R + L = J v 69

[Lyse Stark]

Good analysis.

Even though it's a bit overused in many horror flicks, the idea of something haunted or cursed because its built on a Native American burial ground actually what I thought about with the imagry of Harrenhal.

I'm actually thinking this is not necessarily out of the realm of possibility.

One of Martins themes are parallels, (i.e., "Ice and Fire," Targaryen/Starks, Jon and Dany), in terms of journey and awakening.

Jons coming into who and what he is via his "death" is something I speculate will be very similar to Dany, so awakening his own dragon as unique as he is and different than the other three would not be a deviation from that theme of "parallels."

True. Jon was raised in Northern culture, with Northern customs and beliefs, so it wouldn't be a stretch that Jon in symbolic terms would be a Ice Dragon because he is used to the harsh environment there.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

The parallel between Jon & the dragon hatching dream really meaning Egg asserting himself in "The Mystery Knight" has been talked about before. It seems to be a logical conclusion.

[Ygrain]

So, having watched the trailer for Season 4 with Oberyn (or at least I think it was him), I guess there might be an opportunity to get some R+L backstory, as the revenge for Elia is inevitably tied to the events preceding the rebellion. I must admit I'm getting curious how they are going to go about it.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So, having watched the trailer for Season 4 with Oberyn (or at least I think it was him), I guess there might be an opportunity to get some R+L backstory, as the revenge for Elia is inevitably tied to the events preceding the rebellion. I must admit I'm getting curious how they are going to go about it.

Yes, that was Oberyn indeed :D

With Oberyn's arrival, we should be introduced (in the show) to the Sack of KL, and the backstory off Robert's Rebellion. Perhaps Jojen tells Bran the story of the tournament in this season, which would fall nicely in one line with Oberyn and his story about Elia and Gregor.

[FittleLinger]

Yes, I thought about it too, and my first thought was that they would change/omit the whole Elia thing, but on second thought - that's impossible - Oberyn's motives should be explained. So I guess we are (finally) getting some R+L related stuff, more or less.

[Ygrain]

Yes, that was Oberyn indeed :D

With Oberyn's arrival, we should be introduced (in the show) to the Sack of KL, and the backstory off Robert's Rebellion. Perhaps Jojen tells Bran the story of the tournament in this season, which would fall nicely in one line with Oberyn and his story about Elia and Gregor.

That's what I think, as well.

[Mithras]

“Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel,” the old man had said, “the same counsel that I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born.” The old man felt Jon’s face. “You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.”

I think this passage is very interesting because

1) Aemon is giving the same advice to a direct descendant of Egg

2) Egg was a grown man with sons of his own but he was still a boy when he was offered the throne. Jon is the LC but he is still a boy as Aemon stated.

3) Egg had an innocence, a sweetness they all loved. Jon has an innocence too. Although he did nothing, he had to grow up a bastard's life. And there are numerous references to sweetness which can be related to Jon.

4) It takes an Aegon to rule, not an Egg. Aegon was a dragon. Hence, it takes a dragon to rule, not an egg. Jon is the dragon egg yet to hatch.

5) Aemon touching Jon's face was a very strong moment. I think it represents Jon's connection to his ancestry.

There is another advice Aemon gave to Jon.

“Knowledge is a weapon, Jon. Arm yourself well before you ride forth to battle.”

“I will.” Jon felt something wet and cold upon his face. When he raised his eyes, he saw that it was snowing. A bad omen.

Jon was referring to a previous dialogue with Stannis:

“I have a name, Your Grace.”

“Snow. Was ever a name more ill-omened?”

Jon felt snow melting on his face when he was told to arm himself with knowledge. This should be read as Jon felt his false identity (snow) melting off his face when he was told to arm himself with the knowledge of his true identity.

[Ygrain]

I think this passage is very interesting because

1) Aemon is giving the same advice to a direct descendant of Egg

2) Egg was a grown man with sons of his own but he was still a boy when he was offered the throne. Jon is the LC but he is still a boy as Aemon stated.

3) Egg had an innocence, a sweetness they all loved. Jon has an innocence too. Although he did nothing, he had to grow up a bastard's life. And there are numerous references to sweetness which can be related to Jon.

4) It takes an Aegon to rule, not an Egg. Aegon was a dragon. Hence, it takes a dragon to rule, not an egg. Jon is the dragon egg yet to hatch.

5) Aemon touching Jon's face was a very strong moment. I think it represents Jon's connection to his ancestry.

There is another advice Aemon gave to Jon.

Jon was referring to a previous dialogue with Stannis:

Jon felt snow melting on his face when he was told to arm himself with knowledge. This should be read as Jon felt his false identity (snow) melting off his face when he was told to arm himself with the knowledge of his true identity.

