Let’s Change the Conversation: Remapping Dany

[Audrey Arryn]

That plan still appears to be to acquire yet another army, which she will use to kill more people and destroy more of Meereen. It's completely unclear that she's in any way prepared for what will follow.

She has been leading an army for 2 books she already knows the price of war. ADWD was to teach her what follows after conquering a city, she is not stupid to do the same thing all over again.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

She has been leading an army for 2 books she already knows the price of war. ADWD was to teach her what follows after conquering a city, she is not stupid to do the same thing all over again.

I think we should see what she actually does before saying how stupid she is or isn't. But that's me.

[butterbumps!]

I would consider that...destroying the existing structure of a society with no thought or plan or idea as to what should replace it...as tantamount to insanity. Destroying something and then crossing your fingers that somebody else can improve upon things. Yikes. That would make her incompetence in slaver's bay look heroic by comparison.

Um, isn't that what she did in Slaver's Bay? Destroy a system without knowing what would come next? So if she were to destroy some fundamental aspect of the existing system knowing that someone adequate would rebuild, it would be something of an improvement, no?

Look, I'm not sure if she tackles the system of government itself head on, some other inherently flawed social institution, or if she just burns wights on dragonback.

What it seems we both agree on is that she's not suited to the task of actually ruling or implementing reform, and that she's likely not going to learn how to become more suited to that type of leadership. And at least speaking for myself, I don't really think she's going to want to at all by the end, if she hasn't already abandoned that goal.

But the fact that she catalyzes change really can't be ignored. She's going to have an impact on the system in some capacity or another when she shows up.

First, I don't think the slavery question will get resolved very cleanly or at all. If GRRM writes the story such that Dany ends slavery in one or two years, I tend to think the story will lack credibility, the magical nature of the story notwithstanding.

Also, I think it is a very dubious act to conquer a place, then leave it in disorder and chaos. And I just find that it strains credulity to believe that a “newer and better order will spontaneously arise out of the ashes of the old order.” If that were the case, then the Dothraki should be the greatest creators of civilization in history.

Of course slavery won't be resolved. I think it tends to be a slow process to be removed completely and society rebuilt. I think the fact we're hearing of slave revolts (or at least just Volantene, but I thought there was one other one) is what indicates the rippling and that it will be resolved one day after the books have ended.

The Dothraki aren't conquerors in the same sense. They fight each other, but aren't taking over other civilizations, or doing so as a challenge to some social system. The major difference I see is that theirs is a system of flux, but not arching change.

[OldGimletEye]

Thats a bit presumptuous to say the least.

Thats not what her last chapter means. This quote in my opinion describes Dany's last chapter very well, and is probably the best interpretation I have seen on the board since I have joined.

-PatrickStormborn

Dany is not stupidly thinking "fire and blood" she has a plan.

Patrick Stormborn, or whatever his name is, is entititled to his opinions. I am not buying it.

Now, turning to the her plans. Her plan appears to be to acquire an army. She assumes, apparently, she can resolve her problems with the application of brute military force. Her last chapter doesn't give a lot of confidence that she has really learned much.

The thing is that brute military force can't solve every problem, even if you have dragons. It can not fix Slaver's Bay's broken economy. It can not build the institutional structures that are needed to leave a stable political order in Slaver's Bay.

Dany has only one tool in her tool box. And its a sledge hammer.

[Sevumar]

What it seems we both agree on is that she's not suited to the task of actually ruling or implementing reform, and that she's likely not going to learn how to become more suited to that type of leadership. And at least speaking for myself, I don't really think she's going to want to at all by the end, if she hasn't already abandoned that goal.

But the fact that she catalyzes change really can't be ignored. She's going to have an impact on the system in some capacity or another when she shows up.

If she's not prepared to take on civil leadership following conquest, then she seems like she's either criminally negligent or malicious. If, as a result of all her blundering around and pursuit of familial vendettas, something positive is done by other people, it's not something we can reasonably credit her with anyway.

There is a chance that she can finally open her eyes and learn meaningful, constructive lessons from her mistakes. That's the only way I see her character doing something that has a constructive impact beyond taking part in the war against the Others.

There are plenty of people and forces in the story with the capacity to cause destruction. If that's all Dany is good for, then I don't see that she's much different from any of the rest of them.

