What I find strange about Lady's sacrifice

[Grail King]

Excellent post, as are most of these.

I definitely think Ned (who is one of my favorite characters in the series) was demonstrating character flaws of his own, or at least some emotional problems, in the chapter. His 11-year-old daughter suddenly steps into moral ambiguity after being honest with him, and Ned does absolutely nothing to find out why, or to correct her, in private after the event and the tragic fallout? Sansa's a child, and it's Ned's job to teach her what is important; and Ned has always believed in Honor and Truth (except for, very likely, lying about Jon's origins, which, to be fair, was to save his life), but he doesn't even try to have a sit-down with his daughter about why she failed to tell the truth? Especially when he is escorting that kid into a nest of vipers, no one more serpentine than the girl's future mother-in-law? And Ned does nothing.

This is what I mean; no, Sansa tell the King exactly what you told me, no statement or actions to Robert that she told a different story in private, kinda hung his daughter out to dry on her own.

[Ser Creighton]

You know some interesting comments about Ned and Sansa and Lady and her last day alive.

Ned never wanted Sansa to be betrothed to Joff. That was Robert and Cat, Ned didn't like Joff. In fact none of the Starks did except Sansa, she wanted to be with him in a bad way. Ned doesn't have much of a choice in the matter as he lives in a Monarchy, is being pressured by his wife, and Robert actually played the Lyanna card. Note he brings up how the houses should have been bound together already. Robert is trying to live his little Stark fantasy through Joff at this point.

Ned never brought Arya to Robert, it was Cersei. Ned was pissed and asked that Sansa be brought to the audience chamber, because he thought he might need to protect Arya. Sansa had already told him the truth of it, he did not know all the BS Joff was saying, thats why he is shocked that Arya was taken to the king to begin with. Ned had also not slept in 4 days which Martin makes sure to point out, he couldn't even stand that morning, and now he was pissed because the Queen took his daughter without his leave. Do you think Ned likes it when people take his family members?

Ned walked into a packed room and had wished it was empty save him and Robert so they could handle this amicably. He sees his daughter stuck in the middle of the room surrounded by onlookers. A room full of Lannister men and Ned with no support as Renly stood there looking stupid and Selmy stood there looking all grave. The room is pointed out as being hostile.

Ned demanded to know why his daughter was not bought to him at once, then Cersei jumped in yelling at him about how dare he speak to the king in such a way. The Lannisters are all pissed because of all the lies Joff had been telling. Total BS, but why would the truth matter to Cersei.

Ned notices while Joff is lying that he can't even look at Arya which is a classic sign of lying.

The only reason Ned asked for Sansa to begin with is he thought she could help. He had no idea what kind of messed up spectical he was walking into or the lies that were going to be thrown around. He asked for Sansa to speak because he thought she was going to tell the truth and put an end to this mess. Yes he expected his daughter to be honest. Ned was trying to protect Arya, and now he really thought he had to because Joff was lying out his ass. Arya could be in real trouble here, Sansa played the neutral card and lied and said she didn't see. Which may have saved Arya but it didn't save Lady from Cersei.

When Arya knocked Sansa to the ground Ned yelled at Arya and picked her up and asked if she was hurt. In the entire seen shows care for both his daughters and shock at the scene with which he is placed.

Robert wants no part of it but Cersei baited him into a trap in front of everyone, and that is how Lady got killed. How on earth would Ned know Cersei would have Lady killed how would that even make sense for him to think about it? And why on earth would he think the daughter he raised and had already told him the truth would suddenly plead the 5th when Arya could of been in real trouble? Sansa did not think about her Family, she did not think about Lady, he thought about herself. This was after she saw what Joff did to Mycah, after he attacked Arya with a sword and was going to kill her. Oh no that wasn't Neds fault, that was Sansa and Lady paid for it.

Ned begged for Lady to be spared, a Lord begging for a Wolf. He even recalled Lyanna's name to Robert. He didn't beg for Lady because she was his favorite wolf, he begged because he didn't want Sansa to go through that. Ned had tears in eyes when he left the room and bile in his throat. Ned never hung Sansa out to dry, Sansa hung herself out to dry. He stood right next to her, and she had his support. To bad she lied. Though that is a big part of her theme isn't it? Sansa lies. The hound called her on it multiple times, Arya did, and now she is with a master of lies training to be a master liar. For good or for bad, Sansa lies and seems to have started embracing it. Just ask her new Daddy.

