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butterbumps!

Let’s Change the Conversation: Remapping Dany

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Well, we did see the handiwork of one Dany's “revolutions” in Astapor, which resulted in death, slaverly being re-instituted anyways, and even, if I recall correctly, new Unsullied being trained.

Accordingly, I not really convinced that Martin is challenging that bias.

But the point of all of that is to show that it's never going to be the same; it's been fundamentally uprooted if not eradicated. The economy is overturned, other slaves are on the verge of revolt, people are looking at her as a major liberator: the spark made a major ripples, not all of which are pretty or progressive immediately. But one really cannot deny the fact that the slave trade is never going to be the same.

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I agree with !butterbumps Dany's role is for change, even at the very beginning of her story, her character brings about change of old customs and cultures. There are also connection between Dany and "moon" which also represents change, since the moon is always changing and brings changes.

Excellent catch! Drogo does call Dani his "moon and stars." In medieval literature, the moon is a symbol of mutability, even mortality, the cycle of birth and death, an aspect of Fortune's wheel. This is in contrast with the constant and eternal stars (per the medieval cosmology). In pre-Copernican cosmology, all things from the moon's orbit down were mortal and subject to fortune and change, whereas all things above the moon were unchanging and perfect (this included the stars).

I believe this can tie back into OnionAhaiReborn's post regarding the cyclical nature of the history of Westeros (even Planetos as a whole). If I can be forgiven for a television reference, right from the first season I considered the turning wheels in the opening sequence to be a visual symbol of the inexhorable cycle of the seasons that drives the periodic overthrow of all civilization when the Long Night comes again.

We also have Dany wearing pearls for her wedding to Hizdahr the Unpronounceable. Pearls are the jewel associated with the moon, as well as the sea. The ocean's tides are, after all, controlled by the moon. Note too, the colors of her dragons: white for the moon's full, black for its dark, and green for the sea. Much as I hate to say it, I think Dani is destined to get caught up with Vic and his gang, and control them as her agents for chaos as she returns to Westeros. Moon and stars? Moon ruling the tides, and stars being what sailors use to navigate? Coincidence? I think not!

I conclude that this wheel of time (sorry! had to go there) will NOT cease, but continue--change is eternal (moon and stars). So bittersweet, indeed. This has happened before. It will happen again. (And the rest is cylons--er, silence.)

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But the point of all of that is to show that it's never going to be the same; it's been fundamentally uprooted if not eradicated. The economy is overturned, other slaves are on the verge of revolt, people are looking at her as a major liberator: the spark made a major ripples, not all of which are pretty or progressive immediately. But one really cannot deny the fact that the slave trade is never going to be the same.

I think saying the “economy is overturned” is a little bit of a euphism for the reality of the situation, which is really that the economy is destroyed with nothing to replace it for many years. Hence, I think Slaver's Bay will have many years of death and starvation. I just think the whole situation could have been handled better.

I think, in so far as the story goes, yeah, Dany will make an impact on slavery. But, I think her overall legacy with regard to slavery will be very mixed. And I feel there is a little bit of an attempt to whitewash that legacy.

Also, given Dany's spur of the moment decision to be an emancipator, lacking sufficient military forces to really do the job, failing to understand the political and economic situation, failing to understand the time required to see the job done, it was quite likely that the entire project would fail with the old order restored. The fact that she will be able to pull the situation out of her butt, at the last minute, with the timely arrival of a few unexpected naval fleets and fresh armies, doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

Finally, I do realize the point of this entire thread is to discuss Dany's role as an agent of change and not to make judgements about her actions. Yet I feel that a discussion about Dany's literary role can't be so easily divorced from her intentions and methods. Otherwise, I think we ought to start a thread titled, “The Others, Misunderstood Agents For Positive Change And Social Reform?”.

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Stannis' sword is cold because his personal iciness cancels out the sword's heat. Give the same sword to Satin and it's totally flaming.



