people are indigenous. Well for all we know they could've captured the slaver's who have escaped from slavers bay and brought them back there. :dunno: Of course they make up the majority. Slaversbay is the transit hub for slaves on Planetos. The Dothraki and other catchers bring in the raw products and they are auctioned, trained and then sold on by the Ghiscari. Yunkai, Meereen and Astapor heavily specialise in different types of slaves (Bedslaves, pitfighters and Unsullied). With the possible exception of Meereen, which trains people for its pits and sends the rest of its slaves of to work on farms (although since they have agriculture they probably also sell slaves to places like New Ghis which depends upon farm slaves), none of the Slaver cities produce slaves for their home markets. There are simply to many. But where? She cannot take them to free-cities, it will disrupt their economies, due to the massive integration costs they'll have to face. Yeah i know she will get the fleets from Volanteen and IronBorn. Then you have the problem of Dothraki, where will they live, what about the Khalasar. It will strain the economy of Volantis that's for sure, but that will only be temporary. The final stop for her freedmen isn't Volantis. The Khalesar can be used to secure the hinterlands of Volantis. The Volantinians watch their territory closely, but they are vunerable as Tyrion remarks. And their is plenty of free space for them to set up shop. That is if she doesn't take them with her to Westeros. Hence i suggested, that she needs to stay there, look for viable options, see through major changes and then come back to Westeros. She can wait to conquer Westeros and then get Iron Bank on her side. They will play the role of EU bank, send aid packages to slavers bay and try to stipulate the dead economy. There simply are no viable alternatives for slavery. The slavercities all lack natural resources. There are no precious minerals, Yunkai and Astapor can't even feed themselves, Meereen had one valuable asset (the Olive Trees) but the Slavers burned them themselves (and it takes incredibly long before a new olive tree is suited to make oil from). The best thing to do is pack up shop and leave. Westeros is only scarcely populated in the North, i think all other seven Kingdoms are properly populated. Why should they come begging? Westeros is running out of money, when the winter hits, food will become gold, it is better to have less people and not to mention having foreigners in your land is by no means going to solve the problem. I believe the freedmen have a chance to migrate to Westeros after winter has passed. When westeros will be in building phase, then they have proper chance of slipping in the economy. Cracklaw Point is virtually abandoned. Think back to Brienne's journey in AFFC and remember how many ruins she passed while she and Nimble Dick were on their way to the Whispers. That land is all still good, but people for some reason never came back (I imagine war, sickness and a massive inflow to KL might have been the cause of that). By the time ASOIAF started the Riverlands hadn't even fully recovered from RR yet. Remember in ASOS or AFFC when they come across the ruins of a village of Lord Goodbrook destroyed by Hoster in the early stages of the uprising. After 15 years that hadn't been rebuilt yet and that was all before Tywin and Robb butted heads against each other. There is lot's and lot's of good farmland for those people to settle on. Most of the Freedmen will probably go anyway. As stated before many will refuse to leave her sight and she'll need all the manpower she can muster to get the IT. Many of them will die in the Dance 2.0. and the battle against the Others. But many will live and they'll be needed to rebuild Oldtown and KL, to repopulate the North, The Riverlands, the Crownlands and whatever other lands might be heavily destroyed in upcoming fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Different Roads Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I object to some of the thread's basic assumptions-- 1. What atrocities, exactly, did Dany commit? 2. Leaders need to be surrounded by talented people. The Constitution wasn't written by one dude, for example. Who does Dany have in her court? Strong Belwas, Selmy, GW, a couple of dudes with weird names?. 3. Westeros is not SB. Just because she failed in one place, doesn't mean she will fail in another 4. It is always harder to rule as an occupying force. Just think of Iraq. 5. In her own words, children grow and children learn. Expect her leadership to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I object to some of the thread's basic assumptions-- 1. What atrocities, exactly, did Dany commit? go read the books, but to name a few Crucifying 163 people. burning a woman alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Different Roads Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Slavers you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrich Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 go read the books, but to name a few Crucifying 163 people. burning a woman alive. And killing every man with a whip in the Astapor plaza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 I object to some of the thread's basic assumptions-- 1. What atrocities, exactly, did Dany commit? 2. Leaders need to be surrounded by talented people. The Constitution wasn't written by one dude, for example. Who does Dany have in her court? Strong Belwas, Selmy, GW, a couple of dudes with weird names?. 3. Westeros is not SB. Just because she failed in one place, doesn't mean she will fail in another 4. It is always harder to rule as an occupying force. Just think of Iraq. 5. In her own words, children grow and children learn. Expect her leadership to improve. go read the books, but to name a few Crucifying 163 people. burning a woman alive. Slavers you mean? And killing every man with a whip in the Astapor plaza. Everyone: there's no shortage of threads in which to dissect her abilities as a ruler, run in circles about the 163 or whatever else. This thread is specifically about putting those question aside to look at the broader picture. Please do not derail discussion here by debating those issues. It's off topic, here, but further discussion and examination can be found in the LtL reread threads I linked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l3ol3o Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 If Dany wants to get back to Westeros she is going to have to leave lots of people behind. She is going to have trouble moving her soldiers, dragons, horses, and supplies across the narrow sea. She won't be able to take thousands of useless mouths (freedmen). I've said this before and I'll say it again. There is nothing more terrifiying then an army moving with women and children. An army of men alone is scary but they are there for war. An army of men plus women and children are there to stay and will unite the people of Westeros very quickly. No one wants a bunch of poor foreigners moving into their lands. She either stays in Mereen and spending the rest of her life rebuilding or she leaves the place in ruins and goes to Westeros where she is a catalyst for change yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the andorran Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Not to mention, can Westeros even support