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Ned's ToJ Dream: More Than We Thought?


J. Stargaryen

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I just want to say that Justin Danford's posts are completely on point.

Thank you, I think you did some fine research here, and when I read the parallels I was shocked (which is also why I was so shocked to see peoples "meh" reactions). But a very good find on your part. I've reread only SOS, but it's readings like what you have done here that make me want to reread the whole series from the beggining. If only they weren't so long and I didn't already have an overflowing back log of books to read.

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Hey J. Star, well you have been busy lately haven't you? I think the the cross comparison of dreams in the series is a good thing. Now as you know I have done a little research into Martins use of repetition.

Here is an article on the use of repetition of language in Dance. If you have not read it before it is a good read and shows a lot of insight into Martins use of repetition..

http://www.overthinkingit.com/2011/08/17/dance-with-dragons/2/

Now I have to say I do have one problem with this theory. And that is old Nan, she is not part of the dreams and it's a separate moment. For me what Nan says is applied to Bran in the books. I have been looking at the Old tongue and trying to figure out how things might translate. On of the things I have come up with is Hodor means Horse. Though it's speculation, So you have Hodor the stable boy, his sword and the wolf. So generally I except it as foreshadowing. Not to say I am right, but that part of theory is not part of either dream.

We don't actually know what the Wood witch said to Aegon other than those 2 need to get together and the Prince will come from there line. Ned never met the wood witch that we know of. Though I think there is a chance he could of.

Martin does use mist with some repetition. Ned and Robert in chapter 12 AGOT, Robert and Ned Ch. 30 AGOT, Dany AGOT ch. 36 (mists and Time), ch 39 AGOT Ned the dream another time reference with mist, AGOT ch. 40 Cat (mists and ghosts), Kings ch 23 Jon misting and Ghost, ch 33 Kings Old Nan makes a reference about Mist being morning ghosts returning to there graves. Ch 48 Kings Dany, Mist once again used about Rhaegar "Man wife and child faded like morning mist. Ch. 49 Kings Shagga fades into the morning mist. Ch. 56 Kings Asha fades into the mist.

So just looking at this little bit seems Martin uses things like mist in rather classical styles. Both Ned and Cersei are haunted by these dreams. The mist is used to symbolize that and the past being lost to them, fading away. He uses it repeatedly in the series. Ghosts of the past, passage of time, moments lost to characters, people stepping out of their lives. It's used in both reality and dreams for mostly the same effect. But there is also visual effect and atmosphere building.

I think analyzing and comparing dreams is a great idea, one of the main connections made comes from a third character out of the dream. That same character gives you an actual description of mist.

I also find the Horse, dog and sword reference interesting, in that it may be repeated in other places in other ways. Bree, Oathkeeper and a dog. Hodor, Bran and Greywind.

I think there are things to look at there in your theory I am just not sure the Ned, Cersei prophecy connection works. At least I am struggling to see it.

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This is a bit irrational. The fact that he didn't have the story planned out has nothing to do with re-using the same words, in the same order, to describe similar circumstances. In fact, not knowing where the story is going to lead is great cause for an author to revisit his older work, and see where he/she can draw connections. A great way to draw connections is to host similar events (like, I don't know...a dream) and use similar if not identical language and parallel structure. These aren't normal moments, people. These are dreams. They exist for the purpose of allowing the author to convey to you something outside the chronological events of the narrative with perhaps implied commentary into the physiology of the character experiencing the dream. Dreams are a big deal.

Unless you mean to tell me, every-time Martin writes a dream sequence his auto-dream-writing function of the brain takes over and he starts spitting out ambiguously descriptive scenes revolving around death with emphasis on the number three probably just because his favorite baseball player was Babe Ruth . . .

Or that he is really fond of horses and dogs and swords so he just had to fit it in to the equally important and bell-ringing event of Old Nan's tale, and is absolutely not related in anyway to the guy who is still a live in the books, whose heroism has been trending up since book three, who just so happens to be the one responsible for pushing the kid who is hearing the story of the Last Hero out a window, who by the way lost the hand that did that crime and has been climbing a path of repentance ever since.

Yep Martin had no intention for any of these things, he just sits at his desk, forgets everything he has ever written, decides he'd rather not have a deeper woven significance flowing throughout what will become his legacy, and just free writes whichever of the schizo POV's pop into his head that day. Makes sense to me.

Style =/= content.

