What I find strange about Lady's sacrifice

[Mladen]

Actually, I should have edited the old gods part as I don't have a particular opinion on that. No, what I was referring to was the notion of symbolically severing Sansa from the pack. And actually, it's a bit more than symbolic since we know that the Stark kids all have supernatural connections with their wolves. When Ned kills Lady, in a way, you could argue that he's killing the wolf part of Sansa. That's what I was trying to get at.

But even that is a flawed argument. Sansa's story has been filled with she-wolf symbolism, Northern references, parallels with Ned. There is another thing we might consider when Lady's death is in question. At the beginning of Sansa's first POV chapter, Mordane noted that she is the same as Arya in regard of Lady. Since she-wolf symbolizes the women's freedom, and has been used by many feminists in 20th century, one can argue that by killing Lady, Martin in his universe forcefully domesticated Sansa, turning her for public into "pretty little bird". But, under that facade, Martin also created a powerful symbolism in her arc that is rather wrong to say Sansa was ever less Stark than the others. Even when she made mistakes, even when she was separated from the others, even when she was beaten, tortured, threatened, she endured... Her Stark roots are undeniably strong just as in each of the kids' storyarcs.

Lady is gone. Signifying that Sansa's future lies in the South.

I wouldn't bet my money on that. Is it a possibility? Yes. After all, she is a woman and as such she was always expected to leave her home by marrying into another family. Plus, there is symbolic co-relation between her and Harrenhal, the game she is getting better in... Perhaps she will end up living in the South (my idea would be Harrenhal), but all in all, that wouldn't make her less Stark, as some (not you) try to argue.

Disagree. Sansa is the one who rejected the Old Gods by choosing the Seven of her mother's Faith.

Old debate, and quite the flawed one. We see Sansa more times in Godswood than in Sept. Yes, she admits herself liking the hymns etc, but that is not the rejection of the Old Gods. Ned was married in Riverrun, Arya is currently the acolyte of the Many faced Gods, who knows what Rickon's religious beliefs are.

Robert wants no part of it but Cersei baited him into a trap in front of everyone, and that is how Lady got killed. How on earth would Ned know Cersei would have Lady killed how would that even make sense for him to think about it? And why on earth would he think the daughter he raised and had already told him the truth would suddenly plead the 5th when Arya could of been in real trouble? Sansa did not think about her Family, she did not think about Lady, he thought about herself. This was after she saw what Joff did to Mycah, after he attacked Arya with a sword and was going to kill her. Oh no that wasn't Neds fault, that was Sansa and Lady paid for it.

Ned begged for Lady to be spared, a Lord begging for a Wolf. He even recalled Lyanna's name to Robert. He didn't beg for Lady because she was his favorite wolf, he begged because he didn't want Sansa to go through that. Ned had tears in eyes when he left the room and bile in his throat. Ned never hung Sansa out to dry, Sansa hung herself out to dry. He stood right next to her, and she had his support. To bad she lied. Though that is a big part of her theme isn't it? Sansa lies. The hound called her on it multiple times, Arya did, and now she is with a master of lies training to be a master liar. For good or for bad, Sansa lies and seems to have started embracing it. Just ask her new Daddy.

You had me until these two paragraphs. Let we clear several things:

1. Arya struck Jiffrey first. We all love her, I know, but that was something she shouldn't have done.

2. As much as it sounds wrong, in the system Joffrey lived, torturing Mycah was not a crime. Contrary to that, what Arya did, indeed was.

3. Arya knew that what she had done was wrong, that is why she ran, and that is why she chased off Nymeria.

4. Cersei wanted blood from day one, she literally said that wolves won't reach KL in Winterfell.

5. Robert, as the King, never for a split of second thought of punishing Arya. Even though she indeed committed a crime, he was no fool, he knew his son did something wrong, as he admitted to Ned later at the Tourney, Cersei pressured him at some sort of a trial. To evade punishing Arya, he deflected the entire thing on wolves. So, objectively, even though Arya was considered to be in danger here, Robert had no intention of punishing her. Wolf, Nymeria, not Lady, was indeed in danger. Robert says "I forgot about damn wolf" which points out that while Arya could have been let go free, Nymeria wouldn't be that lucky. We know this since Jory and she chased that wolf to save her, remember.

