Why does house Stark have the smallest army in the north?

[Free Northman Reborn]

this is the most stupid post i've ever read.

People followed power not winter gardens! if the starks didn't have the army strength someone would've overthrown them a long time ago. Two stark bannerman would muster an army of 7000-8000 and go on and besiege winterfell in the spring. Surely winterfell can't stand siege for five years?

Agreed. The Starks had to be very powerful lords in their own right.

[Lord Warwyck]

Nobody seems to factoring in the human sacrifices that the Stark have to perform and it's toll on the population. It's not like in the old days, were a human sacrifice to the heart tree now and then would suffice, now it's seven sacrifices at a time because of the new sept at WF. Every seven days! That pretty much a death a day, all year long.

Also the money thing, you guys need to consider that paying for all those fashionable dresses for Catelyn and Sansa are a considerable expenditure, plus the jewels. All luxury items, imported from afar, new rounds every half-year(to keep in fashion), plus all the lemons imported from Dorne for Sansa's diet. There also the bribes to keep the locals Lords from building warships. It's not cheap to pay for all this! Poor Ned, these southerner women really are high maintenance(he really should've had more sympathy for Jorah's situation)!

umber and karstark can field larger armies because ned's women buys a lot jewelry? seriously man....

The starks rule directly over a large land which has many landed knights and warriors( men at arms, spearmen, bowmen, swordsmen, axemen).

A stark calls this army and they all come with their own equipment, they are obliged to do so or else they'll be thrown off their lands. And furthermore there's promise of gold and glory

[The hairy bear]

Real history is full of examples of kings poorer than their vassals, sovereigns that had the formal titles but no real power to back the collecting of taxes, or overlords that were chosen as a consensus to act as arbiters due to their prestige and not their strength.

If you find some info from the novels that contradicts your preconceived notion of how Westeros or the North should be, perhaps you should challenge your preconceptions, instead of accusing the author of erring

[SeanF]

Real history is full of examples of kings poorer than their vassals, sovereigns that had the formal titles but no real power to back the collecting of taxes, or overlords that were chosen as a consensus to act as arbiters due to their prestige and not their strength.

If you find some info from the novels that contradicts your preconceived notion of how Westeros or the North should be, perhaps you should challenge your preconceptions, instead of accusing the author of erring

Compare John of Gaunt and Richard II. John's income as Duke of Lancaster ranged from £11-18,000 a year. A fabulous sum for those days. Richard II's normal income was £40-50,000 a year. But, Richard had to finance his entire government out of that. John only had to finance the government of the Duchy of Lancaster. So, John had far more ready cash than his nephew, and often leant him money.

The Starks are almost Kings. They have a huge amount of autonomy in the North. But, that means they have the same degree of responsibility as Kings, and that means they have to spend lots of money.

[Lord Warwyck]

May i remind you that each lord looks after his own lands?

Furthermore starks have been kings for 6000 years and have defeated the boltons twice and other rebellions. they had to do this with their own muscle not hired or else they would've been wiped out long ago.

[Pecan]

umber and karstark can field larger armies because ned's women buys a lot jewelry? seriously man....

The starks rule directly over a large land which has many landed knights and warriors( men at arms, spearmen, bowmen, swordsmen, axemen).

A stark calls this army and they all come with their own equipment, they are obliged to do so or else they'll be thrown off their lands. And furthermore there's promise of gold and glory

I think Djinn was making a funny.

[MasterJack]

I think the area around winterfell(or south/center North) has the most farms/farmers, and it is more difficult to recruit busy farmer that have to feed all the north and his army than recruiting lazy ass smallfolks with no job or with useless jobs in White Harbor or Barrowtown

[David C. Hunter]

this is the most stupid post i've ever read.

People followed power not winter gardens! if the starks didn't have the army strength someone would've overthrown them a long time ago. Two stark bannerman would muster an army of 7000-8000 and go on and besiege winterfell in the spring. Surely winterfell can't stand siege for five years?

I think Ned Stark said you need something like 10x the numbers of Winterfell to overthrow it. If the starks had 3,000 men, then you would need 30,000 to beat them

[littleRickon]

what about the banners?

I thought that that would have come up by now. Sadly, I don't remember too well what the textual references are in that respect.

We see several times that certain castles or troops show their liege lord's banner and superimposed on that the Stark direwolf. We also sometimes see the direwolf flying alone, indicating actual Stark troops (one tower in Moat Cailin comes to mind).

We also know that Ned somewhat stupidly depleted his very own forces by sending his household guards (= Stark men) to join the gold cloaks and on the Dondarrion mission, where, IIRC, they fly the direwolf alone.

