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Thoughts on Jon and Sansa


Queen Alienor

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Ned held grudges too. He still hated Tywin and Jamie after all those years and Jamie resented how judgmental Ned was.




As far as not marrying Rhaegar Arya and Catelyn wouldn't do it for different reasons. Catelyn wouldn't do it because she always did what her father expected of her. She wasn't into Ned but she was going to do it because it was her duty. Arya wouldn't do it because she has no romantic or sexual interest. Catelyn actually could have had interest when she was young based on liking Jenny/Duncan's story and liking Brandon.









Arya Stark attacked a Prince over a commoner. Lyanna folded like a deck of cards either to marriage or a pretty prince.


That or she was kidnapped and couldn't save herself.





It was more like Brandon since he also wanted to attack a prince.



Anyways, there was a thread once and I think Robb is more like Ned than Jon. Jon isn't so rigid and stuck on honor. Ned let his men get to know him while Jon alienates them. Jon appeared cold even to his friends in AFFC/ADWD and Ned knew when to take off his lord's face. Jon wouldn't take off his.



ETA:





I would not call Arya a monster, but I agree that the part where Lyanna and Arya were comparable has long stopped.



Lyanna, despite her toughness, tom-boyishness, seems to have fallen for the prince after all, something I cannot see Arya do. Lyanna had some lady in her, but not so much Arya.




Lyanna being a tomboy isn't related to whether or not she would fall for a prince. It's only stereotypes that links the two. A tomboy just has interest in certain things associated with boys.



However, many young boys are interested in sex and relationships. A tomboy having no interest wouldn't make her more like the boys.



Most of the time when people bring up romance they are talking about hetero relationships so these girls aren't falling for each other. Men/boys are reciprocating their feelings and also have interest in it.


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I agree that Sansa has more Ned like qualities, but she's very dutiful too a'la Cat. I see Sansa as a young woman who has been very mailable up until this point she is now creating her own persona as opposed to fitting the one her parents and her captors had thrust upon her.


Alayne, is being based on Jon, I thought that as soon as I read it. He is the only Bastard she has ever known after all.


I do see lots of Ned in Sansa in her personality and her values but the dutiful side to her is Catlyn, though I guess you can argue that Ned too was dutiful he did his duty in marrying Cat, and in becoming Lord of Winterfell, it was all meant for Brandon, after all.



Jon takes his lessons from Ned just as Robb did I think the two boys were very alike. Jon is subdued and withdrawn due to his status within the household as the illegitimate cuckoo in the nest.


But I think Jon too would have wed a high born girl who's virginity he took. He constantly felt responsible for Ygritte after they began having sex. He ripped himself up over the consequences of the affair.


I think though that Robbs actions regarding Jane stem more from his sympathy and regard for Jon that from his fathers sense of right & wrong. Robb loves Jon, enough to name him his heir. He has non of his mothers feelings of fear that he may one day betray the offspring of their siblings because as the rest barr Sansa he see's Jon simply as his brother, whom he loves. Sansa is the only one who ever pays heed to his bastardry, and she is it would seem learning her lessons in regard to that right now. She only saw it that way as a product of her mother and the Septa. Who would have gone to great lengths to instil in the girls the price of bastardry after all if a high born man throws a few seeds to the wind what of it? but if a maid gets with child outside of a marriage, well that is a different matter all together. Of course their words were lost on fuck you Arya, who frankly couldn't give a shit about any of Westeros's rules and etiquette. But Sansa she neing the dutiful child she was took it all in and paid heed, now though now her eyes are being opened and she will I am certain embrace Jon as a dear and beloved brother when they finally meet again.


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She only saw it that way as a product of her mother and the Septa. Who would have gone to great lengths to instil in the girls the price of bastardry after all if a high born man throws a few seeds to the wind what of it? but if a maid gets with child outside of a marriage, well that is a different matter all together. Of course their words were lost on fuck you Arya, who frankly couldn't give a shit about any of Westeros's rules and etiquette. But Sansa she neing the dutiful child she was took it all in and paid heed, now though now her eyes are being opened and she will I am certain embrace Jon as a dear and beloved brother when they finally meet again.