6. People say Sansa lied. Yes, she did. But, we should all remember that she didn't lie about the chain of events, she lied about her memories. Basically, she pleaded the 5th, and remained neutral. Interestingly, people uses this as the token she sided with Lannisters, but that is not the case. With her testimony, Sansa gave Robert the "official" reason to abandon the whole thing. But, even if Sansa's lie gave the solution, two facts couldn't have been changed: 1. Direwolf indeed bit Joffrey & 2. Cersei wanted blood. So, Sansa's testimony had nothing to do with two precursors already in the game. Her telling the truth wouldn't change that Joffrey was bit by a dangerous animal, or that Cersei hated those animals. Sansa telling the truth wouldn't save Lady, because Lady was never in danger.

So, who is to blame for Lady's death? Certainly not Sansa. Ned? Well, I would say he made some mistakes that night, but it wasn't his fault too. This was on bloodthirsty Cersei and weakling Robert. Nothing Sansa or Ned could have done to stop Lady's death. But, I do blame Ned for continuing with this charade of engagements. Instead of calling it off the moment Joffrey showed his true face, he continued with it. He put other things in front of his family, because that is what noble, honorable man should do. And he, just as his family, ultimately paid for that.

[fuem]

Ye because Ned light some candles around her chanted to the heart tree and just slaughted her to appease the heart tree.

Why does everything about everything get blown up

[fuem]

Ye because Ned light some candles around her chanted to the heart tree and just slaughted her to appease the heart tree.

Why does everything about everything get blown out of context

[David Selig]

Could we please stop using the term "Starkness" as some distinct, well-defined characteristic. Not all Starks are alike. Ned Stark isn't the paragon of the mythical "Starkness". If you want to say someone is like Ned, say it, don't use "Starkness" as a term instead. All you need to be really a Stark is to born as one. That's it, you can't lose it.

[FoolishOwl]

Could we please stop using the term "Starkness" as some distinct, well-defined characteristics in a discussion, automatically loses. Not all Starks are alike. Ned Stark isn't the paragon of the mythical "Starkness". If you want to say someone is like Ned, say it, don't use "Starkness" as a term instead. All you need to be really a Stark is to born as one. That's it, you can't lose it.

It's not a Boolean variable, and we can't measure it objectively, no. However, affirming one's identity as a Stark, in the face of efforts to strip it away, is very much on the mind of Jon Snow and of Arya Stark. But it seems that this is most at issue for Sansa Stark. In more than one of her POV chapters, she is named Alayne Stone -- suggesting her Stark identity is repressed.

I suspect, however, the scene in which she builds a snow-castle, a model of Winterfell, suggests that she has reconnected with her identity as a Stark -- and I think that somehow, she will be connected with Winterfell much as Arya is with Nymeria.

[Sansa_Stark]

Could we please stop using the term "Starkness" as some distinct, well-defined characteristics in a discussion, automatically loses. Not all Starks are alike. Ned Stark isn't the paragon of the mythical "Starkness". If you want to say someone is like Ned, say it, don't use "Starkness" as a term instead. All you need to be really a Stark is to born as one. That's it, you can't lose it.

Why consider Ned the most Stark when you have Brandon who has the "wolfs blood" or some shit?

As in being a hotheaded moron.

well shit, Ned got one of those right or wrong.

I agree its a silly concept though.

[fuem]

Any of you fellas on a debate team..

[Mladen]

It's not a Boolean variable, and we can't measure it objectively, no. However, affirming one's identity as a Stark, in the face of efforts to strip it away, is very much on the mind of Jon Snow and of Arya Stark. But it seems that this is most at issue for Sansa Stark. In more than one of her POV chapters, she is named Alayne Stone -- suggesting her Stark identity is repressed.

I suspect, however, the scene in which she builds a snow-castle, a model of Winterfell, suggests that she has reconnected with her identity as a Stark -- and I think that somehow, she will be connected with Winterfell much as Arya is with Nymeria.