[Kienn]

I'm thinking more a Falcon

Falcons and Hawks are very similar so sure... I haven't seen Falconry mentioned in the books so they may use "hawking" for the activity, whether they're using hawks or falcons. Nowadays we only use Falconry even when using hawks because "hawking" has developed to mean selling garbage on the street.

I'd say Robb is probably the weakest at this point.

I'd agree, supposedly they do lose their powers for their second life.

[Lord Bowie]

What about Ned killing Lady and months later confront again the decision of being honest but, in doing so, "kill" Sansa? I think Varys makes it clear that if he doesn't confess she'll die. So, two bad decisions trying to protect Sansa, foreshadowing his own death.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

You know some interesting comments about Ned and Sansa and Lady and her last day alive.

Ned never wanted Sansa to be betrothed to Joff. That was Robert and Cat, Ned didn't like Joff. In fact none of the Starks did except Sansa, she wanted to be with him in a bad way. Ned doesn't have much of a choice in the matter as he lives in a Monarchy, is being pressured by his wife, and Robert actually played the Lyanna card. Note he brings up how the houses should have been bound together already. Robert is trying to live his little Stark fantasy through Joff at this point.

Ned never brought Arya to Robert, it was Cersei. Ned was pissed and asked that Sansa be brought to the audience chamber, because he thought he might need to protect Arya. Sansa had already told him the truth of it, he did not know all the BS Joff was saying, thats why he is shocked that Arya was taken to the king to begin with. Ned had also not slept in 4 days which Martin makes sure to point out, he couldn't even stand that morning, and now he was pissed because the Queen took his daughter without his leave. Do you think Ned likes it when people take his family members?

Ned walked into a packed room and had wished it was empty save him and Robert so they could handle this amicably. He sees his daughter stuck in the middle of the room surrounded by onlookers. A room full of Lannister men and Ned with no support as Renly stood there looking stupid and Selmy stood there looking all grave. The room is pointed out as being hostile.

Ned demanded to know why his daughter was not bought to him at once, then Cersei jumped in yelling at him about how dare he speak to the king in such a way. The Lannisters are all pissed because of all the lies Joff had been telling. Total BS, but why would the truth matter to Cersei.

Ned notices while Joff is lying that he can't even look at Arya which is a classic sign of lying.

The only reason Ned asked for Sansa to begin with is he thought she could help. He had no idea what kind of messed up spectical he was walking into or the lies that were going to be thrown around. He asked for Sansa to speak because he thought she was going to tell the truth and put an end to this mess. Yes he expected his daughter to be honest. Ned was trying to protect Arya, and now he really thought he had to because Joff was lying out his ass. Arya could be in real trouble here, Sansa played the neutral card and lied and said she didn't see. Which may have saved Arya but it didn't save Lady from Cersei.

When Arya knocked Sansa to the ground Ned yelled at Arya and picked her up and asked if she was hurt. In the entire seen shows care for both his daughters and shock at the scene with which he is placed.

Robert wants no part of it but Cersei baited him into a trap in front of everyone, and that is how Lady got killed. How on earth would Ned know Cersei would have Lady killed how would that even make sense for him to think about it? And why on earth would he think the daughter he raised and had already told him the truth would suddenly plead the 5th when Arya could of been in real trouble? Sansa did not think about her Family, she did not think about Lady, he thought about herself. This was after she saw what Joff did to Mycah, after he attacked Arya with a sword and was going to kill her. Oh no that wasn't Neds fault, that was Sansa and Lady paid for it.

Ned begged for Lady to be spared, a Lord begging for a Wolf. He even recalled Lyanna's name to Robert. He didn't beg for Lady because she was his favorite wolf, he begged because he didn't want Sansa to go through that. Ned had tears in eyes when he left the room and bile in his throat. Ned never hung Sansa out to dry, Sansa hung herself out to dry. He stood right next to her, and she had his support. To bad she lied. Though that is a big part of her theme isn't it? Sansa lies. The hound called her on it multiple times, Arya did, and now she is with a master of lies training to be a master liar. For good or for bad, Sansa lies and seems to have started embracing it. Just ask her new Daddy.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Well said.

