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Ned's ToJ Dream: More Than We Thought?


J. Stargaryen

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Very good catch OP! Indeed it's pretty unlikely these fragments of dreams would be so similar just because of GRRM's writing style.



Now I'd like to ask a question about the Last Hero reference that is made here and which I find very interesting.



Cersei says Jaime has always liked swords, horses and dogs. And then you made the reference to the LH text referring to the last hero and his sword, his dog and his horse. If we then link these references with Jaime's development in the story:



- When Jaime has his weirwood dream, he sees himself and Brienne holding glowing swords (which I believe might be a reference to Lightbringer or to the general weapons used to defeat the Others, but it's not the subject here).


- And, when I've read the words "dog, sword and horse" associated with Jaime, I've instantly thought about 3 characters: dog > Sandor, Horse > Brienne (who is often compared to a horse and who Jaime saw in his dream fighting at his side), Sword >Ilyn Payne (who is currently training Jaime to use a sword with his left hand).



Now, Jaime is only linked to the last two (Brienne and Ilyn) so far, but Jaime + Brienne and the Hound are all linked by their will to protect the Stark girls (or at least Sansa). As to Payne, he is basically just following Jaime as, we have seen, his life was pretty miserable and he has nothing to go back to. So it is not that unlikely to think the hero (Jaime), the dog (Sandor), the horse (Brienne) and the sword (Payne) will end up reuniting soon enough and possibly uniting against a common enemy.



Anyway it is a bit crackpot but that's what reading this made me think :)



Thanks for the thread OP!


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Now that I think about it, Aerys II and Cersei's prophecies turned out badly for both of them. And they both were driven to madness because of the prophecies they were given.

Aerys possibly had a dragon dream that a dragon would be born out of the destruction of his House, and he misinterpreted it to be himself when in reality it means Jon.

Is there a quote for this. Could it refer to the literal destruction of the red keep? Its widely predicted cersei will go pyromaniac.

That would be the culmination of the lannister downfall and possibly the start of a new targ dynasty

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Another great post, J. Stargaryen. :cheers:

This is venturing beyond crackpottery, but I think it's interesting to note that if A+J=J+C, then both Jon is technically both Ned and Cersei's nephew.

Creates a nice parallel between the only two bloodlines known to have prophetic dreams and Jon, i.e. his is the Song of Ice and Fire.

That's a big if though.

I really think the dreams are meant to tie the events at the tower of joy to the phorphecy, not tie the bloodlines together.

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This is interesting:



He dreamt an old dream of a hovel by the sea, three dogs whimpering, a woman's tears. - ADwD, Prologue



There aren't any of the other parallels, though, other than:



"Your little one is with the gods now," the woods witch told his mother



I think it is safe to say that these dreams are related to woods witches as you suggested!


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This is interesting:

There aren't any of the other parallels, though, other than:

I think it is safe to say that these dreams are related to woods witches as you suggested!

Thanks for pointing that out.

Again, we see the same structure – three knights, three girls, three dogs – and a woods witch. Add to that the fact that plenty of people have already noted the connections between Varamyr's prologue and Jon's upcoming story. Dying, warging, second life fit for a king, etc.

Cersei's dream chapter seems to be telling us that Ned's ToJ dream has to do with prophecy, while Varamyr's looks to be foretelling one of the big steps towards Jon fulfilling that prophecy.

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Another great post, J. Stargaryen. :cheers:

This is venturing beyond crackpottery, but I think it's interesting to note that if A+J=J+C, then both Jon is technically both Ned and Cersei's nephew.

Creates a nice parallel between the only two bloodlines known to have prophetic dreams and Jon, i.e. his is the Song of Ice and Fire.

That's a big if though.

I think A+J=C&J is possible, but I lean towards the "Surprising Lannister Ancestor" that Ran said we'll find out about in the World book as being a Targaryen. If so, it'll be a female in close proximity to Egg, I think.

My guess is Daeron the Drunkard's feeble-witted daughter, but that's a discussion for another thread.

snip

This is really interesting. I wish I had something to add.

Is there a quote for this. Could it refer to the literal destruction of the red keep? Its widely predicted cersei will go pyromaniac.

That would be the culmination of the lannister downfall and possibly the start of a new targ dynasty

I think Lyse was referring to a thread from a few days ago: Link.

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Another great post, J. Stargaryen. :cheers:

This is venturing beyond crackpottery, but I think it's interesting to note that if A+J=J+C, then both Jon is technically both Ned and Cersei's nephew.

