Bakker XXII: All Aboard the Damnation Express

[Sci-2]

I thought it was speculated that this destructive walking Kellhus did may be a metagnostic form of skywalking where the tiny concussions of his footfall is massively amplified through the air to the ground as explosions?

It's a possibility. But how does it work via language specifying meaning? Does it merge the Concussion Cant with the levitation spell?

The other possibility I considered was the barrier of revolving stones, where Kellhus's intentions require the additional utteral to modify a spell that would move stone/dirt and produce a circular path around his person.

[Kalbear]

Really? You object to the idea that the gods feast on souls and then you come up with something even more outlandish and baseless?

I mentioned prophets as a possible answer to the question of how the people of Earwa could have learned about the outside and damnation.

how is it baseless? That's what psatma says to meppa almost directly. It's what the appendices say about worshipping specific gods. Or about ancestor worship.

And I think prophets are a way that people learned about damnation. But I don't think they were sent from the gods.

[Hello World]

If we create a computer simulation with it's own physics/logic and virtual characters with their own simulated consciousness, is it possible for those simulated characters to use their simulated tools and science to somehow build a device that can show them 'us'? or anything outside of the computer program?

I think it's theoretically possible to infer that you are in fact living in a computer program, but to actually see what's outside of it? I doubt it. But if this analogy is accurate in regards to the Inchoroi and the gods, then another question is can the programer pull one of those virtual beings to the outside and torture him? (I assume you're only making an analogy here because I doubt the Bakkerverse is a simulation.)

If the God and damnation in the Bakkerverse are in line with the Christian/Islamic views on the matter, which say that god and hell exist outside of the universe entirely, outside of time and space, then it's probably impossible that the Inchoroi could somehow dig at the fabric of that universe and discover damnation there. Unless you consider the following possibility...

Assuming that the God responsible for damnation is also the creator of the Inchoroi world. Then he must have known (or anticipated) that at least one species will reject him and go on a path of materialism and atheism while abandoning all morality, so as the ultimate troll move he took a piece of evidence that will show those people their own damnation and embedded it somewhere on their own planet, but it can only be discovered using a level of science that takes anywhere between 10 and 20 thousand years of progress to reach, a time when those peoples' damnation will have become inevitable. /End CP

What makes people think that the Inchoroi did not actually receive some revelation back in the day and that they had rejected it? What if the IF is false and Aurang just doesn't want to admit that his people knew about damnation all along but had not believed in it?

[Anatúrinbor]

Assuming that the God responsible for damnation is also the creator of the Inchoroi world. Then he must have known (or anticipated) that at least one species will reject him and go on a path of materialism and atheism while abandoning all morality, so as the ultimate troll move he took a piece of evidence that will show those people their own damnation and embedded it somewhere on their own planet, but it can only be discovered using a level of science that takes anywhere between 10 and 20 thousand years of progress to reach, a time when those peoples' damnation will have become inevitable. /End CP

Excellent. This must be it... :thumbsup: Are those going to come in daily installments?

And I think prophets are a way that people learned about damnation. But I don't think they were sent from the gods

Maybe not all of them, but how did the prophets know about damnation?

[karaddin]

It's a possibility. But how does it work via language specifying meaning? Does it merge the Concussion Cant with the levitation spell?

The other possibility I considered was the barrier of revolving stones, where Kellhus's intentions require the additional utteral to modify a spell that would move stone/dirt and produce a circular path around his person.

That's the kind of thing I was imagining yeah, don't ask me to figure out how it works though, I'm no Kellhus!

The teleportation metagnostic spell is depicted as being quite draining, although Kell can still do a ton of it obviously. The sky walking one at the basic level seems to be one that they almost maintain just on a subconscious level, so I'm wondering if by merging offensive power with it he is able to come up with an offensive technique that is easier to maintain than others? Perhaps the teleportation one is so draining because the base gnostic cant is sleep based.

[Shryke]

It's a possibility. But how does it work via language specifying meaning? Does it merge the Concussion Cant with the levitation spell?

The skywalker works by creating a reflection of the ground in the sky that the sorcerer walks upon.

I assume the footstamper works by simultaneously creating an inverse reflection of the footsteps on to the ground.

[unJon]

I'm not sure if this explains anything. If merely being subjected to pain makes them understand that it's bad and other creatures shouldn't be subjected to it, then they should have understood that concept a long time ago without any need for the IF, just the same way we did.

Because they modified themselves to be non-empathetic hedonistic nihilistic phalli. Obvs. I don't follow your analogy I humans at all and at any rate there are humans that don't understand that hurting others equal bad. Certainly billions of humans that do not believe it equals endless damnation for the perpetrator. Until we discover the IF that is and it shows us.

Re: how did prophets know about he Hundred. The Hundred walked the planet in the days of te Tusk. That part is not a lie.

[Happy Ent]

Because they modified themselves to be non-empathetic hedonistic nihilistic phalli.