[johnnysd]

Just another example of what a complete idiot Ned was. He was so wrapped up in his twisted version of honor that he consistently made decisions that had horrible but completely avoidable outcomes. I am reading GOT again right now, and it just hits you over the head how many incredibly bad decisions Ned makes, this being one of them. All he to say to Robert was "Arya speaks true, Sansa told me what happened last night" and the situation would have been quickly defused. Cersei would hate him even more but that is something he could never avoid. But every decision the game makes is horrible based on his own honor code, but also an honor code that he breaks himself at times to further one of his previous stupid decisions.

[Free Northman Reborn]

On the Lady sacrifice, Sansa told her dad the truth the night before she was brought before the King what I find weird is there is no reaction from Ned ( plenty of reaction from Arya as far as I remember ) when Sansa said she didn't remember what happened, since Ned learned it off page

Ned doesn't react with disappointment, because his expectations of Sansa are much lower than of Arya. It is pretty obvious that Ned respects Arya's strength and "Starkness" more than Sansa, who he obviously considers to be of weaker character.

Don't confuse this with him loving one child more than the other, because as a parent one can acnowledge different children as having different strengths of personality and courage, without loving the weaker one less. If anything, you want to protect the weaker child more from the world.

So Ned knows Sansa doesn't have Arya's inner strength, and therefore doesn't judge her as harshly as he would Arya when she disappoints him. We also see this difference in treatment when Ned tells Arya more of the truth in King's Landing than he does Sansa, who he obviously sees as a bit of a lovable "airhead", for want of a better term right at this moment.

[Pecan]

I think that Ned unwittingly betrayed the Old Gods when he cut off Lady's head and I suspect lost his own his own head in retribution AND cut off Sansa from being a Stark at the same time.

I somehow think Sansa will need another Dire wolf before can become Stark again - Perhaps one of Nymeria's pups

I've talked about this before and I'm basically in agreement with it. When he killed Lady, he unknowingly severed Sansa from "the pack" and pushed her right into the arms of the Lannisters. I think that's key to understanding Sansa's arc.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I've talked about this before and I'm basically in agreement with it. When he killed Lady, he unknowingly severed Sansa from "the pack" and pushed her right into the arms of the Lannisters. I think that's key to understanding Sansa's arc.

Disagree. Sansa is the one who rejected the Old Gods by choosing the Seven of her mother's Faith.

[Pecan]

to be honest, all Ned had to do was allow Lady to escape, much like Nymeria. Then you'd have one heck of a pack running loose. He knew it was wrong, Lady didnt deserve it. Ned went against his normal gut reaction. He realizes this later on in the book I believe when he feels like those wolves were meant to be found and were meant to be his childrens companions and protectors I believe.

Or he could have said "fuck it, I'm Ned Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Hand of the King" and simply pardoned Lady and sent her back to Winterfell with a couple of his guardsmen and trusted that Robert truly wouldn't have given a shit about it either way.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I've talked about this before and I'm basically in agreement with it. When he killed Lady, he unknowingly severed Sansa from "the pack" and pushed her right into the arms of the Lannisters. I think that's key to understanding Sansa's arc.

The problem with this plan being that his lovestruck daughter Sansa, coupled with her obviously ambitious mother, had pushed him into a corner by betrothing Sansa to Joffrey, against Ned's will. And it is this very Joffrey and his vile mother who needed to be appeased, or else Sansa would suffer for it.

So he really didn't have a choice. If he had his way they wouldn't be in the predicament in the first place.

[Eira Seren]

Assuming R+L=J

And the Notion that 1 of 1000 Firstmen become skinchangers.

I find it extremely odd that all the Stark children are Wargs including Jon who has 2 completly different parents then the others.

I heard people suggest in her dreams where she is with Lady. Sansa is warging Lady. When you warg with an animal. Over time you become one. Lady was always described as a perfect imitation of Sansa. Sansa could of be the Stark to have the deepest bond with her wolf Who's to say Lady's conciseness isn't still floating around somewhere and Sansa is able to reach out to Lady in her dreams?

Also many think Sansa has been or will soon be skinchanging birds.

This is an interesting idea. All those lies Sansa tells and all the gaps in her memory seem to stem from that very first moment where she lies and claims she doesn't remember what Joffrey did.