I really like this connection!

- Which makes me think: it has been proposed that "salt and smoke" of the prophecy may actually refer to winter landscape described by someone who had never seen snow. Now, has it been proposed what a person who had never seen ice would think it is? Some kind of crystal? As in, stone?

We have Jon's dream of fighting encased in black ice, and Bran's dream (which I cannot find now, where was it?) of Jon's body growing hard and cold, could there be a connection?

[Mithras]

I really like this connection!

- Which makes me think: it has been proposed that "salt and smoke" of the prophecy may actually refer to winter landscape described by someone who had never seen snow. Now, has it been proposed what a person who had never seen ice would think it is? Some kind of crystal? As in, stone?

We have Jon's dream of fighting encased in black ice, and Bran's dream (which I cannot find now, where was it?) of Jon's body growing hard and cold, could there be a connection?

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt.

[Alia of the knife]

So, having watched the trailer for Season 4 with Oberyn (or at least I think it was him), I guess there might be an opportunity to get some R+L backstory, as the revenge for Elia is inevitably tied to the events preceding the rebellion. I must admit I'm getting curious how they are going to go about it.

Agreed, And it seems Danys character is going in a pronounced direction.

[Alia of the knife]

I think this passage is very interesting because

1) Aemon is giving the same advice to a direct descendant of Egg

2) Egg was a grown man with sons of his own but he was still a boy when he was offered the throne. Jon is the LC but he is still a boy as Aemon stated.

3) Egg had an innocence, a sweetness they all loved. Jon has an innocence too. Although he did nothing, he had to grow up a bastard's life. And there are numerous references to sweetness which can be related to Jon.

4) It takes an Aegon to rule, not an Egg. Aegon was a dragon. Hence, it takes a dragon to rule, not an egg. Jon is the dragon egg yet to hatch.

5) Aemon touching Jon's face was a very strong moment. I think it represents Jon's connection to his ancestry.

There is another advice Aemon gave to Jon.

Jon was referring to a previous dialogue with Stannis:

Jon felt snow melting on his face when he was told to arm himself with knowledge. This should be read as Jon felt his false identity (snow) melting off his face when he was told to arm himself with the knowledge of his true identity.

Really great connections and analysis. :)

[The guy from the Vale]

I really like this connection!

- Which makes me think: it has been proposed that "salt and smoke" of the prophecy may actually refer to winter landscape described by someone who had never seen snow. Now, has it been proposed what a person who had never seen ice would think it is? Some kind of crystal? As in, stone?

We have Jon's dream of fighting encased in black ice, and Bran's dream (which I cannot find now, where was it?) of Jon's body growing hard and cold, could there be a connection?

Bran's dream of Jon becoming hard and cold is way back in AGoT... it's the one where he is in a comatose state.

[Ygrain]

Bran's dream of Jon becoming hard and cold is way back in AGoT... it's the one where he is in a comatose state.

I thought so but I cannot remember the exact phrasing and thus cannot locate it via search :-(

[Moondancer]

The parallel between Jon & the dragon hatching dream really meaning Egg asserting himself in "The Mystery Knight" has been talked about before. It seems to be a logical conclusion.

Agreed. I also believe that the - three heads has the dragon - sequence is tied to the same generation of Targaryens, namely Daeron, Egg's elder brother.

[Moondancer]

I thought so but I cannot remember the exact phrasing and thus cannot locate it via search :-(

If you have an ebook, search for "stirring" [dragons] or "Asshai".

[The guy from the Vale]

IIrc, it was the chapter Bran III, if that helps...

[Ghost's Shadow]

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

I still say Bran cannot see the future, and that it's the memory of his family and Arya in particular that he's trying to push away, to become a man of the Night's Watch.

[Ygrain]

Thanks for the quote.

I do agree that at this point, it is rather a reflection of the present - but that doesn't mean we aren't getting a subtle foreshadowing, as well. And that part with the Wall looking like a blue crystal is perfectly in line with the point I presented.

[Mithras]

I still say Bran cannot see the future, and that it's the memory of his family and Arya in particular that he's trying to push away, to become a man of the Night's Watch.

There are at least ten references where Jon enjoyed the warmth of Ghost's shaggy fur. It could be related to that or this:

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread.

And in the mouth of the empty tomb that waited for Lord Eddard Stark, beneath his stately granite likeness, the six fugitives huddled round their little cache of bread and water and dried meat.

This one is from Bran's hiding in the crypts. When Jon is in comatose state, he will descend into the crypts in his dream to speak with dead Starks.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I still say Bran cannot see the future, and that it's the memory of his family and Arya in particular that he's trying to push away, to become a man of the Night's Watch.

Good analysis of that here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98873-a-closer-look-at-brans-coma-dream/

:)