Thoughts on Jon and Sansa

[Mourneblade]

I don't think that is very fair to Sansa. The situation that she has been placed in is very different from where Arya, Bran, and Jon are. She has less of a choice in where she ends up. Like with Lady she really couldn't go against the crowned prince even if she hadn't been engaged to him. We aren't sure what went on between she and Ned before Lady's death. It's already been said but when Cersei left during the battle Sansa did assume a leadership role to calm the rest of the ladies. She isn't just a follower she just hasn't had as many opportunities to break away and make distinct choices. After Ned's death the choices she has made have been very smart, they've kept her alive. Even leaving with Petyr was the smart choice otherwise she would have ended up in a cell with Tyrion without a brother willing to risk his life to free her.

Arya had no problem going against the crown prince. Robb had no trouble with it. He'll even Bran no legs and baby Rickon escape Winterfell. Sansa also could have escaped with Sandor. Oh and Sansa has only survived by being a helpless pawn. She continues to dance to someone else's tune. Everything is all about her in her mind, she rarely thinks about the rest of her family, or how she is going to turn the tables on her puppeteers.

She is responsible for Lady's death, and her father's death, and she will continue to allow herself to be a pawn because her wolf is dead and the wolf inside her is dead.

[Kittykatknits]

Arya had no problem going against the crown prince. Robb had no trouble with it. He'll even Bran no legs and baby Rickon escape Winterfell. Sansa also could have escaped with Sandor. Oh and Sansa has only survived by being a helpless pawn. She continues to dance to someone else's tune. Everything is all about her in her mind, she rarely thinks about the rest of her family, or how she is going to turn the tables on her puppeteers.

She is responsible for Lady's death, and her father's death, and she will continue to allow herself to be a pawn because her wolf is dead and the wolf inside her is dead.

It's a hard distinction to make, I know, but neither Arya or Robb were prisoners and subject to being beaten by the KG whenever Joff felt like it. It's a disengenious comparison. Worse, you've apparently completely overlooked at Sansa's growing skill when it comes to manipulating Joffrey. As to Bran and Rickon, you realize they played no role in their escpae at all, right? Without help, they'd still have been prisoners of Theon and then later Ramsey. As an argument, using Bran/Rickon to point out Sansa's failings is rather weak.

I'm also surprised at just how often readers come to the conclusion that Sansa never thinks about her family even though she directly says in the text why she tries not to yet they keep coming up in her thoughts. Really, all it shows is how shallow a reading many give her character which the quoted post seems to provide a rather good example of.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Arya is like Lyanna not Cat, not only in looks but also character.

Sansa has a bit of Ned in her , probably more than the other Kids.

Very nice analysis and I agree that the part of Sansa basing on Jon Snow is great stuff.

Lyanna, from what i can gather from the text and the KotLT story, sounds like a blend between Arya and Sansa in personality. She had Arya's fire and willfulness. But she seemed to have had Sansa's romantic side. She weeps at Rhaegar's song and wants a man she chooses. (read: Not Robert) Lyanna also seemed to be very beautiful so its likely she had a more conventional taste in fashion. But also enjoyed horse riding and swordplay. Sounds like Sansa and Arya hybrid. lol

Interesting essay. Have you ever read this essay from tze? It's also about the parallels between Jon and Sansa.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72119-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-x/page__st__340#entry3550409

That post is so gr9.

Sansa is nothing like Ned.

Slanderous lies. Sansa has her father's code of honor. It just doesnt show up until she realizes whats going on around her. She has Ned's stoicism. She has Ned's sense of duty. She even has Ned's naivety. She has a cooler head than her sister. Ned was said to be the quiet, dutiful one over his brother Brandon. Meera even refers to him as the Quiet Wolf in the KotLT story. Her halting Joff's humiliation and possible murder of Dontos is something Ned would have done.