For Martin to use parrallel structure, indentical word choice, and similiar themes in these passages and not be wary of it, would be extremely heavy handed and I just can't believe it. We know how big of a LOTR fan Martin is/was. Dreams and dream premonitions are a huge deal in Tolkein. I refuse to believe Martin as not culled each and every dream/prophecy/premonition in his own work in an attempt to try and weave something bigger. He would have not repeated these things unknowingly. That would be sloppy art, specifically: sloppy art during moments where it needs to be its finest.

Many things to answer here.

First, you are saying that he revisit his previous work. This can serve by both argumentations. I mean, if he draws inspiration from himself, he could just have used the same structure unconsciously because it was already there for him to use. But for now, I would like to say about the structures that the OP showed were pretty... weak.

First, Cersei scene would only work with two or three people, and it would work best with three people since you can make someone flee to give the dread of the place. Now, if Cersei listened to the prophecy alone, it would not have too much impact for her to be in the paranoid state that we see throughout the book. She had to have some confirmation, hence the third character. Ned scene has three people for whatever the reason, but as we established, Cersei's dream has to be based on Ned and not the other way around, and Cersei dream had to have three people. Besides that, the structure is pretty common: place, how many people and what they see. It is a straightforward way to present something.

I don't see why the second quote shows similar structure and wording, sorry.

In the third quote: dream's being described as shadows and mist was done before by GRRM. We cannot associate by this quote alone. Even Melisandre's vision has "skulls turning into mist" (or something like that). And in fact, it just conveys the idea of a dream. In most dreams, only some of the things stands out.

I assume the fourth quote is there because "the eyes of death", right? I can give the OP this one, although "eyes of death" had very different meanings in the two POVs: in Ned, is the eyes of someone dying, while in Cersei POV is menacing eyes or, more especifically, someone foretelling death.

For me to say that the wording and structure are the same and not coincidental, I would like to see more "similarities". I mean, the dreams per se are entirely different, but you said yourself that content is not style. However, the lenght of Cersei's dream is some pages, while the lenght of Ned's dream is just some paragraphs. I don't see how it can be the exact same structure if even the lenght is not the same, and, in fact, there are much more differences.

Now, returning to your post. I will not say that Martin enters in his "auto-dream-writing function", because it's difficult to have an "auto-writing" function at all. But I think that yes, he has a style that can be attributed to him, and well, is how he knows how to write. And then, coincidences happen.

As for Jaime, knights just like dogs, horses and swords. It's something that would be coincidental with almost every knight in Westeros. But ok, if you want to believe that the Prince Who Was Promised companions has to do with a character in the book (and I really don't even want or believe that there will be a prince who was promised). Look at Brienne, then. Her friends are dying, she walks with Maribald's dog, and her sword is part of Ice, or shattered ice, as the sword of the prince! Or, Hodor as horse, Summer as a dog and Bran as a broken/shattered sword. (Edited)

If we start to "reach", everything can be anything.

Well, Ser Creighton explained about some of the repetitions in a beautiful way.

EDIT - Ser Creighton, I like the part of "words are wind" in the link you sent, especially since the next book will be called "Winds of Winter".

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snip

The short version is that Cersei's dream was about her interaction with prophecy and so was Ned's. Both prophesies were foretold by woods witches. The difference being we are explicitly shown that in her dream. The reason we aren't shown that in Ned's dream is that it deals with one of the bigger mysteries in the series: tPtwP.

Oh, and the reason we are explicitly shown that Cersei's dream deals with prophecy – so that we can figure out the same is true for Ned's ToJ dream.

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The short version is that Cersei's dream was about her interaction with prophecy and so was Ned's. Both prophesies were foretold by woods witches. The difference being we are explicitly shown that in her dream. The reason we aren't shown that in Ned's dream is that it deals with one of the bigger mysteries in the series: tPtwP.

Oh, and the reason we are explicitly shown that Cersei's dream deals with prophecy – so that we can figure out the same is true for Ned's ToJ dream.

And people still fail to see our point. I said that Ned's secret and Cersei's prophecies caused them much mental and emotional pain. And Jon Snow doesn't even know his life was defined by a prophecy and a promise on a dying woman's deathbed.

When he finds out, Jon won't take it well, as it shatters a central tenet of his identity as Ned's bastard son, and proves that he really has the burden of the world on his shoulders.

And Cersei's prophecy... I think her own actions to protect her children has inadvertently caused her prophecy to come true, partially in the case of Joffrey's case. I think it will be the same way with Tommen and Myrcella.