Also, the Shiva / Vishnu / Brahma thing the Hindus have going on is their version of what you guys are talking about with needing a preserver, a creator, and a destroyer figure to keep history going healthy and strong. Ice preserves, fire destroys, Robert creates (bastards).


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I think saying the “economy is overturned” is a little bit of a euphism for the reality of the situation, which is really that the economy is destroyed with nothing to replace it for many years. Hence, I think Slaver's Bay will have many years of death and starvation. I just think the whole situation could have been handled better.

Call it "interrupted" then, if you're so inclined.

The idea that death, chaos, destruction, and reactionaries result from toppling something like slavery is like saying night follows day.

The situation could have been handled better. Ok, so what?

I think, in so far as the story goes, yeah, Dany will make an impact on slavery. But, I think her overall legacy with regard to slavery will be very mixed. And I feel there is a little bit of an attempt to whitewash that legacy.

I'm calling her legacy to this end as being an agent of change and simultaneously that she's not suited for rule. Which, you do realize, is embedding all the criticism of the management of the aftermath, as well as the effect ruling personally had on Dany, into that conclusion, right?

What I'm not doing is categorically lambasting her for failing to be a ruler. That's not whitewashing; it's turning what might be considered a criticism into constructive analysis, especially given that a fundamental issue I've been trying to address is in checking our biases about treating ruling and administration as the end-all-be-all virtue of leadership.

Also, given Dany's spur of the moment decision to be an emancipator, lacking sufficient military forces to really do the job, failing to understand the political and economic situation, failing to understand the time required to see the job done, it was quite likely that the entire project would fail with the old order restored. The fact that she will be able to pull the situation out of her butt, at the last minute, with the timely arrival of a few unexpected naval fleets and fresh armies, doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

Confidence in terms of what exactly? Why are you-- and not just you, but many others focusing variously on proving she's a great administrator or an appalling one-- so caught up in applying virtue exclusively to ruling and administrating? It's like a character cannot have virtue unless they are good administrators or something.

Finally, I do realize the point of this entire thread is to discuss Dany's role as an agent of change and not to make judgements about her actions, yet I feel that a dicussion about Dany's literary role can't be so easily divorced from her intentions and methods. Otherwise, I think we ought to start a thread titled, “The Others, Misunderstood Agents For Positive Change And Social Reform?”.

The thread you suggest is nonsensical and not a successful jab at when I'm attempting here. Contrary to what you think I omitted, though, frankly, should be blindingly obvious, is that her intentions are embedded in the analysis. You see, unlike the Others, Dany's chaotic upheaval targets the status quo in terms of humanitarian ideal. She's not simply an agent of chaos, but a revolutionary precisely because she's a figurehead who's championed the oppressed out of idealism.

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Stannis' sword is cold because his personal iciness cancels out the sword's heat. Give the same sword to Satin and it's totally flaming.

Also, the Shiva / Vishnu / Brahma thing the Hindus have going on is their version of what you guys are talking about with needing a preserver, a creator, and a destroyer figure to keep history going healthy and strong. Ice preserves, fire destroys, Robert creates (bastards).

Hmmm...I like that, but then that makes the three heads of the dragon Jon, creator, Stannis, preserver, and Dany, destroyer...that would be most interesting. I sort of feel like the new trendy idea of the three heads being 3 facets of the same person is too complicated...we've got 3 dragons, we know dragons can only be ridden by 1 rider, and we've got a prophecy about 3 heads of the dragon...and targaryen sigil...sometimes obvious stuff is just obvious. or not, who knows.

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I think saying the “economy is overturned” is a little bit of a euphism for the reality of the situation, which is really that the economy is destroyed with nothing to replace it for many years. Hence, I think Slaver's Bay will have many years of death and starvation. I just think the whole situation could have been handled better.

I think, in so far as the story goes, yeah, Dany will make an impact on slavery. But, I think her overall legacy with regard to slavery will be very mixed. And I feel there is a little bit of an attempt to whitewash that legacy.