[Cas Stark]

She at least tried in Slaver's Bay, it may have been incredibly short sighted and foolish, but she did try a few different short term solutions, killing all the men in the ruling class in Astapor and leaving a triumvirate of the people in it's place, fail. Just taking the slaves in Yunkai and leaving, also fail. She then attempts to stick it out herself in Meereen and put her personal power hopefully to use, also fail. Because you can't really tear up complex social and economic structures on the fly and expect success.

But, you are now suggesting that in Westeros she would succeed doing LESS....that she's going to again see some injustice and destroy the structure, but this time, she will simply walk away and automatically leave it to others to fix. This is much worse, not better.

She gets points for trying in Essos, what you suggest is much much worse. I'd rather bring back Tywin Lannister from the dead and give the IT to him than let Dany just ramdomly destroy unjust social structures she doesn't like and then hope it all gets better.

[El Guapo]

She at least tried in Slaver's Bay, it may have been incredibly short sighted and foolish, but she did try a few different short term solutions, killing all the men in the ruling class in Astapor and leaving a triumvirate of the people in it's place, fail. Just taking the slaves in Yunkai and leaving, also fail. She then attempts to stick it out herself in Meereen and put her personal power hopefully to use, also fail. Because you can't really tear up complex social and economic structures on the fly and expect success.

She hasn't failed in Mereen. It is an ongoing situation.

[butterbumps!]

Is it more neglectful to interrupt a flawed, immoral system when you are the only one with power to do so, knowing you will not be able to restore order, but that without your intervention, the rot will continue?

Or is it more neglectful to allow a flawed, immoral system to continue when you're the only one with the power to interrupt it?

She hasn't failed in Mereen. It is an ongoing situation.

For the purpose of this thread, I am taking her performance in Meereen as a premise that she is neither suited to, nor desirous, of being a ruler. She is, however, a successful leader.

[GoldenFleece]

I like the OP's opinion on this. I have being wanting to say this for a while now. I have noticed in GRRM's writing of slavers bay, he has laid hints at how stagnant SB has become (the walls are crumbling on walls, bad infrastructure, the suffering of human beings, being a shadow of the Ghiscarin empire of old), even Hizdahr, her husband admitted to her that Meereen had gotten stagnant and seen her as a catalyst to change to build a new Meereen - he just didn't share Dany's vision.

We in the 21st century (especially in democratic countries) are used to democratic votes, due process, peaceful protests. We have become de-sensitised to the medieval way of change. Even today the Arab Spring brought a sudden wave of change to parts of North Africa and the ME, people died, a lot of people - now the first democratic Arab country is about to start up in Tunisia. Violent change is a massive part of our history and has shaped the world today, it would be wrong to turn your nose up at it.

But back to ASOIAF, its is obvious that Dany has changed things forever in Essos, (although the ripple effect will happen in Westeros to). Slaves are on the cusp of revolt in Volantis, and who knows about the rest of the free cities who depend of those slaves. Is it better to kick down the rotten structure now and see hundreds of thousands die or allow millions of people alive and unborn to come to be kept in bondage, to be killed, raped, beaten, tortured? That's what people have to ask. When an old forest has old rotten trees that smother all new saplings that try to go, a purging fire is inevitable and thus new saplings can grow.

She is not a good ruler (so far), but actually she doesn't need to be. The key to being a good ruler for kings and queens, is not actually to be a good ruler, but to surround yourself with people who know how to rule and take their advice. She hasn't done that so far, but hopefully she will do and Tyrion who does know how to rule is on the way.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Is it more neglectful to interrupt a flawed, immoral system when you are the only one with power to do so, knowing you will not be able to restore order, but that without your intervention, the rot will continue?

Or is it more neglectful to allow a flawed, immoral system to continue when you're the only one with the power to interrupt it?

If we talk morals....I agree the latter. However moral it may be to intervene, it is irresponsible to do so with out the means or a plan to withdraw, or at the least empower the people to take care of themselves.

[Cas Stark]

Is it more neglectful to interrupt a flawed, immoral system when you are the only one with power to do so, knowing you will not be able to restore order, but that without your intervention, the rot will continue?

Or is it more neglectful to allow a flawed, immoral system to continue when you're the only one with the power to interrupt it?

For the purpose of this thread, I am taking her performance in Meereen as a premise that she is neither suited to, nor desirous, of being a ruler. She is, however, a successful leader.