an influx of thousands of people at the moment? Sure, there is unsettled land, but a war was fought in a major agricultural area, and winter is here. It seems Dany's people would come to Westeros and starve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Beyond the Wall Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 First of....thank you! Fantastic essay. From the rigid interpretations I've seen on this forum, I am happy to see a post like this that looks beyond her as a fictional person. Dany has always been my favorite character. Take her personality or storyline out of it, I t's genius writing............So aside from that, the only disagreement I have is on your comparison with Stannis and Jon. Jon, you've nailed. Stannis however.....I disagree that he is upholding current order as top priority. I believe he is very obviously a rigid person who requires order to function. But is her preserving the current system in Westeros? I would say no. I feel like this is why he fails to inspire people to his cause. He has subscribed to an unpopular religon, and is forcing it on his followers, evening starting his reign out by burning the Seven. He feels his claim is based on current hierarchy, but because of his adaption of the Red God I don't think we can say that his top priority is preservation of the system. He seems more to take from it what benefits him........... I was rereading your OP in a quote and this part caught my attention......(I brought this up before, recently in the current “Dany is insane” thread, but I thought if it might be time to open a thread about it directly.) .............Order, in and of itself, is not inherently good. The status quo of Westeros has been breaking down because the order itself is fundamentally flawed. Though it’s devolving into chaos, it’s not the chaos that’s the issue; it’s the fact that the order itself was so flawed that it’s rotting under its own weight. This principle is marvelously illustrated by the smaller-scale examples of the Watch and Slaver’s Bay; the order behind both of these systems is so flawed and unsustainable that it threatens to destroy their very existence............I just wanted to add that I don't think the order or system of government of Westeros was fundamentally flawed. I believe it was the corruption and greediness of Its major lords and ladies that lead to its devolving chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I was rereading your OP in a quote and this part caught my attention......I just wanted to add that I don't think the order or system of government of Westeros was fundamentally flawed. I believe it was the corruption and greediness of Its major lords and ladies that lead to its devolving chaos.I think it's still flawed if major lords and ladies can bring corruption. No political system is perfect but based on what has happened in westeros, something has to be changed. If the story even ends with an extremely good ruler on the throne, when he dies the same thing can happen again in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I think it's still flawed if major lords and ladies can bring corruption. No political system is perfect but based on what has happened in westeros, something has to be changed. If the story even ends with an extremely good ruler on the throne, when he dies the same thing can happen again in the future. And its for this reason, I trust institutions more than I trust in the hope that people will be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 And its for this reason, I trust institutions more than I trust in the hope that people will be good. Thats why I would be happy for the series to end with a new form of government (With a group rather than one ruler), if anyone sits the IT the same thing could (would) happen again in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Thats why I would be happy for the series to end with a new form of government (With a group rather than one ruler), if anyone sits the IT the same thing could (would) happen again in the future. I think westeros is too far away from a new form of government, alot has to happen before that. For now, we have to settle for a good king or queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 And killing every man with a whip in the Astapor plaza. Her employment of the SP and his tortorous methods. The wineselling family is NOT the only time SP tortures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Thats why I would be happy for the series to end with a new form of government (With a group rather than one ruler), if anyone sits the IT the same thing could (would) happen again in the future. I would too. But, I don't think were going to get a constitutional democracy, which would be ideal. But, perhaps a new ruler might be able to institute a better legal system, design an institution to help eliminate the destructive wars of succession, keep the nobles from warring on each other, perhaps maybe even put a mechanism to peacefully remove crazy kings. Just some thoughts. But, yeah, change is definately needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasta11 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I agree that Dany's in-story role is that of an agent of change, more than of a ruler. The thing is, she doesn't seem to realize this herself. Perhaps ''dragons plant no trees'' is this realization, but I doubt it. And other than that, she doesn't give off the vibe of realising her failures as a ruler, and wanting to either 1) improve or 2) move on to being a leader and finding people who can do the ruling. She still styles herslef as Queen, not as a revolutionary or somesuch even if she does work to take down a reprehensible system. And about being a catalyst, so far she's been a pretty bad one IMO. Let's overlook the atrocities at Astapor and look at the result: a field of ruins, that previously had reintroduced slavery as soon as she was gone. Meereen fares better, but it seems that's more thanks to manipulations by the Shavepate and Barristan keeping the Harpy and its cronies from taking back the city than any inspirational quality Dany could have. Yunkai is still happily slaving away. She shook up slavery a lot, but I'm not certain there's anything in place to replace it, especially once she's gone if she does go. I mean, she's good at shaking things up but that's not that hard when you have dragons and an army of 100% obedient super-soldiers. A catalyst needs rulers to follow up, but currently there are none in Essos (unless somehow Tyrion counts?) and the people in Westero that could both ally with her and serve that purpose are very rare indeed, not to mention she would have to actually realize she needs such a person herself. I get the point of this thread, and it's certainly far more productive than ''I love Dany'' vs ''I hate Dany'' ad nauseum, but I'm not certain the story is heading that way at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I think westeros is too far away from a new form of government, alot has to happen before that. For now, we have to settle for a good king or queen. Your probably right. :frown5: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Your probably right. :frown5: Of course im right. Ask anyone about me, they'll tell you, ero is always right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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