Exactly. Sansa probably assimilated the notion that Jon's prospects must be different from the rest of the family's by way of his birth, though, unlike Cat she never seems to have resented Jon personally-or regarded him as a threat to the "true" family. And yeah, Robb's sympathy with Jon played a HUGE role in the Westerling match.

On the subject of Arya vs. Lyanna it's entirely possible Arya would have been more Lyanna-ish as she grew older, if her family had all stayed at Winterfell, but Arya's childhood trauma has sent her in a VERY different...and dangerous direction.

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That moment in AFFC when Sansa realizes she wants to see Jon Snow after she heard he is LC of the NW stirkes me as a real turning point in the series,

It certainly seems like foreshadowing for Sansa's return to the North. She was the most Southern like child, who most wanted to go away, and now she's desperate to return to that wild country where she truly belongs. They've made a point of establishing, after all, that none of the other places she's been are for her-KL as far she's concerned is a viper's pit, and a circle of hell. The Vale, is better, but she finds it a lonely place and doesn't feel it can ever be her home. Maybe the Riverlands, would suit her but I think it's more likely she'll be going back North, to rebuild Winterfell.

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I'm not sure Sansa is that much like Ned. Ned has a sense of honour, which is different than a need to fulfill social expectations. Honour is about doing the right thing, even when it's hard, thinking of others, and not only of yourself. I think Robb and Jon illustrate that better, but they're men, and rulers, so it's easier to compare. Sansa doesn't have enough power to decide if she will execute someone for this or this reason, march to that place, ally with this family, etc...But still, while she certainly doesn't lack compassion and has a gentle soul, I don't feel that righteousness coming from her. I don't blame her for going along with Littlefinger's plans, because she doesn't really have a choice, but I think a young and female Ned would be disgusted with some aspects of it.



The truth is that Ned is a Lord, 35 years old, experienced and married when we meet him, and his children are in different situations. Apart from Jon and Robb (mostly Robb), we can't conclude to what extent Bran, Arya and Sansa resemble him.



I also agree that Sansa is connecting more with her northern heritage. I hope she can learn to play the game without becoming a psychopath like LF (I know you can't become a psychopath, you're born one, but you can understant my point)


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Perhaps she would have if her brother and father had died whilst she was free to do something about. We don't know what Lyanna would have done having gone through the same path as Arya. All we can say is that they had a similar base, it shows that nurture had a huge effect on their ultimate development. Lyanna was groomed to be married, in fact she was engaged to Robert; Arya wasn't groomed to be anything. Rickard certainly never hired a swordmaster to teach Lyanna and Lyanna never saw her whole family get destroyed, thinking she was alone in the world and having seen the brutal torture and feared for her life in the same way Arya did.

Arya got on that ship because it was the only real path she saw before her. So, no by the time Lyanna died she was not a join a cult of assassins type of woman, but we can't know whether she would have made the same choices as Arya or not.

I do not think Sansa is like Ned but maybe it's just because I can't get over her going to Cersei with the plan and equivocating before Lady was killed, things I don't think Ned would have ever done.

I think Ned went to Cersi first about what he knows and told her he was telling the King.

Also on the Lady sacrifice, Sansa told her dad the truth the night before she was brought before the King what I find weird is there is no reaction from Ned ( as far as I remember ) when Sansa said she didn't remember what happened, since Ned learned it off page I wonder if Ned told Sansa to say she didn't remember not thinking Robert and Cersei would be total A holes.

Hence Ned tells Arya that Sansa can't betray Joffery even if he's wrong.

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I agree that Sansa has more Ned like qualities, but she's very dutiful too a'la Cat. I see Sansa as a young woman who has been very mailable up until this point she is now creating her own persona as opposed to fitting the one her parents and her captors had thrust upon her.