But this is about Sansa and Jon. Sansa draws upon Jon's figure a few times. Mostly as Alayne. She tries to conjure up "a bastard's courage" and uses Jon as a template for such. Even sorta thinking "What would Jon do?" She even expresses desire to see him again, which is a little odd because she always referred to him as her "half brother". Sansa is becoming more and more aware of what merits there are to observation. Jon has always been aware of this. (its one of his "super" powers) As Alayne, Sansa is putting herself as the Outsider Looking In. Jon has been doing that especially during his time with the wildlings. The only thing Sansa hasnt been doing is really thinking outside the box, or Taking The Third Option, which is a defining trait of Jon's. However, i do think she will arrive to the Third Option.....

I'm also surprised at just how often readers come to the conclusion that Sansa never thinks about her family even though she directly says in the text why she tries not to yet they keep coming up in her thoughts. Really, all it shows is how shallow a reading many give her character which the quoted post seems to provide a rather good example of.

Sansa doesnt like thinking about her family because it hurts. I think this is also why she doesnt really do a lot of self reflection, because shes probably really afraid of facing the guilt about the Lady thing, and most especially, the Ned thing. I once called this a defense mechanism and i think that is still accurate. In order to keep composure and a clear head, Sansa sorta bottles stuff up or pushes it out of her head. Better to focus on whats going on. But thoughts of the Starks waft in often when shes alone. She thought she was alone when she builds her snow castle. Unconsciously, Winterfell explodes out of her. She thinks about the snowball fights, she thinks of Bran, she thinks of Rickon, she keeps building....

Jon tries to think on what Ned or Benjen would do. Thoughts of Robb often invade his mind. Thoughts of Arya. Sansa, if i recall, thinks about her mother when seeing some of Lysa's old Tully dresses. Sansa...one time she wishes some hero will come and do something like end Slynt for good. She hopes its Robb...

Turns out, Jon did just that!

;)

[Frances Bean Corbray]

When Sansa finds out that Jon cut Slynt's head off Jon is so getting the BIGGEST. HUG. EVER.

[Florina Laufeyson]

When Sansa finds out that Jon cut Slynt's head off Jon is so getting the BIGGEST. HUG. EVER.

Complete with squee face!

[Frances Bean Corbray]

And then they'll play soccer with it. TOGETHER.

(Theon Not Invited)

[Mourneblade]

It's a hard distinction to make, I know, but neither Arya or Robb were prisoners and subject to being beaten by the KG whenever Joff felt like it. It's a disengenious comparison. Worse, you've apparently completely overlooked at Sansa's growing skill when it comes to manipulating Joffrey. As to Bran and Rickon, you realize they played no role in their escpae at all, right? Without help, they'd still have been prisoners of Theon and then later Ramsey. As an argument, using Bran/Rickon to point out Sansa's failings is rather weak.

I'm also surprised at just how often readers come to the conclusion that Sansa never thinks about her family even though she directly says in the text why she tries not to yet they keep coming up in her thoughts. Really, all it shows is how shallow a reading many give her character which the quoted post seems to provide a rather good example of.

You are right Arya never was captured and subject to beating with possibly getting killed every day on a whim....oh wait... and yet she chose to escape.... Sansa manipulating Joffery into what? not beating her as much.... that was the extent... and she totally forgot about asking about Arya when speaking to Cersei..... Sansa has shown me very little.

[Winter's Knight]

Complete with squee face!

Mr Krabbs is Stannis right?

[Sansa_Stark]

When Sansa finds out that Jon cut Slynt's head off Jon is so getting the BIGGEST. HUG. EVER.

I wonder if they will go further than hugs.

"so Sansa, turns out we're not really siblings....and you're so beautiful..."

[Florina Laufeyson]

Mr Krabbs is Stannis right?

Totally. Hes more like Plankton but yeah.

"so Sansa, turns out we're not really siblings....and you're so beautiful..."

I ship it before i ship Jon/Dany. (im serious. Im still not on board with Jon/Sansa, but ill take it way before Jon/Dany. Any day.)

[Frances Bean Corbray]

I wonder if they will go further than hugs.

"so Sansa, turns out we're not really siblings....and you're so beautiful..."

Incest? Sansa didn't live with the Lannisters that long.