And Arya has been named Cat of Canals, and I don't see much debate about how she lost her identity. Arya's identity is also repressed and yet no one is calling her less Stark than the others. And may I remind everyone that Jon, although in blood, is not a Stark :). All in all, as David had said, the "Starkness" debate is literally flawed on so many levels, for the premises taken are completely wrong.

Sansa was never severed from her identity as a Stark. Even when she went to Cersei, she established powerful connection to her Stark roots. She did what many of us believe her dear aunt Lyanna did... :)

[David Selig]

Why consider Ned the most Stark when you have Brandon who has the "wolfs blood" or some shit?

I don't, it's most people who keep talking about "Starkness" who do that.

[Sansa_Stark]

I don't, it's most people who keep talking about "Starkness" who do that.

Rhetorical question.

[Ifightbadguys]

And Arya has been named Cat of Canals, and I don't see much debate about how she lost her identity. Arya's identity is also repressed and yet no one is calling her less Stark than the others. And may I remind everyone that Jon, although in blood, is not a Stark :). All in all, as David had said, the "Starkness" debate is literally flawed on so many levels, for the premises taken are completely wrong.

Sansa was never severed from her identity as a Stark. Even when she went to Cersei, she established powerful connection to her Stark roots. She did what many of us believe her dear aunt Lyanna did... :)

I dont think Arya lost her identity. I also dont think Sansa was in love with her family/the north as Arya was.

"It's just a stupid sword," she said, aloud this time...

... but it wasn't.

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile."

I understand the use of "Starkness" is silly. I would say Sansa is more her mothers daughter whilst Arya is more her fathers daughter. Arya seems to have alot more if the wolf blood that Lyanna had.

[FoolishOwl]

I didn't mean that Arya lost her identity. When she joined the Faceless Men, it was required of her that she abandon her old identity, but she refuses to do so. She hides Needle for safe-keeping, and when the Friendly Man asks who it was that killed Dareon, the deserter from the Night's Watch, she says it was "Arya, of House Stark", for which she is punished with blindness. Despite all the times Arya hides her identity, she strives to keep it.

My point was that, from the point of view of Arya Stark and Jon Snow, there is a quality of being a Stark, which they strive for; I believe this is true of Sansa as well, though her efforts are more subtle.

[SnowOnFire]

It's a possibility, but Ned valued honour and HONESTY a lot. This resulted in his life. I just can't picture Ned telling Sansa to lie - it would be encouraging her to be dishonest. In my mind the only thing Ned ever lied ( or encouraged lying) to his family was R + L =J and that's currently just a theory. Even so, that was him lying and I don't think he would've ever encouraged his children to lie even in the slightest.

Besides, Ned called Sansa there to tell the truth of what really happened. If he wanted it to go Joffrey's way he could've just told Arya to be quiet.

[Houndbird]

I don't think it's a coincidence that Sansa is the only one of the Stark children who isn't a warg-- or at least, the only one who hasn't developed her warging abilities at all, even on a subconscious level.

Did Rob ever show any warning abilities ? I don't recall any. He kept his direwolf away due to Jeyne n family being afraid and did not listen to Cats advice to keep it close

[mormont]

I would say Sansa is more her mothers daughter whilst Arya is more her fathers daughter. Arya seems to have alot more if the wolf blood that Lyanna had.

I am a bit of a stuck record on this point, but the fact is, Sansa has very little in common with Cat, at least Sansa as she is at the beginning of AGOT, and arguably has more in common with Arya. Cat is an immensely practical, down-to-earth person with very little interest in romance or songs or court proprieties or beautiful dresses. She doesn't blink an eye at traveling without a maid or a wardrobe, without anyone other than Ser Rodrik, roughing it on the road when necessary, even fighting when she has to. Unlike Sansa, we know she has a head for maths and the practicalities of running not only a household, but an army. She is well aware of political realities and not blind to what courtly life actually is - a political power struggle.

None of this is in any way similar to Sansa. Sansa is no less a Stark, but she's not very much like her mother, at least not yet.

[Mladen]

I dont think Arya lost her identity. I also dont think Sansa was in love with her family/the north as Arya was.

