Real Heros vs ASOIAF Heros

[jet199]

Seeing as we are talking about psychopaths today I thought we could also examine the other end of the spectrum.

I attended a screenwritng talk a while back by Kira-Anne Pelican about how we can use studies of real life heroes (such as this one) to make our own heroic characters more realistic. It was also related to the redemption arch, as a lot of people aren't born heroes, which I thought was interesting as when we talk about redemption it tends to be what a character needs to do to make up for their crimes whilst in a novel, where we see their thoughts, changes in how a character thinks are just and important.

Real heroes were defined as people who give a lot back to their communities and promote the well being of future generations. So while heroes may include people who jump into burning buildings to save people it is not just them.

There were certain characteristics which were found to be far more common in heroic people than in the general population.

1. Early advantage

not necessarily being born rich, it might be that just one person supported you but you see yourself as advantaged because of that.

2. The suffering of other

Usually sensitive to the suffering of others, not just people close to you and not just humans.

3. Strong belief system

Strong moral beliefs either from upbringing or self determined.

4. Redemptive sequences

Seeing life as a series of redemptive sequences e.g. good comes out of bad, a set back leads to better opportunities.

5. Power vs love

Seeing life as a conflict between power/freedom vs love/intimacy.

(There was a slight difference in the sexes with men more likely to chase power and freedom when they were younger but changing to look for love/intamacy when they reached middle-age whilst in women slightly more were the opposite way round.)

6. Future Growth

Putting in place a positive legacy

Now I am going to try apply it to some characters. I think most of the younger characters have yet to become fully fledged heroes yet but feel free to disagree.

Jon is pretty close to becoming a hero.

1. Has the advantage of being bought up as a lord's son but does he recognise the advantage he had? He certainly seems to be less upset about being a bastard.

2. We see this in AGOT when he speaks against killing the direwolves and protects Sam

3. He tries to stick to the moral code he learnt from Ned and returns to the Night's Watch when he could have stayed with the wildlings.

4. He tries to make the best out of a situation, such as sorting the wall out after the wildings attacked and Stannis made his demands and marrying off Alys Karstark when she turned up but he can also be melancholic.

5. Jon actually has a more of a feminine arch, first he wants love and friendship but in ADWD he realises he needs power.

6. Jon is trying to create a new future for the wildings and save the world from the others.

Dany has some traits but is held back by the fact

1. Has the advantage of being bought but rich lord who treated her as a princess and she still sees that as an advantage even thought her life afterwards was harsh.

2. Dany tries to protect women from rape and frees slaves.

3. Dany is lacking in a strong moral belief system. She was never taught an honour code so she is having to invent her own morality from her life experience.

4. She has some, the death of her husband and son lead to the birth of her dragons, but because she never looks back I am not sure she sees her life in this way.

5. I think at the beginning Dany took love because she though she couldn't get power. Once she knew she could get power for herself she has always put that before love. I wonder it her arch may lead to her realising she needs love which would mean her arch is more masculine.

6. She is trying to change the world for the better but she undermines herself due to number 3.

Stannis is interesting

1. May not have been the most popular kid, and moans about it, but was a noble and a favourite of his maester and recognises this as an advantage.

2. Proudwing

3. Very strong moral belief system

4. Defeat at Blackwater leads him to the real fight at the wall, treasons show him who his real friends are and who he can trust

5. He was after power to get love now he is after love to get power. I don't know where he will go from their.

6. He is trying to establish a new dynasty and his "we will make new lords" comment makes me think he plans to change the system as well.

People are always surprised when they first come to the forum about how popular Stannis is. I think his popularity is in part due to the fact that he is one of the most realistic heros. Also he has almost reached the status of hero while some of the more major character are children so they are still learing. I think Ned will probably fit quite well as well.

As for redemption lets try it with post-Reek Theon.

1. Starts to recognise that his time with the Starks was an advantage.

2. Saves Jeyne

3. Is starting to work out what the right thing to do is rather than just reacting or doing what Reek would do.

4. This is going to be hard after Ramsay but he sees his being taken away from his family as having a positive outcome and his new lack of pride as a strength.

5. He was after love and respect now he is more concerned about freedom.

6. He wants to fight but doesn't have any long term plans. This is the only think we haven't started to see yet. I think his redemption will come when he contributes something either to sorting out the ironborn or the war for dawn.