Alayne, is being based on Jon, I thought that as soon as I read it. He is the only Bastard she has ever known after all.

I do see lots of Ned in Sansa in her personality and her values but the dutiful side to her is Catlyn, though I guess you can argue that Ned too was dutiful he did his duty in marrying Cat, and in becoming Lord of Winterfell, it was all meant for Brandon, after all.

Jon takes his lessons from Ned just as Robb did I think the two boys were very alike. Jon is subdued and withdrawn due to his status within the household as the illegitimate cuckoo in the nest.

But I think Jon too would have wed a high born girl who's virginity he took. He constantly felt responsible for Ygritte after they began having sex. He ripped himself up over the consequences of the affair.

I think though that Robbs actions regarding Jane stem more from his sympathy and regard for Jon that from his fathers sense of right & wrong. Robb loves Jon, enough to name him his heir. He has non of his mothers feelings of fear that he may one day betray the offspring of their siblings because as the rest barr Sansa he see's Jon simply as his brother, whom he loves. Sansa is the only one who ever pays heed to his bastardry, and she is it would seem learning her lessons in regard to that right now. She only saw it that way as a product of her mother and the Septa. Who would have gone to great lengths to instil in the girls the price of bastardry after all if a high born man throws a few seeds to the wind what of it? but if a maid gets with child outside of a marriage, well that is a different matter all together. Of course their words were lost on fuck you Arya, who frankly couldn't give a shit about any of Westeros's rules and etiquette. But Sansa she neing the dutiful child she was took it all in and paid heed, now though now her eyes are being opened and she will I am certain embrace Jon as a dear and beloved brother when they finally meet again.

I mostly agree. While I think Sansa is a great deal like Ned, there is of course some Catelyn in her. And yes, I think Robb thought about Jon when he decided to marry Jeyne. And while it seems clear that Sansa followed her mother's and septa's line regarding Jon, she was obviously never unkind to him. She clearly sees him as part of her family, and Jon does remember her very fondly (for example when he thinks that Sansa would have been enchanted by the landscape beyond the wall or when he remembers her telling him how to talk to girls). They never had the close bond Arya and Jon had, but they seem to have a maybe distant yet loving relationship. I never understood why some people think they would end up being enemies.

Exactly. Sansa probably assimilated the notion that Jon's prospects must be different from the rest of the family's by way of his birth, though, unlike Cat she never seems to have resented Jon personally-or regarded him as a threat to the "true" family. And yeah, Robb's sympathy with Jon played a HUGE role in the Westerling match.

On the subject of Arya vs. Lyanna it's entirely possible Arya would have been more Lyanna-ish as she grew older, if her family had all stayed at Winterfell, but Arya's childhood trauma has sent her in a VERY different...and dangerous direction.

I agree.

Lyanna is always a dangerous comparison, IMO, because we don't know much about her. She is said to have been tomboyish, a great rider, not approving of Robert as a husband due to the likelihood of him cheating and having cried during Rhaegar's singing. I just don't think this is enough to form a real opinion of her.

That moment in AFFC when Sansa realizes she wants to see Jon Snow after she heard he is LC of the NW stirkes me as a real turning point in the series,

It could be quite a turning moment for Sansa to realize that she is not the last Stark. I think that line was the first time Sansa consciously thought of Jon, her living brother and not just some distant memories of happier times.

It certainly seems like foreshadowing for Sansa's return to the North. She was the most Southern like child, who most wanted to go away, and now she's desperate to return to that wild country where she truly belongs. They've made a point of establishing, after all, that none of the other places she's been are for her-KL as far she's concerned is a viper's pit, and a circle of hell. The Vale, is better, but she finds it a lonely place and doesn't feel it can ever be her home. Maybe the Riverlands, would suit her but I think it's more likely she'll be going back North, to rebuild Winterfell.

I agree. I don't think she would be truly happy anywhere but in the North.