Also, given Dany's spur of the moment decision to be an emancipator, lacking sufficient military forces to really do the job, failing to understand the political and economic situation, failing to understand the time required to see the job done, it was quite likely that the entire project would fail with the old order restored. The fact that she will be able to pull the situation out of her butt, at the last minute, with the timely arrival of a few unexpected naval fleets and fresh armies, doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

Finally, I do realize the point of this entire thread is to discuss Dany's role as an agent of change and not to make judgements about her actions. Yet I feel that a discussion about Dany's literary role can't be so easily divorced from her intentions and methods. Otherwise, I think we ought to start a thread titled, “The Others, Misunderstood Agents For Positive Change And Social Reform?”.

Many years of death and starvation? How do you know that?

All Meereen needs is allies, time and good management. Food can be imported by allies. Buildings can be rebuilt. And GRRM has made clear that Meereen has a well trained workforce that can produce goods - they just need to import the materials - kind of like what India did at the start of the 20th century. By the looks of it, Meereen could have the most powerful navy in Essos - Ironborn + Slave driven Voltene fleet. Yunkai will be crippled for years and may actually be absorbed.

I don't think doom and gloom is a foregone conclusion.

People on this forum say how things could have been handled better, but so few people have given alternatives except slow reform (modern methods in a medieval like world) or just ignore the suffering of millions of people on a continent while being able to change it. Modern reform works very rarely, if at all in a medieval setting. Order is not always a positive, if the order is corrupted.

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Butterbumps!, please forgive my smart assness and sarcasm. Its just who I am. I use it to make points. Please, feel free to return smart ass comments and sacrasm in kind when responding to me. I have a soft spot for smart asses. I don't mean to belittle you because I do respect a lot of things you have written.



At any rate, turning to other matters.








The thread you suggest is nonsensical and not a successful jab at when I'm attempting here. Contrary to what you think I omitted, though, frankly, should be blindingly obvious, is that her intentions are embedded in the analysis. You see, unlike the Others, Dany's chaotic upheaval targets the status quo in terms of humanitarian ideal. She's not simply an agent of chaos, but a revolutionary precisely because she's a figurehead who's championed the oppressed out of idealism.





Yet, you wrote:



“For example, I don’t personally think we ought to be caught up in whether or not freeing slaves was her original goal, or in the particulars of mismanagement and chaos that followed abolition, or arguing whether she ought to have freed slaves at all. Conversely, I think excusing her performance in SB (in terms of the ruling) due to her intentions is also perhaps missing the point.”



Without a catalyst, some things simply won't change, and while we can hate the catalyst itself, I think looking at the fact that there was a catalyst at all is something to appreciate, knowing that without it, however negative it may be, things would have stayed the same. As it pertains to Dany, the fact that she's the only character with enough power to fairly singularly overcome the inertia of social systems is something I've started to see as positive, broadly speaking. I think there's a sore need for some social progress in a lot of places that could benefit from a bit of shaking. “



Now, I will elaborate a bit more.



I think we can agree that Westeros has many social problems. Two large ones are the lack of power of the smallfolk and its sexism. When, the Others come, I suspect they will kill a great number of people. This of course will probably have the effect raising the wages of the common laborers and with that increased economic power will come, perhaps, greater bargaining power. Also, since there will be a shortage of labor, when the killing is done, it may be likely that women will gain greater power because they might be needed to augment the labor force. Also, it may be the case that more men die as a result of the Others, since they make the bulk of the Westeros' military forces, resulting, perhaps, in even more increased economic and political power for women.



If we divorce, the effect of the Others from their intentions and methods, allowing no inquiry into the Others' intentions or methods, then they come off looking quite good. In fact, we may even go so far as saying that the people fighting them might even be “immoral”.