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Even though Jaime's dream on the weirwood stump isn't structurally similar the Ned's and Cersei's, It does strikes resemblance as well, and two interesting points about it: Ned and Cersei are both referenced in Jaime's dream, and Jaime's link to the last hero myth is interesting, since he was the one who defenestrated Bran, which is kind of a beginning mark on Bran's journey.


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And I mean, GRRM did not have all the story yet when he started Game of Thrones. Even he admits that when he said that he started writing Game of Thrones because he found the idea of boys finding wolves in the snow interesting - or something in this sense.

[...]

We have foreshadowings in some books happening in later books.

[...]

Not exactly. GRRM has likened his process to driving from the east coast of the US to the west coast. You know your destination, and the route you will take, you just don't know all of the events that will happen along the way. That said, how do you explain foreshadowing of future events in future books if he does not have the story mapped out in advance?

*snip

Since you're having trouble perceiving the structural similarities, perhaps this will help:

He dreamt an old dream, of three (individuals) knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. - AGoT, Eddard X (ToJ)

She dreamt an old dream, of three (individuals) girls in brown cloaks, a wattled crone, and a tent that smelled of death. - AFfC, Cersei VIII

In addition to the linguistic similarities (words) there is structural similarity of four descriptive segments, the third and fourth are related to the subjects of the dream (tower and crone) and outcomes (death) of them.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. [...]

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. - Ned

They were three in the dream, as they had been in life. Fat Jeyne Farman hung back as she always did. It was a wonder she had come this far. Melara Hetherspoon was bolder, older, and prettier, in a freckly sort of way. - Cersei

Again, linguistic tag followed by a clear parallel of subject: description of the companions

In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist. - Ned

In the dream the pavilions were shadowed, and the knights and serving men they passed were made of mist. - Cersei

Linguistic tags followed by content similarity again-- knights made of mist

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. - Ned

But in the dream her face dissolved, melting away into ribbons of grey mist until all that remained were two squinting yellow eyes, the eyes of death. - Cersei

Not only linguistic similarities, but structural (dream is ending) and symbolic (the rose petals are streaming across the sky in much the same way a ribbon of mist might)

Now, these similarities are hints to the reader of a deeper, more metaphorical parallel. As JS has laid out very clearly, we are dealing with (on the one hand) a dream about a prophecy made by a woods witch, and a dream about the result of a prophecy made by a woods witch. The fact that the Cersei dream was written much later is exactly the point-- GRRM's writing is laden with hints that continually spiral back to mysteries laid out early on. JS has also made it clear that he checked other dreams to see if this was a common device used by GRRM and found it is not. Meaning these two dreams were consciously connected by the author. From both a literary analysis as well as a writer's point of view let's be clear that writing the same words to describe a scene, using not only structural similarities but nearly identical content, does not happen by accident.

Wrt to the final passages from Cersei, I find it to be a sneaky reference by GRRM to a babe and to a Hero (who happen to be the same individual) being present in the earlier dream. The chain of connections from Jaime to Bran to (ultimately) Jon may seem tenuous until you consider the chain of events: Jaime's action led to Bran being in a place to take action to facilitate Jon realizing his destiny.

Really well done JS! :)

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He dreamt an old dream, of three (individuals) knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. - AGoT, Eddard X (ToJ)

She dreamt an old dream, of three (individuals) girls in brown cloaks, a wattled crone, and a tent that smelled of death. - AFfC, Cersei VIII

Nope, not buying it. I can't see how this phrase could be done in a different way. The dreams are old, and both dreams haunted Cersei and Ned. Besides, "dreamed a dream" is something that authors like to do, since it is a figure of speech. And I said before why Cersei's scene works only with three people.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. [...]

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. - Ned

They were three in the dream, as they had been in life. Fat Jeyne Farman hung back as she always did. It was a wonder she had come this far. Melara Hetherspoon was bolder, older, and prettier, in a freckly sort of way. - Cersei

Someone said that content =/= style, and you are comparing content, because the structure to show the companions is totally different. But anyway, if you see Ned's dream, the phrase "as they/it had been in life" appears twice, although in the first time it is not the exact same wording used for Cersei's dreams. It is just a phrase that he likes to use, like "little and less", "half a heartbeat", and so many other examples.