So, there were actual Stark troops, and I hope people remember more instances of such sightings. I think the notion that Starks didn't have any kind of own troops and solely depended on their bannermen is out the window. Question remains, how many were there.

Looking at other houses it seems also that Lannisters and Tyrells field their very own troops in large numbers, so Lords Paramounts are definitely not required by the Iron throne to not have any forces.

[The hairy bear]

Furthermore starks have been kings for 6000 years and have defeated the boltons twice and other rebellions. they had to do this with their own muscle not hired or else they would've been wiped out long ago.

You have no idea. All we know is that a thousand years ago some Karlon Stark put the Boltons down, but why do you assume that he did it with his own muscle? They could have had the help of many other houses of the North. When you have a rebel lord, the normal thing to do is to ask for the help of your other lords.

Besides, the relative strength of House Stark and House Bolton a thousand years ago can change a lot in so much time.

The Holy Roman Empire at the 11th century is a good example of how the emperors were much weaker than some of their vassals, had no army of their own, and couldn't tax. And still, Charlemage had easily defeated the Saxons, the Bavarians and the Lombards some thousand years ago!

From the history book "The Making of Europe":

When France's longest-lasting line of kings, the Capetians, replaced the Carolingians in 987, kings were poorer and weaker than their nobles. Althouhg in theory the kingdom of the Capetians kings consisted of most of the lands of modern-day France, their income derived principally from the region around Paris, which formed the royal domain. The rest of their kingdom was parceled out to the great lords who were their vassals.

In France and England, kings launched military campaigns more easily than they managed to raise regular funds from their subjects. (...) Kings expected financial support from their vassals, but the amounts set by long-standing custom were tiny in comparison to the royal fiscal needs.

When Eleanor, the heiress of the Duke of Aquitaine, married the heir to the French throne in 1137, the land she brought to the marriage more than doubled the size of the kingdom.

[Free Northman Reborn]

what about the banners?

I thought that that would have come up by now. Sadly, I don't remember too well what the textual references are in that respect.

We see several times that certain castles or troops show their liege lord's banner and superimposed on that the Stark direwolf. We also sometimes see the direwolf flying alone, indicating actual Stark troops (one tower in Moat Cailin comes to mind).

We also know that Ned somewhat stupidly depleted his very own forces by sending his household guards (= Stark men) to join the gold cloaks and on the Dondarrion mission, where, IIRC, they fly the direwolf alone.

So, there were actual Stark troops, and I hope people remember more instances of such sightings. I think the notion that Starks didn't have any kind of own troops and solely depended on their bannermen is out the window. Question remains, how many were there.

Looking at other houses it seems also that Lannisters and Tyrells field their very own troops in large numbers, so Lords Paramounts are definitely not required by the Iron throne to not have any forces.

Excellent point.

I considered this yesterday, but don't have my books with me so couldn't recall the exact references to direct Stark troops.

This issue really boils down to this: Who do the petty lords, holdfast masters and landed "lancers" (equivalent of knights in the North) within a 150 mile radius around Winterfell owe direct fealty to? The closest major seat of power for these people is Winterfell.

Therefore, it would be logical to assume that they are direct Stark troops, rather than Hornwood or Bolton or Dustin troops.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Excellent point.

I considered this yesterday, but don't have my books with me so couldn't recall the exact references to direct Stark troops.

This issue really boils down to this: Who do the petty lords, holdfast masters and landed "lancers" (equivalent of knights in the North) within a 150 mile radius around Winterfell owe direct fealty to? The closest major seat of power for these people is Winterfell.

Therefore, it would be logical to assume that they are direct Stark troops, rather than Hornwood or Bolton or Dustin troops.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/c/cd/The_North2.jpg

The closest petty lord to Winterfell is House Cerwyn to the south. The Wolfswood belongs to Deepwood Motte and as such the various towns within it are levied by the Glovers. To the north of Winterfell there is effectively nothing until you reach the Mountain Clans (think Brans journey) bar farmers such as the miller whose family Theon has killed. To the east, where that river is, again there is effectively very little until you hit land that is divided between Hornwood, Bolton, and Manderly. Winterfell itself really rules directly over very little land comparable to the Cerwyns or Torrhens square, and as far as I can recall Winterfell rules over only a single town/village (the one just outside its walls) which is why Winterfell itself has a very small levy. The major lords tend to rule over large areas of land, like the Boltons control the Lonely Hills, Manderlys control from the White Knife to the Ramsgate, Dustins/Ryswells control the Borrowlands, Rills, and Stoney Shore, the Glovers control the Wolfswood etc. When you actually have a legitimate look at the map you can see Winterfell doesn't have a lot of territory under its direct control (instead the closest land is controlled by the Cerwyns and the Tallharts) and I think it's very accurate that the Starks have a small personal levy.