Then, she loses Lady. I like the reading that it means that a part of her (the fanciful part) is dead. I wondered also if her memory lapses (who forgets about their remaining family when they are in trouble? And the kiss/not kiss?) are tied to Lady's death, too --as if a part of her just keeps vanishing.

But. Then I saw your post and I wonder. If Bran can connect to time through the wierwoods, what if Sansa can also connect to Lady, in whatever form she has taken (has she gone into the trees, or the world)? Would this mean that Sansa also has some greenseeing ability? Or does it simply mean she can connect to Lady across the divide between life and death because of the warging connection?

[Free Northman Reborn]

This is an interesting idea. All those lies Sansa tells and all the gaps in her memory seem to stem from that very first moment where she lies and claims she doesn't remember what Joffrey did.

Then, she loses Lady. I like the reading that it means that a part of her (the fanciful part) is dead. I wondered also if her memory lapses (who forgets about their remaining family when they are in trouble? And the kiss/not kiss?) are tied to Lady's death, too --as if a part of her just keeps vanishing.

But. Then I saw your post and I wonder. If Bran can connect to time through the wierwoods, what if Sansa can also connect to Lady, in whatever form she has taken (has she gone into the trees, or the world)? Would this mean that Sansa also has some greenseeing ability? Or does it simply mean she can connect to Lady across the divide between life and death because of the warging connection?

Lady is gone. Signifying that Sansa's future lies in the South.

[Pecan]

Disagree. Sansa is the one who rejected the Old Gods by choosing the Seven of her mother's Faith.

Actually, I should have edited the old gods part as I don't have a particular opinion on that. No, what I was referring to was the notion of symbolically severing Sansa from the pack. And actually, it's a bit more than symbolic since we know that the Stark kids all have supernatural connections with their wolves. When Ned kills Lady, in a way, you could argue that he's killing the wolf part of Sansa. That's what I was trying to get at.

[Pecan]

Lady is gone. Signifying that Sansa's future lies in the South.

That's a pretty definitive statement. I suppose you could make that argument, but it seems thin to me. I think what happened to Lady will turn out to be highly relevant to Sansa's story, but there are all sorts of ways to interpret that event and what it ultimately means.

[Free Northman Reborn]

That's a pretty definitive statement. I suppose you could make that argument, but it seems thin to me. I think what happened to Lady will turn out to be highly relevant to Sansa's story, but there are all sorts of ways to interpret that event and what it ultimately means.

Sansa will go on to achieve great success in the political landscape of the South. She will even use this success to the benefit of her ancestral North. But her personal future is in the South. I think that is pretty clear.

We also see that it is not merely a matter of proximity to the North. Arya has travelled even further away from the North, and is under severe pressure right now to actively destroy her entire identity as a Stark. And yet, still she clings to it. In secret. In her dreams. Keeping her warging abilities from the Faceless Men. Hiding Needle.

It is clear that Arya's connection to the North will never be destroyed. While Sansa may retain nostalgic loyalty to the North, her destiny lies elsewhere.

[kiasyd]

You know some interesting comments about Ned and Sansa and Lady and her last day alive.

Ned never wanted Sansa to be betrothed to Joff. That was Robert and Cat, Ned didn't like Joff. In fact none of the Starks did except Sansa, she wanted to be with him in a bad way. Ned doesn't have much of a choice in the matter as he lives in a Monarchy, is being pressured by his wife, and Robert actually played the Lyanna card. Note he brings up how the houses should have been bound together already. Robert is trying to live his little Stark fantasy through Joff at this point.

Ned never brought Arya to Robert, it was Cersei. Ned was pissed and asked that Sansa be brought to the audience chamber, because he thought he might need to protect Arya. Sansa had already told him the truth of it, he did not know all the BS Joff was saying, thats why he is shocked that Arya was taken to the king to begin with. Ned had also not slept in 4 days which Martin makes sure to point out, he couldn't even stand that morning, and now he was pissed because the Queen took his daughter without his leave. Do you think Ned likes it when people take his family members?

Ned walked into a packed room and had wished it was empty save him and Robert so they could handle this amicably. He sees his daughter stuck in the middle of the room surrounded by onlookers. A room full of Lannister men and Ned with no support as Renly stood there looking stupid and Selmy stood there looking all grave. The room is pointed out as being hostile.