I'm not sure Sansa is that much like Ned. Ned has a sense of honour, which is different than a need to fulfill social expectations. Honour is about doing the right thing, even when it's hard, thinking of others, and not only of yourself. I think Robb and Jon illustrate that better, but they're men, and rulers, so it's easier to compare. Sansa doesn't have enough power to decide if she will execute someone for this or this reason, march to that place, ally with this family, etc...But still, while she certainly doesn't lack compassion and has a gentle soul, I don't feel that righteousness coming from her. I don't blame her for going along with Littlefinger's plans, because she doesn't really have a choice, but I think a young and female Ned would be disgusted with some aspects of it.

The truth is that Ned is a Lord, 35 years old, experienced and married when we meet him, and his children are in different situations. Apart from Jon and Robb (mostly Robb), we can't conclude to what extent Bran, Arya and Sansa resemble him.

I also agree that Sansa is connecting more with her northern heritage. I hope she can learn to play the game without becoming a psychopath like LF (I know you can't become a psychopath, you're born one, but you can understant my point)

You have a point there. We don't really know how Ned was like in his youth, because the oldest memories he tells us about are shortly before the RR, so nothing about him being a child or even Robb/Jon age when AGOT starts.

I really hope she doesn't turn psychopath! I hope for her to understand politics and develope a realistic view on it, but she doesn't need to become a master manipulater or something.

I think Ned went to Cersi first about what he knows and told her he was telling the King.

Also on the Lady sacrifice, Sansa told her dad the truth the night before she was brought before the King what I find weird is there is no reaction from Ned ( as far as I remember ) when Sansa said she didn't remember what happened, since Ned learned it off page I wonder if Ned told Sansa to say she didn't remember not thinking Robert and Cersei would be total A holes.

Hence Ned tells Arya that Sansa can't betray Joffery even if he's wrong.

That opens a can of worms, guys. I've seen this discussion in so many threads. I say I agree with Grail King, but let's not get this discussion be started here, too, okay? :)

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I think its pretty obvious Ned told her to pretend she did not remember, after all he was right she could not go against her future husband. She needs to be able to start a new life with this guy and he needs to feel she is a loyal wife.


Ned won't have thought for a second that his BFF would allow any backlash after all they were just kids pissing about and it got out of hand. Ned underestimated Cersei's crazy streak, as he does over and over in the story.


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Sansa is nothing like Ned.

I say from all I read and comparing the two, Sansa is really her father's daughter; younger, more naive, with a feminine skin in a stage in her life that Ned could not see or didn't want to see ( hell I don't want to think wants going on with my 19 yo in college ) hence some distance between the two even though they love each other very much.

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I mostly agree. While I think Sansa is a great deal like Ned, there is of course some Catelyn in her. And yes, I think Robb thought about Jon when he decided to marry Jeyne. And while it seems clear that Sansa followed her mother's and septa's line regarding Jon, she was obviously never unkind to him. She clearly sees him as part of her family, and Jon does remember her very fondly (for example when he thinks that Sansa would have been enchanted by the landscape beyond the wall or when he remembers her telling him how to talk to girls). They never had the close bond Arya and Jon had, but they seem to have a maybe distant yet loving relationship. I never understood why some people think they would end up being enemies.

I agree.

Lyanna is always a dangerous comparison, IMO, because we don't know much about her. She is said to have been tomboyish, a great rider, not approving of Robert as a husband due to the likelihood of him cheating and having cried during Rhaegar's singing. I just don't think this is enough to form a real opinion of her.

It could be quite a turning moment for Sansa to realize that she is not the last Stark. I think that line was the first time Sansa consciously thought of Jon, her living brother and not just some distant memories of happier times.

I agree. I don't think she would be truly happy anywhere but in the North.

You have a point there. We don't really know how Ned was like in his youth, because the oldest memories he tells us about are shortly before the RR, so nothing about him being a child or even Robb/Jon age when AGOT starts.

