Lord Karstark Killing Catelyn

[Minsc]

Robb showed weakness when he out right pardoned Cat for freeing Jamie. By that logic I'm pretty sure Karstark felt he would be pardoned as well for doing something similar

Robb didn't out right pardoned Catelyn for freeing Jaime, nor was Karstark's actions any what similar to Catelyn's actions.

[TheMysteriousOne]

And that is your opinion.

Lol, I love your sense of morality. In your opinion, Cat is an evil bitch for giving Jon cold looks, yet you like Daemon Velaryon, despite Blood and Cheese. You hate Dany for killing the 163 slavers (which, admittedly, was not morally correct), yet you applaud Rickard's actions.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Robb showed weakness when he out right pardoned Cat for freeing Jamie. By that logic I'm pretty sure Karstark felt he would be pardoned as well for doing something similar

He didn't just showed weakness, he hadn't reacted to high treason.

[sifth]

Robb didn't out right pardoned Catelyn for freeing Jaime, nor was Karstark's actions any what similar to Catelyn's actions.

ok, when does Robb punish Cat for freeing Jamie? Remember she was locked up by her own men before Robb returned.

Freeing a prisoner and killing a prisoner are similar, the only difference is freeing a prisoner can in someways be viewed as worse, seeing as how dangerous Jamie was on the battlefield

[Minsc]

ok, when does Robb punish Cat for free Jamie? Remember she was locked up by her own men before Robb returned.

Freeing a prisoner and killing a prisoner are similar, the only difference is freeing a prisoner can in someways be viewed as worse, seeing as how dangerous Jamie was on the battlefield

After Edmure's wedding, Catelyn was supposed to be sent to Seaguard where she would be under the equivalent of House Arrest.

No, they are not even close in how one is releasing someone while the other is the unlawful murder of another two individuals and that is including the Tully guards that Karstark murdered along with his ordering his men to desert.

[SeanF]

Robb betrayed Walder when he married Jeyne, Walder had no reason to go and tell him that he was Tywin's ally anymore. The moment Robb betrayed his vow broke their alliance, which was Robb marrying Walder's daughter not Edmure. The moment between Robb's betrayal and the negotiations Walder was free to do whatever he wanted.

You do know that Karstark killed the hostages after and because Catelyn freed Jaime right? So it happened because of Catelyn's actions.

Walder negotiated a fresh agreement with Robb, whereby Edmure would marry Roslin. Edmure was Walder's liege lord, and so he was being done high honour. Robb and Edmure fulfilled their end of the bargain. Walder betrayed his end of the bargain. His behaviour, in murdering wedding guests, is obnoxious both to us, and in-universe.

Karstark's decision to murder prisoners was his and his alone. Catelyn did not compel him to murder prisoners. Her behaviour gave Karstark a pretext for his own behaviour. It did not cause it.

[sifth]

After Edmure's wedding, Catelyn was supposed to be sent to Seaguard where she would be under the equivalent of House Arrest.

No, they are not even close in how one is releasing someone while the other is the unlawful murder of another two individuals and that is including the Tully guards that Karstark murdered along with his ordering his men to desert.

Right and assuming the trade was made and Sansa was returned safely Jamie wouldn't have harmed anyone in Robb's army to get revenge. Ohh, sure Cat made him say an oath that he wouldn't, but an oath made at sword point by a man with shit for honor pretty much says it all. Jamie would have gathered another force and attacked the North at some point.

Wow, Cat would of had to been sent to Sea Guard, talk about a light punishment for letting the most dangerous Lannister warrior back on the battlefield. I'm pretty sure if anyone other than Cat pulled a move like that Robb would have killed them

[Minsc]

Right and assuming the trade was made and Sansa was returned safely Jamie wouldn't have harmed anyone in Robb's army to get revenge. Ohh, sure Cat made him say an oath that he wouldn't, but an oath made at sword point by a man with shit for honor pretty much says it all. Jamie would have gathered another force and attacked the North at some point.

Not relevant, in how killing someone(along with some of your allies) is always worse just releasing someone.

Wow, Cat would of had to been sent to Sea Guard, talk about a light punishment for letting the most dangerous Lannister warrior back on the battlefield. I'm pretty sure if anyone other than Cat pulled a move like that Robb would have killed them

That doesn't negate that there was a punishment, moreover Jaime was Robb's prisoner thus the decision was entirely up to him.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Walder negotiated a fresh agreement with Robb, whereby Edmure would marry Roslin. Edmure was Walder's liege lord, and so he was being done high honour. Robb and Edmure fulfilled their end of the bargain. Walder betrayed his end of the bargain. His behaviour, in murdering wedding guests, is obnoxious both to us, and in-universe.

After Robb broke his vows and before the agreement, which was just a joke for the Freys, Walder made an alliance with Tywin. I see no reason to broke his alliance with Tywin, which was much more profitable that Robb's, to accept Robb's leftover. So no, he had no reason not to react to Robb's betrayal.

Karstark's decision to murder prisoners was his and his alone. Catelyn did not compel him to murder prisoners. Her behaviour gave Karstark a pretext for his own behaviour. It did not cause it.

She did. The moment she freed Jaime she made them to react. Cat's treason made him to take revenge since she took away his only chance for justice.