In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist. - Ned

In the dream the pavilions were shadowed, and the knights and serving men they passed were made of mist. - Cersei

It is is not uncommon to describe dreams in terms of shadows and mist, and it builds up the scene. And GRRM uses "mist" for many other things too, as someone told before. Again, even Melisandre's vision has "skulls turning into mist".

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. - Ned

But in the dream her face dissolved, melting away into ribbons of grey mist until all that remained were two squinting yellow eyes, the eyes of death. - Cersei

As I said before, I can give this one, although "eyes of death" is meaning two different things in both cases. And well, since both dreams haunted the characters that dreamt it, it does not mean much for their dream to end with the thing that haunted them most.

Finally, if I'm not mistaken, Benerro uses "eyes of death" when he is describing Dany too, and I don't see it connecting to those dreams just because of a repeated expression.

From both a literary analysis as well as a writer's point of view let's be clear that writing the same words to describe a scene, using not only structural similarities but nearly identical content, does not happen by accident.

It can totally happen by accident and be coincidences.

And well, I leave my questions:

1. Maggy the Frog and Quentyn the Frog, what is the meaning of this? Or the nicknames being the same is just a coincidence?

2. Why Old Nan's tale cannot be applied to Brienne? She has a dog, friends die, and her sword is literally shattered ice.

3. Why Old Nan's tale cannot be applied to Bran?

4. What does make you sure that those similarities are true and they allow just one type of interpretation? If you take them into account, why not take all the similarities and similar structures and wording that appear in the books?

And finally:

That said, how do you explain foreshadowing of future events in future books if he does not have the story mapped out in advance?

That is why I've said that the first three books are much more tied between them. GRRM knows some of the events that will happen, but much foreshadowing and prophecies happened in the first three books already. A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons had to create new foreshadowings.

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*snip

You don't have to "buy it", but you shouldn't continue to ignore the fact that these similarities are not offered in a vacuum. There is a conclusion to be made after examining the similarities which, regardless of what you're buying, do not occur in the same linguistic and structural form in the text except for these two examples.

Eta- re: your lengthy edit- when you mention foreshadowing in the first three books you fail to take into account the first part of what I said-- GRRM has always known where he is going. Just because it has ended up taking him longer to get there does not invalidate that fact.

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Meh, I think its much more likely that the similarity arises from the fact that they were written by the same author. There are a few times when GRRM characterizes things similarly. Its kind of inevitable when you have someone writing several thousand pages of prose over 20 plus years.

I wouldn't read more into it than that.

I agree, although it was a very interesting read. I do think there is something to be said about the fact that it is just written by the same author even though it's for and from different characters. One example of this that drives me crazy is the way GRRM has a few characters continually compare the description of something or someone missing and/or different to the way a tongue investigates the hole left behind after a missing tooth. He must have at least three characters do this and it drives me crazy. Right off the top of my head I do recall Cersei and Sansa both doing this and I do think there is at least one more character who does the same thing. It takes me right out of the story for a second or two............realizing that characters are thinking the exact same thing, more than once. I always notice that missing tooth and tongue comparison.

The obvious thing to me that matters here is both Ned and Cersei are dreaming of actual events that happened to both of them. The other similarity is the dreams are of events that still haunt them, and I will admit that it makes me wonder what other similarities there could be. I'm just grateful there are no teeth and tongue comparisons going on with it.

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I'm not ignoring, I'm regarding them as coincidences and this theory as "reaching".

90% of threads here are fans reaching. And you are right when you say that repetitivness crawls into authors work when taking into consideration the shear volume of pages we are dealing with here. But you fail, so hard, so, so hard to take into consideration that authors, especially GRRM like to draw nice little parallels into their work as well. So when you analyze these two dreams like the OP did or like nice Lady Gwynhyfvar showed us and if you use your head in a reasonable and logical manner the conclusion has to be that there are intentional undeniable parallels between the two. Keeping the claim that they are merely authors repetitivness is simply ignorant!

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To follow up on comparing dreams in general, in response to another thread I reread Jaime's dream when he is on the weirstump and was struck by certain similarities with dreams Jon has. Both go down to the 'depths' of the citadel they came from, both meet members of the Lannister/Stark dynasty respectively there (Tywin, Cersei, The Kings of Winter). What strikes me most however is the comparisons between these two lines;

There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. "What place is this?"

"Your place." The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who'd lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father's voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand.


I scream that I’m not a Stark, that this isn’t my place, but it’s no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream.

I don't know if this link could also be seen as significant - but it does raise the possibility that GRRM has purposefully twinned dreams together before.

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