They are not nihilistic at all! Cf the reaction of Big Fucking Edward in Eliezer Yudkowski’s Three World’s Collide. BFE belongs to another fictional race of post-semantic apocalypse hedonists, whose behaviour i find be consistent with the Inchoroi before their discovery of damnation:

"I have a question," said the false man. "I apologize if it causes any distress, but I must know if what our scientists say is correct. Has your kind really evolved separate information-processing mechanisms for deoxyribose nucleic acid versus electrochemical transmission of synaptic spikes?"

Akon blinked. Out of the corner of his eye, he saw figures trading cautious glances around the table. Akon wasn't sure where this question was leading, but, given that the aliens had already understood enough to ask, it probably wasn't safe to lie...

"I don't really understand the question's purpose," Akon said. "Our genes are made of deoxyribose nucleic acid. Our brains are made of neurons that transmit impulses through electrical and chemical -"

The fake man's head collapsed to his hands, and he began to bawl like a baby.

Akon's hand signed Help! out of the frame. But the Xenopsychologist shrugged cluelessly.

This was not going well.

The fake man suddenly unfolded his head from his hands. His cheeks were depicted as streaked with tears, but the face itself had stopped crying. "To wait so long," the voice said in a tone of absolute tragedy. "To wait so long, and come so far, only to discover that nowhere among the stars is any trace of love."

TL;DR: You can have values outside of the human moral spectrum.

[Anatúrinbor]

Because they modified themselves to be non-empathetic hedonistic nihilistic phalli. Obvs.

You said that the IF makes you feel your body getting violated by a bunch of ciphrang. How is that going to make you feel empathy if you've already removed those emotions genetically? And if that all it takes to make them understand that others shouldn't be treated like shit then they should've arrived at this remarkable revelation ages ago without any need for the IF. Or do individual Inchoroi never get victimized at any point in their lives until they see the IF?

I don't follow your analogy I humans at all and at any rate there are humans that don't understand that hurting others equal bad. Certainly billions of humans that do not believe it equals endless damnation for the perpetrator. Until we discover the IF that is and it shows us.

Your point is that the Inchoroi somehow arrived at the rule of don't do to others what you don't what done to yourself after seeing the IF, something that most humans understand because they can empathize with others. If we remove those emotions then we should no longer be capable of empathizing, even if we ourselves become the victim.

What I think is that the Inchoroi still do not understand that what they did to others is wrong even after seeing the IF.

[Gaston de Foix]

that's what I've always figured.

This. So the interesting question then becomes how. The answer must be (somehow) that Kellhus' is going to either change the nature of the Outside or the link between the Outside and Earwa or any agency that stamps meaning upon the world i.e. the Judging Eye. We've already seen Mimara in Cil-Aujis banish the Outside, and when you think about it - this MUST be foreshadowing to some extent.

[unJon]

You said that the IF makes you feel your body getting violated by a bunch of ciphrang. How is that going to make you feel empathy if you've already removed those emotions genetically? And if that all it takes to make them understand that others shouldn't be treated like shit then they should've arrived at this remarkable revelation ages ago without any need for the IF. Or do individual Inchoroi never get victimized at any point in their lives until they see the IF?

Your point is that the Inchoroi somehow arrived at the rule of don't do to others what you don't what done to yourself after seeing the IF, something that most humans understand because they can empathize with others. If we remove those emotions then we should no longer be capable of empathizing, even if we ourselves become the victim.

What I think is that the Inchoroi still do not understand that what they did to others is wrong even after seeing the IF.

you are misunderstanding. The question is how the Inchies came to understand the cause of their damnation (because damnation is eternally having you own skin boundaries violated). That is totally different than whether they think violating boundaries of skin of others is wrong (they don't think that).

@HE point taken but the Inchies come across as moral nihilists from a human point of view. Not existential nihilists necessarily as they see hedonism as the point of life.

[Hello World]

Are those going to come in daily installments?

Good idea.

This. So the interesting question then becomes how. The answer must be (somehow) that Kellhus' is going to either change the nature of the Outside or the link between the Outside and Earwa or any agency that stamps meaning upon the world i.e. the Judging Eye. We've already seen Mimara in Cil-Aujis banish the Outside, and when you think about it - this MUST be foreshadowing to some extent.

I think Kellhus wants to use Mimara to somehow resummon the No-God, or that he has come up with a new means of using her to bring about the second apocalypse.

If you think about it the Celmomian prophecy has multiple meanings IMO:

1. The most simple one, is that an Ansurimbor (Kellhus) will return at the end of the world, meaning that he is the harbinger. And the burden of saving the world from this apocalypse is Seswatha's burden, who in a way remains alive through his mandate schoolmen, especially Achamian.

2. Assuming that the NG is the resurrected form of Nau-Cayuti, whom Celmomas thinks is his son. Then what he's saying is that an Anasurimbor has returned right there and he is the apocalypse itself, and it's up to Seswatha to save the world from him. But an even subtler and more important meaning is that "Seswatha's burden" here means "Seswatha's son".