[SeanF]

ok, when does Robb punish Cat for freeing Jamie? Remember she was locked up by her own men before Robb returned.

Freeing a prisoner and killing a prisoner are similar, the only difference is freeing a prisoner can in someways be viewed as worse, seeing as how dangerous Jamie was on the battlefield

Catelyn was guilty of treason. However, it was Robb's decision, and his alone, to determine what punishment was appropriate. In the event, he decided that house arrest in Seagard was the appropriate punishment.

Karstark was guilty of murder and mutiny, in addition to treason. Therefore, he was executed. Murdering prisoners, and allied soldiers, is a far worse crime than freeing a prisoner.

[Minsc]

After Robb broke his vows and before the agreement, which was just a joke for the Freys, Walder made an alliance with Tywin. I see no reason to broke his alliance with Tywin, which was much more profitable that Robb's, to accept Robb's leftover. So no, he had no reason not to react to Robb's betrayal.

Then he shouldn't have accepted Edmure as an alternative and pretended everything was well between the two.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Catelyn was guilty of treason. However, it was Robb's decision, and his alone, to determine what punishment was appropriate. In the event, he decided that house arrest in Seagard was the appropriate punishment.

Karstark was guilty of murder and mutiny, in addition to treason. Therefore, he was executed. Murdering prisoners, and allied soldiers, is a far worse crime than freeing a prisoner.

Because the appropriate punishment for treason in Westeros and in real world is to stay in a 5* hotel. If that's the case Rickard should be placed at house arrest too.

I see, murder is worse than high treason, worse than allowing the only valuabe hostage you have to walk free.

:bs:

[Minsc]

Because the appropriate punishment for treason in Westeros and in real world is to stay in a 5* hotel. If that's the case Rickard should be placed at house arrest too.

I see, murder is worse than high treason, worse than allowing the only valuabe hostage you have to walk free.

:bs:

Karstark committed high treason just the same alongside murder of both two of Robb's prisoners and some of Edmure's men.

[sifth]

Not relevant, in how killing someone(along with some of your allies) is always worse just releasing someone.

That doesn't negate that there was a punishment, moreover Jaime was Robb's prisoner thus the decision was entirely up to him.

fine, he planned to give Cat a very light punishment for committing a capital crime. pretty sure that would piss quite a few people off

just imagine how much damage freeing Jamie would have caused if not for the RW and Jamie losing his arm, but events impossible to predict at the time

[Jon's Queen Consort]

fine, he planned to give Cat a very light punishment for committing a capital crime. pretty sure that would piss quite a few people off

just imagine how much damage freeing Jamie would have caused if not for the RW and Jamie losing his arm, but events impossible to predict at the time

Without Jaime Robb had nothing. He had lost the only advantage he had.

[SeanF]

After Robb broke his vows and before the agreement, which was just a joke for the Freys, Walder made an alliance with Tywin. I see no reason to broke his alliance with Tywin, which was much more profitable that Robb's, to accept Robb's leftover. So no, he had no reason not to react to Robb's betrayal.

She did. The moment she freed Jaime she made them to react. Cat's treason made him to take revenge since she took away his only chance for justice.

You have a weird idea of justice. According to you, if you've lost a relative in a war, you're entitled to murder random prisoners of war, and murder their guards, and claim it's justice. I wish you joy trying to argue that point in Court.

WRT Walder Frey, the alliance remained in place until he declared it was over. On the contrary, he renegotiated its terms. Then he murdered his allies, and 3,000 soldiers. That would be similar to murdering a visiting Head of State in our World, simply because the two governments had had a dispute.

[SeanF]

fine, he planned to give Cat a very light punishment for committing a capital crime. pretty sure that would piss quite a few people off

A king can pardon an offence committed against him; or give a light punishment. Plenty of Kings have either pardoned traitors, or imposed lesser punishments than death.

Catelyn was no murderer. Karstark was a murderer, in addition to a traitor. Therefore, he received a harsher sentence.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You have a weird idea of justice. According to you, if you've lost a relative in a war, you're entitled to murder random prisoners of war, and murder their guards, and claim it's justice. I wish you joy trying to argue that point in Court.

I believe that revenge is a noble cause, those two were not just hostages they were Lannisters. Since Jaime was freed there were no way of justice so revenge was the best next thing for his murdered sons.

WRT Walder Frey, the alliance remained in place until he declared it was over. On the contrary, he renegotiated its terms. Then he murdered his allies, and 3,000 soldiers. That would be similar to murdering a visiting Head of State in our World, simply because the two governments had had a dispute.

No, the alliance was Robb's hand not Edmure's so alliance was not valid anymore, the real alliance was broken by Robb. It wasn't just a dispute it was treason.

[jobmartell]

I wish I did.

ha! I wish you did too.

[SeanF]

I believe that revenge is a noble cause, those two were not just hostages they were Lannisters. Since Jaime was freed there were no way of justice so revenge was the best next thing for his murdered sons.

No, the alliance was Robb's hand not Edmure's so alliance was not valid anymore, the real alliance was broken by Robb. It wasn't just a dispute it was treason.

So, in my hypothetical example, you *do* think it's okay to murder innocent prisoners of war, and their guards, as retaliation for the fact that a relative of yours has been killed in battle?

Robb was accepted as King by Walder Frey. There was no question of Robb's having committed treason.