But, its good to see, we are in agreement that an inquiry into the Others intentions (and perhaps methods too?) is necessary to make judgement about their “positive changes.”



Its true that Dany's dislike of slavery and idealism is a point in her favor, but that hardly ends the analysis, nor should it.



ETA: Edited To Fix A Grammar Error.


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Yes I suppose that is a point about Stannis and stasis. He even says it himself. The Seven are proudwing for him, while Melisandre is is red hawk. He's still hawking, he's just changed his hawk.

That. Is. Brilliant!

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Many years of death and starvation? How do you know that?

All Meereen needs is allies, time and good management. Food can be imported by allies. Buildings can be rebuilt. And GRRM has made clear that Meereen has a well trained workforce that can produce goods - they just need to import the materials - kind of like what India did at the start of the 20th century. By the looks of it, Meereen could have the most powerful navy in Essos - Ironborn + Slave driven Voltene fleet. Yunkai will be crippled for years and may actually be absorbed.

I don't think doom and gloom is a foregone conclusion.

People on this forum say how things could have been handled better, but so few people have given alternatives except slow reform (modern methods in a medieval like world) or just ignore the suffering of millions of people on a continent while being able to change it. Modern reform works very rarely, if at all in a medieval setting. Order is not always a positive, if the order is corrupted.

You are right, reconfiquring Mereen's large slave exporting economy into one that exports other products and building up its internal economy should take no time at all. Probably less than a year. What was I thinking?

And again, what where all these export options that Mereen had? Wasn't it olive trees or something? And what was the time frame for those to start bearing fruit?

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Excellent catch! Drogo does call Dani his "moon and stars." In medieval literature, the moon is a symbol of mutability, even mortality, the cycle of birth and death, an aspect of Fortune's wheel. This is in contrast with the constant and eternal stars (per the medieval cosmology). In pre-Copernican cosmology, all things from the moon's orbit down were mortal and subject to fortune and change, whereas all things above the moon were unchanging and perfect (this included the stars).

I believe this can tie back into OnionAhaiReborn's post regarding the cyclical nature of the history of Westeros (even Planetos as a whole). If I can be forgiven for a television reference, right from the first season I considered the turning wheels in the opening sequence to be a visual symbol of the inexhorable cycle of the seasons that drives the periodic overthrow of all civilization when the Long Night comes again.

We also have Dany wearing pearls for her wedding to Hizdahr the Unpronounceable. Pearls are the jewel associated with the moon, as well as the sea. The ocean's tides are, after all, controlled by the moon. Note too, the colors of her dragons: white for the moon's full, black for its dark, and green for the sea. Much as I hate to say it, I think Dani is destined to get caught up with Vic and his gang, and control them as her agents for chaos as she returns to Westeros. Moon and stars? Moon ruling the tides, and stars being what sailors use to navigate? Coincidence? I think not!

I conclude that this wheel of time (sorry! had to go there) will NOT cease, but continue--change is eternal (moon and stars). So bittersweet, indeed. This has happened before. It will happen again. (And the rest is cylons--er, silence.)

:bowdown:

There is a lot of the "moon cycle" in Dany's arc

From the triple goddess in mythology, we have the 3 phases of the moon:

Maiden

Mother

Crone

Maiden is symbolized by the waxing moon, when the moon is about to go from dark to full.

Maiden represents the young girl that has not yet awakened, this is Dany in AGOT when she has not yet realized that who she is, and finally awakens at the end of AGOT. Making the first lunar transformation from maiden to mother. This is also the first time her hair burns also symbolizing the first transformation. In other mythologies the waxing moon represents "positive magic" drawing things towards you, similar to how Dany got her dragons and khalasar at the end of this stage.

Dany now reaches the mother phase of the moon, this is represented by a full moon.