Leadership team. Transition team. Economic adviser. Cultural liaison.

If Khaleesi can't do the ruling or the governing herself but only her special snowflake change agency can make the change then she should have thought about finding some people with the needed skills prior to pulling the trigger on the change. Tearing stuff up when you have no idea how to fix it and then using the excuse that it was all broken to begin with and sooner or later someone else who knows how to fix it will show up is lame.

But, if you really are asking if the choice is do nothing or do something with no plan or skills or reason to believe the "change" will be an improvement and it could just as easily be a worse situation, then I am going to go with do no harm as the first order of business.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Leadership team. Transition team. Economic adviser. Cultural liaison.

If Khaleesi can't do the ruling or the governing herself but only her special snowflake change agency can make the change then she should have thought about finding some people with the needed skills prior to pulling the trigger on the change. Tearing stuff up when you have no idea how to fix it and then using the excuse that it was all broken to begin with and sooner or later someone else who knows how to fix it will show up is lame.

In her defense, she did tried. In Astapor. And we all know what happened there...

[Audrey Arryn]

Patrick Stormborn, or whatever his name is, is entititled to his opinions. I am not buying it.

Now, turning to the her plans. Her plan appears to be to acquire an army. She assumes, apparently, she can resolve her problems with the application of brute military force. Her last chapter doesn't give a lot of confidence that she has really learned much.

The thing is that brute military force can't solve every problem, even if you have dragons. It can not fix Slaver's Bay's broken economy. It can not build the institutional structures that are needed to leave a stable political order in Slaver's Bay.

Dany has only one tool in her tool box. And its a sledge hammer.

Rude remark wasn't needed you could clearly spell the username.

And who says she is going to do that?

There is nothing in the text suggesting Dany is going to try and build an economy in Slaver's Bay. All she is interested in is getting rid of the opposing forces against her freedmen, rescue them and head to westeros and all that requires is brute force so I don't see why she needs to make an economy if she and her freedmen aren't going to be staying there.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Wow. Bumps went to the trouble of crafting such a nice OP and....

ugh.

Anyway, heres my piece on the subject.

I think bumps is absolutely right. Dany represents upheaval and change. She is like a force of nature moving from one place to the next. She is Fire. Destruction and heat, but also cleansing and allowing for rebirth. Despite her best efforts (yes she does try) to "plant" and "sow", she finds herself incapable of truly doing so. She is the fire that is ignited in the hearts of men to change, but she is not the thing that builds upon that change.

Dragons plant no trees.

Dragons are fire made flesh. Dragons raze and scour. They also fly and live according to their own will. Dany in Slaver's Bay is the dragon razing the land, her flight from there on Drogon represents the feeling to move on. Is her work truly done there? Yes, i think it is. Shes ignited the want and need for change, but she cannot augment or control it any further. Meereen itself also does not wish for her to do so. They want change, Hizdahr remarks on this, but it is change from within they truly desire. They dont wish to begin "anew" as much as repurpose custom and adapt. This is why they push for Hizdahr to be their King. The Sons of the Harpy represent the discord and bucking against this change.

Drawing from Jon, we see that he is capable of building and "crystallizing" ideas, however, he lacks the fire to cleanse. The Nights Watch needs this fire, for it is destroying itself from within. Not like a flame, but like a cancer. Jon has the strength of a flame to burn bright, but lacks the destructive and cleansing aspects of that flame. Dany is like a pyre, Jon like a campfire. Jon can administer, he can think outside the box, he can delegate. But can he light the fire that burns in the hearts of men? He can have men gather around his warmth, but he is lacking the inspiration to burn bright. He is also ice. Preserving. He tries to hold onto honor and duty. He believes in the core idea of the Night's Watch, but he knows theres this rotting decay within it. His assassination proves that he is not the flame that can burn bright enough to inspire change. Someone has poured water on the campfire. But the ideas Jon has are still in place. He has united the wildlings in an odd way. He has compromised with Stannis (the burning Stag), he has tried to blaze, just as Dany has attempted to preserve.

[El Guapo]

Is it more neglectful to interrupt a flawed, immoral system when you are the only one with power to do so, knowing you will not be able to restore order, but that without your intervention, the rot will continue?

Or is it more neglectful to allow a flawed, immoral system to continue when you're the only one with the power to interrupt it?

