Bakker XXII: All Aboard the Damnation Express

[Gaston de Foix]

why did the Inchoroi never attempt to raise the No-God?

[Kalbear]

why did the Inchoroi never attempt to raise the No-God?

Probably because they didn't know how. Same reason that Mek couldn't break the spell that sealed golgotterath; without the theoretical understanding it would simply never occur to him that such a thing could exist. Remember that spellcasting is a new thing to Inchoroi; they're used to thinking in scientific ways, not spiritual ones. Damnation is something that pisses them off partially because of this.

[Hello World]

The Inchies goal was to reduce the world to 144,000 souls. The goal therefore was to give Nonmen functional immortality for the sake of destroying their ability to reproduce. The Inchies had to destroy the number of Nonmen and their ability to reproduce.

Then they must have been incapable of spreading a plague that kills everyone - male and female, which I find... implausible given the fact that they are advanced enough to be able to make people immortal. Not only that, but they had to make the men immortal in order for their plan to work. Just seems too convoluted IMO. Unless they purposefully targeted the women and made the men immortal in order to drive them insane for whatever reason.

Also, the glossary says that the Nonmen did in fact attain immortality and the Inchoroi declared their work done and were allowed to leave, I assume this applies to both male and female (or that's what it looked like) Nonmen because if the ageing process had not stopped among the women then they can't say that their work is done and the Nonmen wouldn't let them go. It could be that they made everyone immortal in order to buy time to spread the womb plague before leaving, but then again, if you can do all that then just kill everyone and be done with it.

I also (this is speculation) think that the womb plague must have had something to with the metaphysics of the outside/Yatwer/pregnancy, and the Inchoroi were hardly the experts on those matter at that time.

[Sci-2]

I also (this is speculation) think that the womb plague must have had something to with the metaphysics of the outside/Yatwer/pregnancy, and the Inchoroi were hardly the experts on those matter at that time.

I also think the Womb Plague was an accident. I don't doubt the Inchies wanted to bring down the global population but I think making the Nonmen immortal was actually a plan to buy themselves time.

After all, we're talking about a race where no individual member would want to die, knowing they are damned.

[Anatúrinbor]

why did the Inchoroi never attempt to raise the No-God?

I think the No-God might have been the Mangaecca's idea actually.

Now that I think about it, are there any females in the consult?

There is Nau-Cayuti's wife who poisoned him, so they do recruit (or recruited) women when necessary. Whether they have witches among their ranks however, I don't know but I doubt it because the Mangaecca didn't have any and there is no indication that the consult has been recruiting male sorcerers let alone female.

[lokisnow]

there's always my crackpot that the womb plague is just the reassuring cultural lie the nonmen tell everyone so they don't have to face the truth: the Inchoroi gave them immortality, but the price was their women, ultimately they willingly gave them up in an attempt to forestall death and damnation--fucking selfish.

or my extremecrackpot that they only became immortal by eating their women.

[Shryke]

They are Nonman wives and daughters.

There is something that's bugging me about the womb plague. Why did the Inchoroi target the females only? They spent decades working as physicians to the Nonmen, presumably they could have spread a virus capable of killing all Nonmen, male and female. In fact it should have been even harder to manufacture a plague that specifically targets the females and not the males to any large degree.

The prevailing theory I believe is that they tried but failed. They don't understand the Techne anymore and just sort of trial and error their way to various things.

Also, how could the Nonmen be that stupid anyway? Here are the obscenities that came here to destroy us and now we're entrusting them with our bodies because they promised to make us immortal? Had it not occurred to them that if these people are advanced enough to make them immortal then they could just as easily kill everyone with their medicines?

The gift was too good to refuse.

[Sci-2]

Also, how could the Nonmen be that stupid anyway? Here are the obscenities that came here to destroy us and now we're entrusting them with our bodies because they promised to make us immortal? Had it not occurred to them that if these people are advanced enough to make them immortal then they could just as easily kill everyone with their medicines?