After this point in the story Dany is now the mother of dragons, and not only that but also a mother to her whole khalasar. Her role as a mother becomes larger when she takes in former slaves and is now responsible for their well being. Thid phase pretty much covers the rest of Dany's arc as she faces trials and tribulations in being both a mother to thousands and being a mother of dragons. Social, sexual and emotional decisions play a big role in Dany's story at this point. Dany's hair burns again at the end of ADWD which symbolizes the final transformation from Mother to crone.

The last Lunar phase presented as the crone is symbolized by the waning moon. As ADWD came to an end I believe the last phase of the lunar cycle representing the crone will be the rest of Dany's arc. Crone represents being a leader and role model for your people, in other words an elder, after passing through the phase of motherhood, one gains experience. I believe the first step to this transformation will be Dany's acceptance in to the Dosh Khaleen and becoming a crone.

They are collectively former khaleesis, the wives of khals that have died. They are the only permanent residents of Vaes Dothrak. They enjoy great honor and status amongst the Dothraki and serve as seers foretelling the future and interpreting omens for the Dothraki. They are served by eunuchs.

However from HOTU

Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.

In other mythologies the waning moon also represents "negative" magic, not negativity but drawing things away from you such as burdens etc, this is similar to Dany taking off the burden of being Queen of Mereen.

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snip

Apologies this can't be more thorough at the moment; I think we might merely be having a simple misunderstanding on something.

First, I enjoy flippancy and jesting, and I wasn't taking it personally.

The bolded paragraph you quoted is my saying that a catalyst can be appreciated. Appreciation for something isn't endorsement. I was trying to set up the idea that a catalyst itself has significance, and change-- on it's own-- is a neutral concept.

I then went on in the OP to differentiate Dany from being a simple force of nature (you didn't repost that part above though). She may have originally intended to buy, and even free slaves for non-humanitarian reasons, but you can't deny that once she realized how wrong slavery was and that she was the only person who could take a stand, that humanitarian ideals are fueling her conquest.

So I was already arguing that Dany's motives are important-- she's an agent of change, but more precisely, a revolutionary figure. At best, something like the Others are a neutral, a force of nature.

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The last Lunar phase presented as the crone is symbolized by the waning moon. As ADWD came to an end I believe the last phase of the lunar cycle representing the crone will be the rest of Dany's arc. Crone represents being a leader and role model for your people, in other words an elder, after passing through the phase of motherhood, one gains experience. I believe the first step to this transformation will be Dany's acceptance in to the Dosh Khaleen and becoming a crone.

Awesome, your grace!

So do you think that Dani might go to the Dosh Khaleen and seize authority as a kind of High Crone over the rest? This could be a way of uniting the Khalasars under a single matriarch. In which case, she would be a player in the Game of Crones.

Yes, I *did* have to say it.

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You are right, reconfiquring Mereen's large slave exporting economy into one that exports other products and building up its internal economy should take no time at all. Probably less than a year. What was I thinking?

And again, what where all these export options that Mereen had? Wasn't it olive trees or something? And what was the time frame for those to start bearing fruit?

Olive trees bear fruit in 4-5 years IRL.

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Awesome, your grace!

So do you think that Dani might go to the Dosh Khaleen and seize authority as a kind of High Crone over the rest? This could be a way of uniting the Khalasars under a single matriarch. In which case, she would be a player in the Game of Crones.

Yes, I *did* have to say it.

:lmao: @ Game of Crones

Yea something like that.

I don't believe in the theories that Dany is going to Vaes Dothrak with "fire and blood" and just destroy everything or the ones that she will be captured as prisoner.

As the western sky turned the color of a blood bruise, she heard the sound of approaching

horses. Dany rose, wiped her hands on her ragged undertunic, and went to stand beside her dragon.

That was how Khal Jhaqo found her, when half a hundred mounted warriors emerged from the

drifting smoke.

Khal Jhaqo, most readers expected Dany to say "Dracarys" and burn Khal Jhaqo (Since she promised to make him pay) or go on Drogon and run away from the khalasar but she stood beside Drogon probably to show the Dothraki her strength.