Problem is that I don't think that either girl actually lost their identities. Throughout the series we see how connected to their families they are. There is not a scale in which we can determine which one loves the North more, and it is rather wrong to say it. Even if you argue that Sansa wanted to abandon the NOrth due to her being in love with someone from the South, you have also to remember that Arya went the opposite direction from the North to Braavos. Simply, this is not straw man discussion where one girl is 100% of the North and the other isn't. As Ned told Arya in AGOT: you (she and Sansa) have the same blood.

I understand the use of "Starkness" is silly. I would say Sansa is more her mothers daughter whilst Arya is more her fathers daughter. Arya seems to have alot more if the wolf blood that Lyanna had.

Quite the opposite. Arya has a lot of Catelyn, while, if we are talking strictly about the girls, Sansa is Ned's daughter. Arya is a great mix of Brandon/Lyanna temper, plus she proved herself to be as smart and cunning in many ways Cat showed it. Sansa and Ned have a lot in common. The sense of honor and duty, them being very closeted and cold (when needed). When you see how Sansa went to her wedding, it is basically how Ned was described to marry Catelyn. He did it out of honor, and she did it coldly and unwillingly...

Did Rob ever show any warning abilities ? I don't recall any. He kept his direwolf away due to Jeyne n family being afraid and did not listen to Cats advice to keep it close

Well, there is that story how Greywind and Robb found that path in Westerlands... Perhaps, Robb warged the direwolf subconsciously and found the way... We will never know for sure...

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I dont think Arya lost her identity. I also dont think Sansa was in love with her family/the north as Arya was.

"It's just a stupid sword," she said, aloud this time...

... but it wasn't.

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile."

I understand the use of "Starkness" is silly. I would say Sansa is more her mothers daughter whilst Arya is more her fathers daughter. Arya seems to have alot more if the wolf blood that Lyanna had.

That doesn't make sense. Sansa is as much in love with the North and her family as Arya. Hell, Sansa's escape from KL was in hope to go home.

I love that Arya line. But how different is it from Sansa building a snow castle like Winterfell?

No, I'd say the contrary. Sansa's personality is much more closer to Ned's and Arya's much closer to Cat.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I am a bit of a stuck record on this point, but the fact is, Sansa has very little in common with Cat, at least Sansa as she is at the beginning of AGOT, and arguably has more in common with Arya. Cat is an immensely practical, down-to-earth person with very little interest in romance or songs or court proprieties or beautiful dresses. She doesn't blink an eye at traveling without a maid or a wardrobe, without anyone other than Ser Rodrik, roughing it on the road when necessary, even fighting when she has to. Unlike Sansa, we know she has a head for maths and the practicalities of running not only a household, but an army. She is well aware of political realities and not blind to what courtly life actually is - a political power struggle.

None of this is in any way similar to Sansa. Sansa is no less a Stark, but she's not very much like her mother, at least not yet.

Well then let's rather say Sansa is similar to how Cat was when Cat was Sansa's age. You know, the Cat that flirted and canoodled with Littlefinger with heady abandon. No doubt full of dreams of knights and banquets and tourneys and so on.

[Free Northman Reborn]

That doesn't make sense. Sansa is as much in love with the North and her family as Arya. Hell, Sansa's escape from KL was in hope to go home.

I love that Arya line. But how different is it from Sansa building a snow castle like Winterfell?

No, I'd say the contrary. Sansa's personality is much more closer to Ned's and Arya's much closer to Cat.

Hogwash.

[mormont]

Well then let's rather say Sansa is similar to how Cat was when Cat was Sansa's age.

You could say that, but you'd be making it up, and you'd be wrong.

You know, the Cat that flirted and canoodled with Littlefinger with heady abandon. No doubt full of dreams of knights and banquets and tourneys and so on.

Except that the idea that Cat 'flirted and canoodled with Littefinger' is based entirely on the recollections of LF himself and Lysa, both of whom have been shown to be very unreliable on the subject: that these recollections fit very ill with the other information we have about Cat as a girl, the Cat that Hoster treated almost as a son until Edmure was born: that the very reason Cat rejected LF was because she gave more weight to duty and responsibility than romance: and that even if all of the above were not true, that would still provide no evidence of her being 'full of dreams of knights and banquets and tourneys and so on'. Again, you're throwing around a term like 'no doubt' to cover for the fact that there is absolutely no evidence that what you're suggesting is true.