I have a feeling that the process that conferred immortality might have had more to with dispersing some kind virus than the Inchies applying it to each individual.

I do agree some Nonmen should've opposed this but its possible the Nonmen found their birthrates plummeting naturally and needed to forestall extinction.

[Anatúrinbor]

The prevailing theory I believe is that they tried but failed. They don't understand the Techne anymore and just sort of trial and error their way to various things.

I think the Tekne was lost only after all of the Inchoroi were killed save Aurang and Aurax. The womb plague came at a time when the Inchoroi could still manufacture Sranc, Bashrag, and Wracu.

The gift was too good to refuse.

Yeah, but if a guy who has been trying to kill you for the last several years comes to you all of a sudden and says drink this bottle and it will make you immortal... What would your reaction be? How is something like that going to work on anyone?

[Gaston de Foix]

The paradox is that that if the Consult came up with the No God then clearly they have mastered combining tekne and magic to an extent the Inchies never did. On the other hand if they have mastered Tekne, then why does it take so long to resurrect the No God? The No God walks in the first Apocalypse, and then it takes 20 centuries to resurrect him or build a new one? What has changed?

[Gaston de Foix]

Then they must have been incapable of spreading a plague that kills everyone - male and female, which I find... implausible given the fact that they are advanced enough to be able to make people immortal. Not only that, but they had to make the men immortal in order for their plan to work. Just seems too convoluted IMO. Unless they purposefully targeted the women and made the men immortal in order to drive them insane for whatever reason.

I suppose the only way it makes sense is if the Inchies needed to alter the bodies somehow of the Nonmen and therefore needed direct physical contact.

[Shryke]

I think the Tekne was lost only after all of the Inchoroi were killed save Aurang and Aurax. The womb plague came at a time when the Inchoroi could still manufacture Sranc, Bashrag, and Wracu.

Which, like the skin-spies, were potentially trial-and-errored into existence, although at that time they probably knew more.

I believe what we know suggests they lost most of their knowledge base during the crash and then initial slaughter during the first war with the Nonmen. The Womb Plague and the Weapon Races took a long time to cook up.

Yeah, but if a guy who has been trying to kill you for the last several years comes to you all of a sudden and says drink this bottles and it will make you immortal... What would your reaction be? How is something like that going to work on anyone?

When he comes with proof it works and you are close to dying? Yeah, I think alot of people would take that deal.

They come to the Nonmen king in his infirmity and offer him a deal he can't refuse.

[Anatúrinbor]

When he comes with proof it works and you are close to dying? Yeah, I think alot of people would take that deal.

Actually, a lot of people with families wouldn't accept, and they certainly wouldn't allow that person anywhere near their children/spouse/relatives.

But we're talking about an entire nation here, the Nonmen were not on the verge of dying before the Inchoroi came to them.

I have a feeling that the process that conferred immortality might have had more to with dispersing some kind virus than the Inchies applying it to each individual.

If that happened then we should be hearing reports of the Inchoroi sorcery that doesn't leave a mark. Because a virus that travels through the air and spreads immortality is more sorcerous than sorcery itself.

On a side note, I think I read somewhere that Aurang and Aurax were born on the Ark? Is that true or am I misremembering?

[Shryke]

Actually, a lot of people with families wouldn't accept, and they certainly wouldn't allow that person anywhere near their children/spouse/relatives.

But we're talking about an entire nation here, the Nonmen were not on the verge of dying before the Inchoroi came to them.

I think you are completely wrong. The number of people who'd jump at a proven chance at immortality, despite the misgivings based on the purveyor, is very very large.

It likely starts with the old and trickles it's way down through society as people see it working.

Fear of and uncertainty about death is like a defining part of the human condition.

[Hello World]

On a side note, I think I read somewhere that Aurang and Aurax were born on the Ark? Is that true or am I misremembering?