Which means she is willing to make peace with the Dothraki through Dothraki customs, so I think its possible she will go to the crones and join them (perhaps there is some sort of ritual) as duty as a former Khalessi, and seeing her dragon(strength) they may elevate her position.

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You are right, reconfiquring Mereen's large slave exporting economy into one that exports other products and building up its internal economy should take no time at all. Probably less than a year. What was I thinking?

And again, what where all these export options that Mereen had? Wasn't it olive trees or something? And what was the time frame for those to start bearing fruit?

1. Don't appreciate the sarkiness, but whatever.

2. I never said it would be so easy or matter of factly that you are trying to imply I am saying.

3. Meereen is not going to make it without AID from allies, as I have stated. Something that it did not need pre Dany (as the economy relied entirely on slaves) , or have post-Dany as of yet. Allies can lower the tax temporarily on goods coming in and out of Meereen for a few years. While Astapor trained solidiers and Yunkai trained sex slaves, Meeren trained slaves with trades - hell slaves were starting up their own businesses in Meereen shortly after they were freed - not bad a start for rebuilding an economy.

4. You said death and starvation. Starvation can be solved by aid from new found allies. Braavos and Volantis might help. Plus we don't actually know how many people will be left when the Pale Mare recedes, food might still be a problem, but not THAT much of a problem. I assume you mean death by pale male, because after the Battle of Meereen (which I think most of us will think Dany's forces will win, all Meereen's enemies will be exhausted for few years at least.

It is going to take work, help from outside sources and time, maybe Meereen will descend into hell but its a bit presumptuous just to assume that.

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But the point of all of that is to show that it's never going to be the same; it's been fundamentally uprooted if not eradicated. The economy is overturned, other slaves are on the verge of revolt, people are looking at her as a major liberator: the spark made a major ripples, not all of which are pretty or progressive immediately. But one really cannot deny the fact that the slave trade is never going to be the same.

That is a very reasonable assumption. It also ties into her own history with slavery coming full circle, and it doesn't just change Essos, it has in fact been changing her.

Dany may have started out in Braavos, but she spent most of her young life and childhood in a slave society. She was never taught it was wrong as a child, she grew up in world with slaves and slavery. She was not a slave owner but she was the guest of them and never really gave it a second thought. Which is not uncommon for young people growing up in a slave society. But then her brother had a brain storm, and sold her. Really gave her as a gift from the Dothraki perspective, but she was heavily exposed to a different level of that society. Not the owners, the slavers. And through her time with them we see her start thinking slavery is pretty bad. Now people like you are me or most from the real world think well no shit. But they did not grow up in a slave society. Just look at the masters, they don't really think they are doing anything wrong.

So as her journey goes her level of interest in breaking the chains becomes more and more proactive. First her followers from the Dothraki, your free you can do what you want. They decided to follow her. Her disgust at the treatment of the Unsullied, which I don't think any reader wasn't disgusted by that. But the Unsullied follow her of there own free will, and we also find out they are grateful for being freed. And we see a lot of slaves following her of their own free will. Sure some find it to hard and want to go be slaves again, but that is not everyone or even the majority.

People forget how hard change is, and your right it will never be the same, and it's not over yet. The story of the slaves has not come full circle yet, but it will. The slaves are learning to think for themselves and do for themselves and that is going to take time. But leaders are emerging, and they already know how to do everything, they just don't know how to do it for themselves yet.

On a side note I find it very interesting that Braavos never did anything, they are suppose to hate slavery. But we know slave ships use their port, and I would not doubt the banks have dealings with the Masters. All that lumber they buy from Essos for all their ships, I wonder who cut all those trees down? Or all that food they import, and clothes etc...