Besides, she's a dead ringer for Catelyn. Catelyn, who famously told Jon "IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN YOU". Call me crazy but i think Wishing Me Dead is bit of a turn-off.

[Dreams and Prophecies]

Jon/Sansa (while i am not too fond of it) would be a "twist" for the readers and somewhat of a bittersweet ending (Sansa would get her hero after all, but not the one would expect )and since we as readers have not seen them interact with each other yet in these five books, it would certainly be interesting to see their "first" meeting. Plus the Dunk and Egg and Sansa crackpot theory with a Targaryen suitor... who knows?

But then again, R+L has to = J and known around Westeros for this to happen....

[PhoenixFlame]

Totally agree with Sansa being Ned's daughter. Too, one can't forget nurture vs. nature...it's just my opinion, but I tend to see nurture as more influential than nature. Jon and Robb both try to embody their father, but succeed in flanderizing aspects of him. For Robb it's honor and duty...would Ned have thrown away an entire war to preserve a lady's honor, when the act of marrying her would put her and a potential child in danger too? Ned could be naive but he did have a cool head...misjudging people was his big flaw.

Jon, on the other hand, seems to have --a tad pragmatically-- gone whole hog with Ned's cold, somewhat aloof side. He remembers how Ned spoke of being cool but respectful to one's soldiers. More of a wartime sentiment, perhaps, but Jon shoots himself in the foot following that aspect so closely. Too, from the nurture side, Robb was always the heir, the golden child, and gravitated more to the more knightly traits of his father, while Jon, a bastard who grew up with very different expectations, picks up more of Ned's harsher qualities.

As for Sansa, she's not power hungry but she will step into a leader position when she has to, as with Blackwater and running the Eyrie. With Littlefinger's tutelage and her experiences, sure she'll become savvier, perhaps more pragmatic, and capable of manipulation, but she's quite resilient to trauma and rather empathetic. Littlefinger can't let go of his years at Riverrun and seems like a cross between Thenardier and Richelieu...that's not Sansa's personality, so I don't see her being Milady or Rebecca de Winter.

[TNine]

You are right Arya never was captured and subject to beating with possibly getting killed every day on a whim....oh wait... and yet she chose to escape.... Sansa manipulating Joffery into what? not beating her as much.... that was the extent... and she totally forgot about asking about Arya when speaking to Cersei..... Sansa has shown me very little.

Arya was rescued by Syrio and Yoren. And she almost starves to death on the streets after getting out of the Red Keep.

I mean, Arya did escape from Harrenhall all on her lonesome, but she had a lot more resources and freedom than Sansa did. Not to mention anonymity.

[Sansa_Stark]

Jon thought Sansa looked radiant walking in AGOT in his first chapter.

What a creeper.

[Annara Snow]

I don't agree with Sansa thinking of her family, at least before she is Alayne. It is only after she becomes Alayne that she begins to think of them (at least that we can see). It is also around the same time that Jon accepts that the NW IS his family.

Then you don't remember the books very well, because she thinks of them dozens and dozens of times in her last chapter in AGOT, ACOK and ASOS. From dreaming about her father after his death, remembering his death in every chapter, worrying if her mother and Robb would also die (in her first chapter in ACOK), praying for all her living and dead family members and Stark household during the Blackwater battle, constantly trying to get back home, fantasizing about naming her future children after her dead family members, crying all alone after hearing about the RW, dreaming about being back in Winterfell with all her family the way it was before (ASOS, while she's still living miserably in King's Landing)...

If I had the time and patience, I could pull all the quotes as I did the last time someone claimed that Sansa "never thinks about her father" in an earlier thread, which was really ironic, since Sansa thought about Ned numerous times, in every (or almost) chapter. These are just the quotes about Ned that I found by looking for the word "father" in her chapters: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99775-sansas-sense-of-family/page-8#entry5143475

And I think I may not have even included that part when she thought she would marry Willas Tyrell and was fantasizing that she would name her sons Eddard, Bran and Rickon, by her dead family members (i.e. the family members she believed to be dead).