[Free Northman Reborn]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/c/cd/The_North2.jpg

The closest petty lord to Winterfell is House Cerwyn to the south. The Wolfswood belongs to Deepwood Motte and as such the various towns within it are levied by the Glovers. To the north of Winterfell there is effectively nothing until you reach the Mountain Clans (think Brans journey) bar farmers such as the miller whose family Theon has killed. To the east, where that river is, again there is effectively very little until you hit land that is divided between Hornwood, Bolton, and Manderly. Winterfell itself really rules directly over very little land comparable to the Cerwyns or Torrhens square, and as far as I can recall Winterfell rules over only a single town/village (the one just outside its walls) which is why Winterfell itself has a very small levy. The major lords tend to rule over large areas of land, like the Boltons control the Lonely Hills, Manderlys control from the White Knife to the Ramsgate, Dustins/Ryswells control the Borrowlands, Rills, and Stoney Shore, the Glovers control the Wolfswood etc. When you actually have a legitimate look at the map you can see Winterfell doesn't have a lot of territory under its direct control (instead the closest land is controlled by the Cerwyns and the Tallharts) and I think it's very accurate that the Starks have a small personal levy.

I disagree with your interpretation.

Why on earth would a Wolfswood crofter 3 days ride from Winterfell fall under the rule of Deepwood Motte, located two weeks ride away?

Winterfell likely directly rules the entire central region between the Mountain Clans to the Northwest, the Boltons to the Northeast, the Hornwoods to the East, the Manderlys to the Southeast, the Dustins to the South, the Tallharts to the Southwest and the Glovers to the West.

A 300 mile diameter zone that is closer to Winterfell than to any of these other major strongholds. And with major natural barriers in many places.

[Sansa_Stark]

So wait, the North has a harder time gathering a larger army because its size right?

And that's why Robb only went south with so little?

[SeanF]

So wait, the North has a harder time gathering a larger army because its size right?

And that's why Robb only went south with so little?

Why do you say he only went South with so little? 18,000 is a large army when you're operating hundreds of miles away from home.

When Edward III invaded Normandy, for example, he didn't take every English fighting man with him. He couldn't have afforded to, and in the North, large forces were kept behind to fight the Scots. Garrisons remained behind in Wales, Ireland, Brittany, and Gascony.

[Sansa_Stark]

Why do you say he only went South with so little? 18,000 is a large army when you're operating hundreds of miles away from home.

When Edward III invaded Normandy, for example, he didn't take every English fighting man with him. He couldn't have afforded to, and in the North, large forces were kept behind to fight the Scots. Garrisons remained behind in Wales, Ireland, Brittany, and Gascony.

Compared to what the North can put out.

18000 is large but the north has a lot more men.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

I disagree with your interpretation.

Why on earth would a Wolfswood crofter 3 days ride from Winterfell fall under the rule of Deepwood Motte, located two weeks ride away?

Winterfell likely directly rules the entire central region between the Mountain Clans to the Northwest, the Boltons to the Northeast, the Hornwoods to the East, the Manderlys to the Southeast, the Dustins to the South, the Tallharts to the Southwest and the Glovers to the West.

A 300 mile diameter zone that is closer to Winterfell than to any of these other major strongholds. And with major natural barriers in many places.

Because thats who the land belongs to. Its in the books. The Wolfswood in its entirety is controlled by the Glovers. Thats just the way it is. You may not like it but its fact. Winterfell directly rules over diddly, and what it does rule over has almost no town worth noting in the books. Ergo, a small levy makes perfect sense. Theres nothing more to it.

[SeanF]

Compared to what the North can put out.

18000 is large but the north has a lot more men.

But, no one would lead all their men on an external expedition (or could afford to). 60,000 men fought at the Battle of Towton, but the English army in France never numbered more than 15,000 in total.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Because thats who the land belongs to. Its in the books. The Wolfswood in its entirety is controlled by the Glovers. Thats just the way it is. You may not like it but its fact. Winterfell directly rules over diddly, and what it does rule over has almost no town worth noting in the books. Ergo, a small levy makes perfect sense. Theres nothing more to it.

Please be so kind as to provide the quote where this is stated in the books?

[SeanF]

Because thats who the land belongs to. Its in the books. The Wolfswood in its entirety is controlled by the Glovers. Thats just the way it is. You may not like it but its fact. Winterfell directly rules over diddly, and what it does rule over has almost no town worth noting in the books. Ergo, a small levy makes perfect sense. Theres nothing more to it.

In all probability, the Starks have domain lands all over the North. Large medieval landholdings were rarely contiguous.