3. If you stretch a little bit and think of the prophecy as directed at the 'current Seswatha' - Achamian, then Seswatha's burden becomes Achamian's daughter, Mimara Yeah I know how all this sounds... whom the consult thinks they can use to summon the NG again or even something worse than the NG, which is why they saved her.

So in short, Kellhus is the harbinger, Mimara is the 2nd apocalypse, and Achamian is the savior.

[Gaston de Foix]

Good idea.

I think Kellhus wants to use Mimara to somehow resummon the No-God, or that he has come up with a new means of using her to bring about the second apocalypse.

If you think about it the Celmomian prophecy has multiple meanings IMO:

1. The most simple one, is that an Ansurimbor (Kellhus) will return at the end of the world, meaning that he is the harbinger. And the burden of saving the world from this apocalypse is Seswatha's burden, who in a way remains alive through his mandate schoolmen, especially Achamian.

2. Assuming that the NG is the resurrected form of Nau-Cayuti, whom Celmomas thinks is his son. Then what he's saying is that an Anasurimbor has returned right there and he is the apocalypse itself, and it's up to Seswatha to save the world from him. But an even subtler and more important meaning is that "Seswatha's burden" here means "Seswatha's son".

3. If you stretch a little bit and think of the prophecy as directed at the 'current Seswatha' - Achamian, then Seswatha's burden becomes Achamian's daughter, Mimara Yeah I know how all this sounds... whom the consult thinks they can use to summon the NG again or even something worse than the NG, which is why they saved her.

So in short, Kellhus is the harbinger, Mimara is the 2nd apocalypse, and Achamian is the savior.

I agree with one important part of this, that Achamian will be the last person left alive with Seswatha within him. Already we know that his desires are shaping the dreams that all the Mandati such as Eskeles are having.

The proximate cause of this can either be the conversation Kellhus' had with Seswatha or with Achiaman's renunciation of Kellhus' at the same time all the Mandati make themselves subservient to him.

Am I wrong in understanding the Celmomian prophecy conflates the events of the first Apocalypse (Seswatha's burden of saving the world) with the events of the second?

[Anatúrinbor]

you are misunderstanding. The question is how the Inchies came to understand the cause of their damnation (because damnation is eternally having you own skin boundaries violated). That is totally different than whether they think violating boundaries of skin of others is wrong (they don't think that).

Oh, I've been misreading a lot today...

snip

I agree with number one. I don't see where people came up with the idea that Nau-cayuti is the No-God? He was taken to Golgotterath because the consult wanted to find the Heron Spear, not to turn him into the No-God.

Am I wrong in understanding the Celmomian prophecy conflates the events of the first Apocalypse (Seswatha's burden of saving the world) with the events of the second?

It could have multiple meanings... But I agree it probably means the 2nd.

Where do prophecies come from anyway? The gods?

[Kalbear]

I suspect prophesies come from the outside being all time. Much like akka is seeing and potentially influencing the past and the white luck warrior experiences all events as they happen, the outside exists in all times. Prophesy happens when you see events through the outside.

[Gaston de Foix]

Oh, I've been misreading a lot today...

I agree with number one. I don't see where people came up with the idea that Nau-cayuti is the No-God? He was taken to Golgotterath because the consult wanted to find the Heron Spear, not to turn him into the No-God.

It could have multiple meanings... But I agree it probably means the 2nd.

Where do prophecies come from anyway? The gods?

In the case of the Celmomian prophecy, Celmomas says as much - if I remember "The Gods cry out to me...".

[Francis Buck]

I suspect prophesies come from the outside being all time. Much like akka is seeing and potentially influencing the past and the white luck warrior experiences all events as they happen, the outside exists in all times. Prophesy happens when you see events through the outside.

Agreed on this. All the clues we've been given imply that the Outside is in some fashion timeless/spaceless (infinite in all directions). That's why I think Kellhus reached through the Outside to get Serwe's heart.

[Hello World]

Agreed on this. All the clues we've been given imply that the Outside is in some fashion timeless/spaceless (infinite in all directions). That's why I think Kellhus reached through the Outside to get Serwe's heart.

Makes me wonder how damnation can occur in a timeless/spaceless void.

Damnation.

Experience shredded into a thousand strings, each clawed and burned and burned, sucked like bottomless bones. Agony. Anguish. Horror. Lament. Shame… Shrieking-thrashing-screaming through the throat of his every memory, innumerable and one, groaning-choking-vomiting, his every particle a unique agony, a bereavement, a weeping-howling-scratching out eyes that grew and grew to witness anew, while burning-blistering-breaking–

There is a difference I think between an infinite amount of time and timelessness All the individual agonies described above are temporal events, they can't occur without time.

[Anatúrinbor]

Is that supposed to literally describe damnation, or is Shaeonanra only trying to approximate what it felt like?

[Gaston de Foix]

quick question - was Cu'jara Cinmoi a Quya mage? Do we have any definite information on this? I'm just wondering whether qirri is made from the bodies of those who are Quya and Ishroi, both.

Btw, what did female nonmen look like? Any clue?