I really hope she doesn't turn psychopath! I hope for her to understand politics and develope a realistic view on it, but she doesn't need to become a master manipulater or something.

That opens a can of worms, guys. I've seen this discussion in so many threads. I say I agree with Grail King, but let's not get this discussion be started here, too, okay? :)

Not my intent.

So I created it as a new topic.

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From what we know of Robb I think he's most like Ned then Sansa and Jon though I don't think any of them are mirror images of Ned. Jon, once he becomes Lord Commander, is withdrawn like Ned and he certainly takes Ned's view on justice and he's very respectful in a way I see Ned being. Both Sansa and Robb have hints of Catelyn's personality, look at how Robb treated Tyrion, though I think Robb was more like Ned than Sansa.



It was more like Brandon since he also wanted to attack a prince.




I've always thought Arya and Rickon were more like Brandon than Ned or even Lyanna. Lyanna had a touch of the "wolf's blood" as Ned would say but I think both Arya and Rickon have more than a touch. They are certainly the most wild members of their family.


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I've always thought Arya and Rickon were more like Brandon than Ned or even Lyanna. Lyanna had a touch of the "wolf's blood" as Ned would say but I think both Arya and Rickon have more than a touch. They are certainly the most wild members of their family.

No question there. They were always a little wild to begin with, and their separation from Winterfell, (and far too early loss of parents,) has only compounded the issue.

I think it's perfectly possible for Sansa to better refine her understanding of politics and even learn a few lessons from LF without turning into LF.

Which is I think the direction the story's headed. Jon has to learn to toughen up to be LC, and for his future role as Targ heir, and Sansa has to learn to play the game for what's ahead. It's not about them turning 'evil' its about them developing the necessary skill sets.

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I concur with Ceasar beyond the wall. Arya is what, 11 years old at the end of DWD? She can still be quite the tomboy while Lyanna was 15 or so when her romantic escapades began. Ned does not mention much about her childhood though from what we know she was very similar to Arya. I expect that once Arya reaches the same age she might fall quite hard for someone if she lives to see said age. From his own childhood the "quiet wolf" seems to greatly resemble Jon while Robb appears to have inherited Brandon's personality. Meanwhile Jon, Sansa, and Robb have more of those safe memories of home and hearth so that is what they are fighting for.


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I really like how much Sansa has changed - especially since becoming Alayne. I agree that it is Jon she is basing her bastard persona upon and I loved her wanting to be "bastard brave."



I enjoyed your post, but when it comes to parallels in the story, I think there are more between Jon and Dan. There were especially a lot of similarities in their stories in ADwD with them both learning how to rule over people that were constantly disagreeing with them.


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Remember that Lyanna was the Mystery Knight, and she saw Robert's true nature so she ran off with the prince. Arya is exactly like Lyanna in that she keeps her destiny in her own hands and makes her own choices. Imagine Lyanna having to witness her father being beheaded at the age of ten. Her choices would have followed along the same path as Arya.

Sansa is a follower not a leader so in that regard she is a bit like Ned but that is where it ends. She does not take responsibility for the events that have lead her to where she is. Every chance she has had to make the "right" choice she blows it. She is the Stark without a wolf, and it was her choice that caused Lady to die. She has never had the strength to take control of her destiny for good or bad the way Arya, Bran, and Jon have because she does not have the wolf.

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I don't think that is very fair to Sansa. The situation that she has been placed in is very different from where Arya, Bran, and Jon are. She has less of a choice in where she ends up. Like with Lady she really couldn't go against the crowned prince even if she hadn't been engaged to him. We aren't sure what went on between she and Ned before Lady's death. It's already been said but when Cersei left during the battle Sansa did assume a leadership role to calm the rest of the ladies. She isn't just a follower she just hasn't had as many opportunities to break away and make distinct choices. After Ned's death the choices she has made have been very smart, they've kept her alive. Even leaving with Petyr was the smart choice otherwise she would have ended up in a cell with Tyrion without a brother willing to risk his life to free her.


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