I don't have time to do any more so if someone can have a look at the Lannisters and some of the of the major characters that would be fun.

If you would like to contest any of my points go ahead but I may not be able to argue much about the research as it is not mine and I have just written it up from the notes I made.

[The Wolves]

I liked your post but I don't think there are any heroes in ASOIAF, even Jon who is my favorite character is someone who I wouldn't put into a hero category.

I think some characters have done some heroic acts such as Catelyn, Ned, Davos, Jon, Arya, Sansa, etc...... but I feel something is missing from the story to make anybody a hero and I don't really care who turns out to be AA or TPTWP or who saves the world it's going to take a lot for me to see a character as a hero in this story.

[Darksnider05]

I liked your post but I don't think there are any heroes in ASOIAF, even Jon who is my favorite character is someone who I wouldn't put into a hero category.

I think some characters have done some heroic acts such as Catelyn, Ned, Davos, Jon, Arya, Sansa, etc...... but I feel something is missing from the story to make anybody a hero and I don't really care who turns out to be AA or TPTWP or who saves the world it's going to take a lot for me to see a character as a hero in this story.

Your going to have to give some examples for Catelyn and Sansa committing heroic acts. I'd like to hear those and what exactly they entail.

Catelyn sorta saved Brienne I guess and protected Bran but what else?

[jet199]

I liked your post but I don't think there are any heroes in ASOIAF, even Jon who is my favorite character is someone who I wouldn't put into a hero category.

I think some characters have done some heroic acts such as Catelyn, Ned, Davos, Jon, Arya, Sansa, etc...... but I feel something is missing from the story to make anybody a hero and I don't really care who turns out to be AA or TPTWP or who saves the world it's going to take a lot for me to see a character as a hero in this story.

I think you are confusing hero with "good guy". In writing a hero is usual just the main character or the character who goes on the biggest journey. Here a hero is defined as some who is far more altruistic than the average person but they don't have to be all good. Arya does many altruistic things but most people would consider her to be a dark grey character. Having a quick look at the traits Arya has three (1, 2 and 3) very strongly and possibly two more (4 and 5).

[Red Warg]

Barristan for rescuing Aerys and many other deeds, he's the only hero flying around at the min IMO.

You could argue Jamie is aswell for stopping Aerys from burning KL but lets not get into that :D

[dragonsrule]

Barristan for rescuing Aerys and many other deeds, he's the only hero flying around at the min IMO.

You could argue Jamie is aswell for stopping Aerys from burning KL but lets not get into that :D

I would say Syrio for saving Arya when he had no obligation to her, no oath etc.

[jet199]

Barristan for rescuing Aerys and many other deeds, he's the only hero flying around at the min IMO.

You could argue Jamie is aswell for stopping Aerys from burning KL but lets not get into that :D

Barristan

1. brought up as a noble and recognised as talent by the royal family at a young age

2. saves Dontos Hollard from execution, rescued various people who it was not part of his job to protect

3. he is Mr Chivalry

4. sees being sacked from the king's guard as leading him to his higher purpose

5. gave up the power he could have, had as a lord in Westeros, to serve a monarch he cared about

6. training new knights and trying to stabilise Meereen.

Barristan fits the real hero traits very well.

Jaime

1. comes from the richest family in Westeros and had the best training available

2. saves Brienne, is starting to think about righting wrongs, cares about Tyrion when his father encourages him not to

3. not yet, he is in the process of working out what is right and wrong

4. he hasn't yet found much positive in what has happened to him but may see it as a learning experience

5. lived for love but now wants power so he can make changes

6. trying to forge peace in the Riverlands and save the Stark girls

Jaime still has a way to go before he becomes a real hero. Mainly he needs to work out his moral code and realise how much he has grown due to his problems.

We don't really know enough about Syrio to look at all the traits but he certainly has 2, 3 ,4 and 6.

[Maester Pedant]

Dany's aversion to slavery may be indicative of a moral code.

[Roddy the Ruin]

Jaime saved thousands upon thousands of lives so he is a hero in my book. Then he pushed Bran out a window and hunted Arya and my brain got all confuzzled.

[Queen of Whores]

Easily Ser Duncan the Tall. Bashing a Targaryen prince (who was also a vicious asshole) just to help a girl he barely knew. I've only read The Hedge Knight, so I don't know what he will do later, but that is pretty damn selfless and heroic, if incredibly stupid to ones own wellbeing.