I think this is an interesting thread, but I don't think remapping Dany is going to help that much. Though it's a ripple. The problem is deeper than that, and not really the characters fault, the problem is rampant fan speculation. She is evil, she is crazy, she wants to steal the throne from someones favorite character, she wants to hurt Jon, it's not fare that she has dragons, she is going to destroy the world etc... Now I don't mind speculation, or theories or anything else like that. But here is the rub, it has gone from speculation to way to many fans taking it as fact and basing there ideas off of other people theories. And basing theories off of theories or basing theories off of theories based on other theories and presuming it is all fact. Most of those theories lack real text support, suffer from personal desires, and lack independent thought, and often conflict with the Authors own statements. No Dany is not the problem, uncontrolled bias is the problem. Dany gets blamed for things she has not done or is not associated with all the time on this site. Whenever fans have to try and make excuses that freeing slaves is bad, you have a problem, a big problem.

The girl has literally done nothing wrong to anyone in Westeros. Yet you here she is going to kill Jon and attack Jon and, and burn it all to the ground, and cause war and death in Westeros. She does not even know who Jon Snow is, hell Jon doesn't even know who he is. And war and death in Westeros, comes with your morning coffee. Although she has not actually made a aggressive move against Westeros, and has not killed anyone in Westeros. Although the crown has tried to murder her and spied on her, killed her family, stolen from her, servants of the crown actually helped give her to the Dothraki. Funny thing is all these detractors of Dany have favorites, and while the condemn Dany for acts she has never committed they embrace the death and destruction there favorites have brought to Westeros.

Once you get people at that level of denial, there is really no fixing it. It's ok not to like a story or a character, but the crap that gets made up on this site about her? Give me a break. Now I know you are not a Dany fan, but you would not be posting this thread if you didn't think something was wrong on this site. The most basic premisses of your thread is that "maybe we are looking at her the wrong way?" That is an understatement, and like I said it's not that I think anyone needs to like her, but a great number of the threads on this site regarding her are just plain misguided, misinformation and wrong.

I appreciate the fact that you tried to make a difference in the way people look at the character. I don't know if it will help but I hope it does. The anti Dany bias has actually taken some really smart people, with good insight into the books and they let there hatred of her spread into there theories like a cancer and it literally ruins there own theories because they have moved away from critical thinking into emotional bias and that is not going to make a good theory. Dany is a red herring? An author spent 2 decades writing about her and gave her the 3rd most chapters in the books just to make her a red herring? Ideas like that, I am sorry are not thought out, but are based on emotion.

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Hmmm...I like that, but then that makes the three heads of the dragon Jon, creator, Stannis, preserver, and Dany, destroyer...

Or Jon, Tyrion, Dany.

Tyrion hasn't come up with any grand progressive project of his own so far, but he could well fill a preserver role, since he's good at holding shit together, even in most adverse circumstances, as we've seen in King's Landing. Although he lacks the romantic persona to become a figurehead for a progressive movement (and I guess he's realistic enough to see that and that's why he would never even try), it would probably be easy enough to get him on board, because he does have a fondness for cripples, bastards and broken things, a certain necessary solidarity with the downtrodden.

I think he would fill that function better than Stannis, since Stannis so far hasn't been too big on empathy.

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Snipped..... Dany is a red herring? An author spent 2 decades writing about her and gave her the 3rd most chapters in the books just to make her a red herring? Ideas like that, I am sorry are not thought out, but are based on emotion.

I don't consider her a red herring. But I do consider it a possibility that the author damaged both Dany and Tyrion more than he intended to and alienated more fans than he intended. I used to root for her and considered her a favorite and even wanted her to gain the IT, now I don't care if she lives or dies. I used to love Tyrion, now I don't care if he lives or dies either. I don't hate either character, I simply have been very disappointed in how both characters have evolved further toward amorality in my opinion.

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<snip>

Amen brother :bowdown: . Been saying this for ages . :bang:

The "Dany is mad" thing is bewildering, it came from one person's idea without any text support to back it up and for some people it is now canon. I don't get be started with Dany supposedly torturing children ugh. But that's not for this thread.

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