For the purpose of this thread, I am taking her performance in Meereen as a premise that she is neither suited to, nor desirous, of being a ruler. She is, however, a successful leader.

I understand that I just don't agree that her performance in Mereen shows she is not suited to be a ruler. I think if any other character did what she did in Mereen that they would be in pretty much the same situation she is in now.

[GoldenFleece]

I think it is telling she only gave ruling a shot when there was no options left.

In Astapor she gave the power to the people of Astapor, they screwed it up.

She bypassed Yunkai by making a deal freeing all their slaves, they immediately started slaving again.

In Meereen, she had not way to make it West immediately without killing a lot of her freed slaves or abandoning them, so she decided to rule until she could get west.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

And who says she is going to do that?

There is nothing in the text suggesting Dany is going to try and build an economy in Slaver's Bay. All she is interested in is getting rid of the opposing forces against her freedmen, rescue them and head to westeros and all that requires is brute force so I don't see why she needs to make an economy if she and her freedmen aren't going to be staying there.

But the people will stay there right? Slaver's bay people have no reason to move to Westeros. She must roll-on economic changes. She has to stay there and see through the changes. If you start of revolution then you have duty to see it through properly. Unless she sets up proper economy in Slaver's bay, she has failed as a ruler. I think she needs to stay in Essos for five years, to undo the damage she has done to the economy.

[OldGimletEye]

Rude remark wasn't needed you could clearly spell the username.

And who says she is going to do that?

There is nothing in the text suggesting Dany is going to try and build an economy in Slaver's Bay. All she is interested in is getting rid of the opposing forces against her freedmen, rescue them and head to westeros and all that requires is brute force so I don't see why she needs to make an economy if she and her freedmen aren't going to be staying there.

Yes, because she is going to lead them all, Moses style, into the land of milk and honey. I doubt it.

[Tyrion1991]

OP

Danys arc is about ruling. Its meant to be contrasted to Cerseis arc. GRRM keeps saying how he was interested in ruling and contrasted this to Lord of the Rings which doesn't talk about it. I am pretty sure he also said something like that we "see the ways that women rule in these books".

You pull the idea that Dany is a bad administrator out of thin air. Dany feeds a city of half a million people, organizes public works, raises a new militia, trains free companies, raises taxes and provides relief. Those aren't the real problem. The issues she faces are security and military. She cannot deal with them because she is sick of war and not willing to get her hands dirty. It is this moral conflict that prevents her from taking on her enemies and allows them to take advantage of her. That is not the same thing as being an incompetent administrator. Dany does get sick of ruling Meereen but thats because she is torn between her desire for peace and not wanting to become a monster and her feeling of being humiliated and weak. "Why am I here dining with men I'd rather flay? Why does this taste of defeat?". ADWD is about Dany resolving this issue and embracing Fire and Blood. It is not to stress that Jon is a better character.

[butterbumps!]

Leadership team. Transition team. Economic adviser. Cultural liaison.

If Khaleesi can't do the ruling or the governing herself but only her special snowflake change agency can make the change then she should have thought about finding some people with the needed skills prior to pulling the trigger on the change. Tearing stuff up when you have no idea how to fix it and then using the excuse that it was all broken to begin with and sooner or later someone else who knows how to fix it will show up is lame.

Can we have a time out here? Dany is not my "special snowflake." As I already stated, I actually deeply dislike her on a personal level.

I am in no way defending the lack of "transition team" as part of the planning process from a ruling viewpoint. Yes, not doing this in an educated way made things a lot worse. Not knowing the need to be careful about this and how to select them is a point against her ruling and administration abilities, which is pretty much what I said in the OP and I'm not sure why continuing to make the point she cannot adminstrate is necessary.

I understand that I just don't agree that her performance in Mereen shows she is not suited to be a ruler. I think if any other character did what she did in Mereen that they would be in pretty much the same situation she is in now.

Not only did Meereen not reveal her to be unsuited, the imposition of order on herself that ruling required nearly destroyed her, stymying the good parts of her character wrt opportunities for applying her natural talents. Not unlike what the throne did to Robert. They are more similar than seems obvious at first in that regard. So in terms objectively viewing Dany's strengths and weaknesses, with aGoT Robert as a cautionary tale, I strongly do not believe ruling as a conventional queen is her destiny.