[Sansa_Stark]

And I think I may not have even included that part when she thought she would marry Willas Tyrell and was fantasizing that she would name her sons Eddard, Bran and Rickon, by her dead family members (i.e. the family members she believed to be dead).

What about Arya in this regard?

Like does she think Arya is dead or alive?

[Annara Snow]

Jon/Sansa (while i am not too fond of it) would be a "twist" for the readers and somewhat of a bittersweet ending (Sansa would get her hero after all, but not the one would expect )and since we as readers have not seen them interact with each other yet in these five books, it would certainly be interesting to see their "first" meeting. Plus the Dunk and Egg and Sansa crackpot theory with a Targaryen suitor... who knows?

But then again, R+L has to = J and known around Westeros for this to happen....

Shipping a brother and a sister (yes, they are siblings whether or not they share the same biological father) who have familial love for each other and never had a single romantic or sexual thought about each other? :huh: Makes the kind of sense that's not.

Have you heard of Westermarck effect?

"Bittersweet"? No, the word you're looking for is "absurd".

[Annara Snow]

What about Arya in this regard?

Like does she think Arya is dead or alive?

Read the post I linked to. There are several quotes where she's thinking about Arya. There are probably more, but I wasn't specifically looking for quotes about Arya when I posted it. Some of those include:

Sansa knew most of the hymns, and followed along on those she did not know as best she could. She sang along with grizzled old serving men and anxious young wives, with serving girls and soldiers, cooks and falconers, knights and knaves, squires and spit boys and nursing mothers. She sang with those inside the castle walls and those without, sang with all the city. She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall. She sang for her mother and her father, for her grandfather Lord Hoster and her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, for old drunken King Robert, for Septa Mordane and Ser Dontos and Jory Cassel and Maester Luwin, for all the brave knights and soldiers who would die today, and for the children and the wives who would mourn them, and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

That was such a sweet dream, Sansa thought drowsily. Shehad been back in Winterfell, running through the godswood with her Lady. Her father had been there, and her brothers, all of them warm and safe. If only dreaming could make it so...

She threw back the coverlets. I must be brave.Her torments would soon be ended, one way or the other. If Lady was here, I would not be afraid. Lady was dead, though; Robb, Bran, Rickon, Arya, her father, her mother, even Septa Mordane. All of them are dead but me. She was alone in the world now.

She awoke al at once, every nerve atingle. For a moment she did not remember where she was. She had dreamt that she was little, still sharing a bedchamber with her sister Arya. But it was hermaid she heard tossing in sleep, not her sister, and this was not Winterfell, but the Eyrie. And I am Alayne Stone, a bastard girl. The room was cold and black, though she was warm beneath the blankets. Dawn had not yet come. Sometimes she dreamed of Ser Ilyn Payne and woke with her heart thumping, but this dream had not been like that. Home. It was a dream of home.

(...)

She scooped up a handful of snow and squeezed it between her fingers. Heavy and wet, the snow packed easily. Sansa began to make snowballs, shaping and smoothing them until

they were round and white and perfect. She remembered a summer’s snow in Winterfell when Arya and Bran had ambushed her as she emerged from the keep one morning. They’d each had a dozen snowballs to hand, and she’d had none. Bran had been perched on the roof of the covered bridge, out of reach, but Sansa had chased Arya through the stables and around the kitchen until both of them were breathless. She might even have caught her, but she’d slipped on some ice.

Her sister came back to see if she was hurt. When she said she wasn’t, Arya hit her in the face with another snowball, but Sansa grabbed her leg and pulled her down and was rubbing snow in her hair when Jory came along and pulled them apart, laughing.

What do I want with snowballs? She looked at her sad little arsenal. There’s no one to throw them at. She let the one she was making drop from her hand. I could build a snow knight instead, she thought. Or even...

(...this is the scene where she goes on to build the snow Winterfell.)

[Winter's Knight]

What do I want with snowballs? She looked at her sad little arsenal. There’s no one to throw them at.

Oh. That smarts.