Creates a nice parallel between the only two bloodlines known to have prophetic dreams and Jon, i.e. his is the Song of Ice and Fire.

That's a big if though.

Speaking of premonition in Cersei's dreams, I've always wondered whether her nightmare before she is told of Tywin's deathdoes not foreshadow the walk of shame.

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I agree that there could be a little more to it, if that's what you're saying. Perhaps Lyanna told Ned about the prophecy during their last conversation, for example.

As for what it means, I think it's just GRRM's way of telling us that the events of the ToJ are interwoven with prophecy; i.e., Jon is tPtwP.

About the parallels between Cersei and Ned's dreams? That's awesome. It's good to know I'm not the only one who spotted this "coincidence." ;)

What's interesting is that the Others and Wights have blue eyes, and the CotF have yellow or golden eyes. So, maybe something there?

There could be more going on here than we realize, but for now I'm content to say that it's a hint that tPtwP and LH are connected, or maybe the same thing. Well, it would have to be something like the Last Hero reborn, but yeah.

Correct me if I'm wrong but summer has yellow eyes?

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I think its a perfectly valid point that is could just be GRRM repeating techniques. In any case, If they were deliberately made similar, I don't think that the purpose is the weave a connection to prophecy into Ned's dream.



Ned's a sneaky secretive devil who hides things deep in his mind and what struck me about his dream was the level of guilt and grief running through it. I want to know what his secrets are and I especially want to know what promises he broke but I accept I'm going to have to wait for the next book.

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I think its a perfectly valid point that is could just be GRRM repeating techniques. In any case, If they were deliberately made similar, I don't think that the purpose is the weave a connection to prophecy into Ned's dream.

Ned's a sneaky secretive devil who hides things deep in his mind and what struck me about his dream was the level of guilt and grief running through it. I want to know what his secrets are and I especially want to know what promises he broke but I accept I'm going to have to wait for the next book.

as to the last part, agreed. link it to the memory he has just outside the brothel, before his run-in with Jaime.

The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face.

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

He goes on to review the promise he made to Lyanna, and to make comparisons between Robert and Rhaegar. After that, Jaime appears, bent on vengeance.

So we have a Cersei/Ned scene, each reflective of prophecy, with some interesting ties.

We have a TOJ memory, and a Lyanna memory, each saturated in grief and guilt.

And we have an intriguing little reference in the OP to Jaime/Last Hero, who incidentally has a vision of his own (Lightbringer?), and turns up in the flesh just as Ned is thinking back on some family history.

ETA: thank the old gods this isn't fanfic, or we'd have a steamy, slashy love triangle on our hands.

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I think its a perfectly valid point that is could just be GRRM repeating techniques. In any case, If they were deliberately made similar, I don't think that the purpose is the weave a connection to prophecy into Ned's dream.

Ned's a sneaky secretive devil who hides things deep in his mind and what struck me about his dream was the level of guilt and grief running through it. I want to know what his secrets are and I especially want to know what promises he broke but I accept I'm going to have to wait for the next book.

If there is a repeating technique, there is a purpose behind it. Even if it wasn't done deliberately, there would be an underlying similarity that prompted the author's subconsciousness into writing in the same way. I do agree that the underlying motive of guilt is definitely there, and both Ned and Cersei are haunted by the dream, but that is still not enough to pin the similarities on. And, there is this curious reference to Maggy as woods witch, the same as GoHH, though neither really is.

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The nightfires had burned low, and as the east began to lighten the immense mass of Storm’s End emerged like a dream of stone while wisps of pale mist raced across the field, flying from the sun on wings of wind. Morning ghosts, she had heard Old Nan call them once, spirits returning to their graves.


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Oh nice catches on the parallel wording JS!



Those word patterns are clearly there for a reason. It's actually quite strange - so well picked up. Who would have expected these similarities between Ned and Cersei? They're even structured similarly.



Good idea with the prophesy. It's difficult to say for certain, but I also can't think of anything else. Definitely an idea worth thinking about.



Someone mentioned that "dreamt an old dream" is mention once more with Varamyrs POV. (and sorry i havent had time to look through all the posts to follow that)



If this is Grrm connecting Varamyr's dream to those of Cersei and Ned. Hmmm. It might simply be an emphasis on a memory that's haunted these people. Cercei's Valonquar, Ned's ToJ, Varamyr's Bump.



There's also a woods witch involved in Varamyr's dream - the witches words seem to have effected him as Maggy did Cersei.



As to a more direct binding link between all 3, I can't think of anything at the moment - although i'll give it some more thought.


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