Ned demanded to know why his daughter was not bought to him at once, then Cersei jumped in yelling at him about how dare he speak to the king in such a way. The Lannisters are all pissed because of all the lies Joff had been telling. Total BS, but why would the truth matter to Cersei.

Ned notices while Joff is lying that he can't even look at Arya which is a classic sign of lying.

The only reason Ned asked for Sansa to begin with is he thought she could help. He had no idea what kind of messed up spectical he was walking into or the lies that were going to be thrown around. He asked for Sansa to speak because he thought she was going to tell the truth and put an end to this mess. Yes he expected his daughter to be honest. Ned was trying to protect Arya, and now he really thought he had to because Joff was lying out his ass. Arya could be in real trouble here, Sansa played the neutral card and lied and said she didn't see. Which may have saved Arya but it didn't save Lady from Cersei.

When Arya knocked Sansa to the ground Ned yelled at Arya and picked her up and asked if she was hurt. In the entire seen shows care for both his daughters and shock at the scene with which he is placed.

Robert wants no part of it but Cersei baited him into a trap in front of everyone, and that is how Lady got killed. How on earth would Ned know Cersei would have Lady killed how would that even make sense for him to think about it? And why on earth would he think the daughter he raised and had already told him the truth would suddenly plead the 5th when Arya could of been in real trouble? Sansa did not think about her Family, she did not think about Lady, he thought about herself. This was after she saw what Joff did to Mycah, after he attacked Arya with a sword and was going to kill her. Oh no that wasn't Neds fault, that was Sansa and Lady paid for it.

Ned begged for Lady to be spared, a Lord begging for a Wolf. He even recalled Lyanna's name to Robert. He didn't beg for Lady because she was his favorite wolf, he begged because he didn't want Sansa to go through that. Ned had tears in eyes when he left the room and bile in his throat. Ned never hung Sansa out to dry, Sansa hung herself out to dry. He stood right next to her, and she had his support. To bad she lied. Though that is a big part of her theme isn't it? Sansa lies. The hound called her on it multiple times, Arya did, and now she is with a master of lies training to be a master liar. For good or for bad, Sansa lies and seems to have started embracing it. Just ask her new Daddy.

Great post! However, after all that hell, Ned should have sent the girls back to WF - that was the moment to realize the viper's nest they were going into.

[Mladen]

Trust Martin? Trust Martin? Believe him yes, but trust the guy? Hi I am an African Prince, I am a super rich billionaire but my country is being invaded by an evil general and I need to hide my money. If you help me you can keep half of my billions, all I need is your bank account number and and log in ID and password. Please hurry I don't have much time.

Ser Craighton, I don't know what this ranting of yours is all about, but I was referring to the SSM saying all Stark children are wargs.

[Ifightbadguys]

You know some interesting comments about Ned and Sansa and Lady and her last day alive.

Ned never wanted Sansa to be betrothed to Joff. That was Robert and Cat, Ned didn't like Joff. In fact none of the Starks did except Sansa, she wanted to be with him in a bad way. Ned doesn't have much of a choice in the matter as he lives in a Monarchy, is being pressured by his wife, and Robert actually played the Lyanna card. Note he brings up how the houses should have been bound together already. Robert is trying to live his little Stark fantasy through Joff at this point.

Ned never brought Arya to Robert, it was Cersei. Ned was pissed and asked that Sansa be brought to the audience chamber, because he thought he might need to protect Arya. Sansa had already told him the truth of it, he did not know all the BS Joff was saying, thats why he is shocked that Arya was taken to the king to begin with. Ned had also not slept in 4 days which Martin makes sure to point out, he couldn't even stand that morning, and now he was pissed because the Queen took his daughter without his leave. Do you think Ned likes it when people take his family members?

Ned walked into a packed room and had wished it was empty save him and Robert so they could handle this amicably. He sees his daughter stuck in the middle of the room surrounded by onlookers. A room full of Lannister men and Ned with no support as Renly stood there looking stupid and Selmy stood there looking all grave. The room is pointed out as being hostile.

Ned demanded to know why his daughter was not bought to him at once, then Cersei jumped in yelling at him about how dare he speak to the king in such a way. The Lannisters are all pissed because of all the lies Joff had been telling. Total BS, but why would the truth matter to Cersei.