[jet199]

Dany and Jaime both suffer for their lack of moral code not because you have to be a black and white thinker but because having morals makes you stop and think about the best course of action rather than just reacting to a situation. They can do amazingly good, heroic thinks one minute but something terrible the next because, in the past, they have mostly just reacted to the situation they were in. However they are both working their moral code out at the moment so in the next book they may fit the traits better.

Dunk

1. Looked after by the old man

2. Protects Tanselle, kind to animals, cares about Wat, Wat and Wat and Quentyn Ball

3. Has a sense strong of justice

4. not sure about this one, seems pretty positive about his life

5. Has freedom and is looking for love at the moment

6. Trying to make sure a prince does not grow up like the rest of his family

Dunk fits the traits quite well but there is still a little room for him to become more heroic as the stories go on.

[The One Armed Smith]

Erm... I don't what you got from the books, but I learned one thing

In the WOIAF there is no good in evil everything is grey.

Now a quote

"The world isn't split up into good people and death eaters. What matters is the path you CHOSE to act on"

Remus J Lupin

Werwolf of badassery

[jet199]

Erm... I don't what you got from the books, but I learned one thing

In the WOIAF there is no good in evil everything is grey.

Now a quote

"The world isn't split up into good people and death eaters. What matters is the path you CHOSE to act on"

Remus J Lupin

Werwolf of badassery

As I said above I am not talking about good guys when I talk about heroes.

[voodooqueen126]

Would it not be better to look at real life heroes, such as Winston Churchill or John Monash, or Golda Meir... None of them were the way the OP described (I think people who act like the OP are unlikely to become heroes, because no one follows a milksop), but they certainly achieved greatness for their countries.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Stannis is interesting

1. May not have been the most popular kid, and moans about it, but was a noble and a favourite of his maester and recognises this as an advantage.

2. Proudwing

3. Very strong moral belief system

4. Defeat at Blackwater leads him to the real fight at the wall, treasons show him who his real friends are and who he can trust

5. He was after power to get love now he is after love to get power. I don't know where he will go from their.

6. He is trying to establish a new dynasty and his "we will make new lords" comment makes me think he plans to change the system as well.

People are always surprised when they first come to the forum about how popular Stannis is. I think his popularity is in part due to the fact that he is one of the most realistic heros. Also he has almost reached the status of hero while some of the more major character are children so they are still learing. I think Ned will probably fit quite well as well.

Nice Viewpoint. :agree:

[Roddy the Ruin]

I think Jon and Dany will be the only recognized "heroes" at the end of the series. Jon being the only one that is alive at the end.

Jon= Lives as a hero

Dany= Dies a hero

Bran= Unrecognized and lives on as a tree

Jaime= Dies but is not only unrecognized as a hero for stopping the Wildfire Plot 2.0, but is universally abhorred as a Kingslayer, Queenslayer, and Kinslayer.

[jet199]

Would it not be better to look at real life heroes, such as Winston Churchill or John Monash, or Golda Meir... None of them were the way the OP described (I think people who act like the OP are unlikely to become heroes, because no one follows a milksop), but they certainly achieved greatness for their countries.

Winston Churchill

1. raised as an aristocrat in a rich family

2. various political actions to help ordinary people

3. "A man does what he must - in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and pressures - and that is the basis of all human morality."

4. "Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm."

5. "My most brilliant achievement was my ability to be able to persuade my wife to marry me." Love wins over power.

6. Trying to win the war and helping to prepare relations after the war.

I think you are focusing more on actions rather that personality traits. The things you think might make someone a milksop are actually necessary for people to act heroically.

1. Early advantage - you need to realise you had advantage to stop you moping about and feeling sorry for yourself

2. The suffering of other - if you don't care about others you only act in self-interest

3. Strong belief system - Means you think about your actions and are prepared to do things which may go against common sense to do the "right" thing

4. Redemptive sequences - if you have the attitude that good things come form bad then you are prepared to put up with hardship for a long term goal and have confidence to keep trying

5. Power vs love - Both power and love are interactions with other people so if either of these are your main concern then you are more likely to take action rather than procrastinate or avoid doing anything

6. Future Growth - trying to change the world rather than just accept things as they are.

I don't know why any of these traits would make someone a milksop.