Are you talking about the Incû-Holoinas? Or the Inchoroi Mothership that is yet to appear? Remember that Aurax said that he and his brother are the last of those who descended from the void, he never says that they're the last of the Inchoroi. I believe he was giving us a hint that there are more of his kind waiting somewhere and it's only a matter of time before they say fuck it, we'll just do it ourselves then.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Weren't the Inchies doctors and such among the Nonmen before the Plague? If so, that explains why they'd be trusted.

Regarding chanv and Qirri and all.. I don't think it could be only the ashes of the Few. Think about it:

- We know from Eli's POV in POT that the "greater part" of High Ainon's nobility were addicted to chanv.

- We know High Ainon has by far the largest population of the nations of the Three Seas, excepting only the combined nations of the Kianene Empire. They send literally tens of thousands of knights and other nobles to the Holy War. By extrapolation we can guess that their noble population must be in the hundreds of thousands.

- We know the Few and very few.

Taken together, if chanv were the ashes of the Few, how could there possibly be a large enough supply in Jekkhia to provide for so many? Even allowing for exaggeration on Eli's part.

However, we do know that the northern parts of Jekkhia are close to the Sranc-infested wilds east of Thunyerus and Ce Tydon. So I would posit that chanv is made from the ashes of Sranc, giving it similar yet distinct effects as Qirri.

[Kalbear]

Weren't the Inchies doctors and such among the Nonmen before the Plague? If so, that explains why they'd be trusted.

Kinda. They were made to be the physicians after they showed they could confer immortality. But it appeared to be a ruse, a way to administer the plague.

As to it being an accident or deliberate: you don't create sranc (in the image of your foe) and bashrag and hold them in surprise because you're possibly going to have a bad outcome. They were arming for a war that they knew was coming, a way to defeat the magic users. They grafted magic onto themselves in readiness for that war. It was a clear deliberate attempt to kill the nonmen. Now admittedly it was a hugely incompetent attempt, but it was a shot.

[Hello World]

- We know from Eli's POV in POT

What's Eli's POV in POT?

If that happened then we should be hearing reports of the Inchoroi sorcery that doesn't leave a mark. Because a virus that travels through the air and spreads immortality is more sorcerous than sorcery itself.

It's like that guy said, very advanced science is indistinguishable from magic.

Weren't the Inchies doctors and such among the Nonmen before the Plague? If so, that explains why they'd be trusted.

I think An Old Name was asking why they had trusted them to be their doctors...

[Wise Fool]

They are Nonman wives and daughters.

There is something that's bugging me about the womb plague. Why did the Inchoroi target the females only? They spent decades working as physicians to the Nonmen, presumably they could have spread a virus capable of killing all Nonmen, male and female. In fact it should have been even harder to manufacture a plague that specifically targets the females and not the males to any large degree.

Probably because it extends the amount and increases the overall degree of suffering and despair and hopelessness.

[Anatúrinbor]

As to it being an accident or deliberate: you don't create sranc (in the image of your foe) and bashrag and hold them in surprise because you're possibly going to have a bad outcome. They were arming for a war that they knew was coming, a way to defeat the magic users. They grafted magic onto themselves in readiness for that war. It was a clear deliberate attempt to kill the nonmen. Now admittedly it was a hugely incompetent attempt, but it was a shot.

It's kind of a long shot for you to try to kill someone and end up making them immortal by accident.

Are you talking about the Incû-Holoinas? Or the Inchoroi Mothership that is yet to appear? Remember that Aurax said that he and his brother are the last of those who descended from the void, he never says that they're the last of the Inchoroi. I believe he was giving us a hint that there are more of his kind waiting somewhere and it's only a matter of time before they say fuck it, we'll just do it ourselves then.

Ah... Yeah I was talking about the Incu-Holoinas, where the fuck are all the Inchoroi women anyway? You know before the Nonmen destroyed the Inchoroi, was there any mention of them?