Ned notices while Joff is lying that he can't even look at Arya which is a classic sign of lying.

The only reason Ned asked for Sansa to begin with is he thought she could help. He had no idea what kind of messed up spectical he was walking into or the lies that were going to be thrown around. He asked for Sansa to speak because he thought she was going to tell the truth and put an end to this mess. Yes he expected his daughter to be honest. Ned was trying to protect Arya, and now he really thought he had to because Joff was lying out his ass. Arya could be in real trouble here, Sansa played the neutral card and lied and said she didn't see. Which may have saved Arya but it didn't save Lady from Cersei.

When Arya knocked Sansa to the ground Ned yelled at Arya and picked her up and asked if she was hurt. In the entire seen shows care for both his daughters and shock at the scene with which he is placed.

Robert wants no part of it but Cersei baited him into a trap in front of everyone, and that is how Lady got killed. How on earth would Ned know Cersei would have Lady killed how would that even make sense for him to think about it? And why on earth would he think the daughter he raised and had already told him the truth would suddenly plead the 5th when Arya could of been in real trouble? Sansa did not think about her Family, she did not think about Lady, he thought about herself. This was after she saw what Joff did to Mycah, after he attacked Arya with a sword and was going to kill her. Oh no that wasn't Neds fault, that was Sansa and Lady paid for it.

Ned begged for Lady to be spared, a Lord begging for a Wolf. He even recalled Lyanna's name to Robert. He didn't beg for Lady because she was his favorite wolf, he begged because he didn't want Sansa to go through that. Ned had tears in eyes when he left the room and bile in his throat. Ned never hung Sansa out to dry, Sansa hung herself out to dry. He stood right next to her, and she had his support. To bad she lied. Though that is a big part of her theme isn't it? Sansa lies. The hound called her on it multiple times, Arya did, and now she is with a master of lies training to be a master liar. For good or for bad, Sansa lies and seems to have started embracing it. Just ask her new Daddy.

This is perfect. Ned made a mistake but Sansa had herself to blame.

[mormont]

Sansa will go on to achieve great success in the political landscape of the South. She will even use this success to the benefit of her ancestral North. But her personal future is in the South. I think that is pretty clear.

We also see that it is not merely a matter of proximity to the North. Arya has travelled even further away from the North, and is under severe pressure right now to actively destroy her entire identity as a Stark. And yet, still she clings to it. In secret. In her dreams. Keeping her warging abilities from the Faceless Men. Hiding Needle.

It is clear that Arya's connection to the North will never be destroyed. While Sansa may retain nostalgic loyalty to the North, her destiny lies elsewhere

So when Arya clings to her connection to the North, it's 'clear' that it will never be destroyed - but when Sansa does the same thing, we are to write it off as 'nostalgic', and irrelevant to her future? The same evidence is conclusive for Arya's future but irrelevant to Sansa's?

This is known as 'confirmation bias'.

Disagree. Sansa is the one who rejected the Old Gods by choosing the Seven of her mother's Faith.

When did this happen? What evidence is there that Sansa has either rejected the old gods or embraced the Seven? And why is it supposed to be significant, even if it's true? Arya, who you insist has this unbreakable connection to the North, explicitly rejects the old gods as well as the Seven. Surely, by your own argument, she's lost her connection to the North by doing so?

Ned doesn't react with disappointment, because his expectations of Sansa are much lower than of Arya. It is pretty obvious that Ned respects Arya's strength and "Starkness" more than Sansa, who he obviously considers to be of weaker character.

'Obviously' here meaning 'I don't have any actual evidence for this, so I'm going to just say it's 'obvious' and hope that'll do'? Sorry, it won't.

Nothing Ned says or does indicates that he considers Sansa to be 'of weaker character' or holds any similar negative opinion of her, nor that he respects her any less than he does Arya.

All of the above posts tell us much about your opinion of the characters, but little about the characters. You're starting from this romantic ideal that Arya, the tough, brave tomboy, is a 'real Stark' and so, of course, her father respects her more, she has a stronger connection to the North, and so on. You then pick and choose evidence, discarding it if it doesn't fit this schema. What this shows us is that you like characters like Arya more than you do ones like Sansa. But it tells us nothing about which has a greater connection to the North, or what their futures will be.