R + L = J v 69

[Mithras]

The parallel is with Stannis, seeing that both happen to have an iron sense of honor. Honestly speaking, I count this as a negative, seeing how slim the chances of Stannis are to sit the iron throne, or become King.

Jaime reflected he served a madman and a drunkard. Jon laughed like a madman or a drunkard. These evidences show that, regardless of the context, Jon is somehow tied to kings all the time.

[Ygrain]

I believe I haven't seen this idea by jet199 around yet:

Lyanna turns up in a few dreams. I wonder of she is in the weirwood web, she us seen with tears of blood a couple of times which is associated with weirwoods. If so she may be more involved with Jon's life than we think.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

True. Jon was raised in Northern culture, with Northern customs and beliefs, so it wouldn't be a stretch that Jon in symbolic terms would be a Ice Dragon because he is used to the harsh environment there.

Well, there already is a white dragon, Viserion.

[FittleLinger]

I know that's not a small request but can someone with a kindle or similar device please find and quote all the instances where Jon is flexing his hand?

I think I'm seeing a pattern which could be R+L related.

[J. Stargaryen]

I know that's not a small request but can someone with a kindle or similar device please find and quote all the instances where Jon is flexing his hand?

I think I'm seeing a pattern which could be R+L related.

Here's AGoT, ACoK and ASoS:

AGoT:

“Healing.” Jon flexed his bandaged fingers to show him. He had burned himself more badly than he knew throwing the flaming drapes, and his right hand was swathed in silk halfway to the elbow. At the time he’d felt nothing; the agony had come after. His cracked red skin oozed fluid, and fearsome blood blisters rose between his fingers, big as roaches. “The maester says I’ll have scars, but otherwise the hand should be as good as it was before.”

- Jon VIII

Jon raised the hood of his heavy cloak and gave the horse her head. Castle Black was silent and still as he rode out, with Ghost racing at his side. Men watched from the Wall behind him, he knew, but their eyes were turned north, not south. No one would see him go, no one but Sam Tarly, struggling back to his feet in the dust of the old stables. He hoped Sam hadn’t hurt himself, falling like that. He was so heavy and so ungainly, it would be just like him to break a wrist or twist his ankle getting out of the way. “I warned him,” Jon said aloud. “It was nothing to do with him, anyway.” He flexed his burned hand as he rode, opening and closing the scarred fingers. They still pained him, but it felt good to have the wrappings off.

- Jon IX

---

ACoK:

“You can wield Longclaw despite the pain?”

“Well enough.” Jon flexed his fingers, opening and closing his fist the way the maester had shown him. “I’m to work the fingers every day to keep them nimble, as Maester Aemon said.”

- Jon I

As he rode, Jon peeled off his glove to air his burned fingers. Ugly things. He remembered suddenly how he used to muss Arya’s hair. His little stick of a sister. He wondered how she was faring. It made him a little sad to think that he might never muss her hair again. He began to flex his hand, opening and closing the fingers. If he let his sword hand stiffen and grow clumsy, it well might be the end of him, he knew. A man needed his sword beyond the Wall.

- Jon II

The wind was blowing briskly when he left. By morning, frost would cover the ground, and the tent ropes would be stiff and frozen. A few fingers of spiced wine sloshed in the bottom of the kettle. Jon fed fresh wood to the fire and put the kettle over the flames to reheat. He flexed his fingers as he waited, squeezing and spreading until the hand tingled. The first watch had taken up their stations around the perimeter of the camp. Torches flickered all along the ringwall. The night was moonless, but a thousand stars shone overhead.

- Jon IV

Jon gave his garron the last of the oats and stroked his shaggy mane while Ghost prowled restlessly amongst the rocks. He pulled his gloves on tighter and flexed his burnt fingers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men.

- Jon VIII

---

ASoS:

The wildling leader fixed him with an unfriendly stare. “Might be you fooled these others, crow, but don’t think you’ll be fooling Mance. He’ll take one look a’ you and know you’re false. And when he does, I’ll make a cloak o’ your wolf there, and open your soft boy’s belly and sew a weasel up inside.”

Jon’s sword hand opened and closed, flexing the burned fingers beneath the glove, but Longspear Ryk only laughed. “And where would you find a weasel in the snow?”

- Jon I

He flexed the burned fingers of his sword hand. Longclaw was slung to his saddle, the carved stone wolf’s-head pommel and soft leather grip of the great bastard sword within easy reach.

- Jon II

“Crow,” the Magnar warned, “do not take me for Mance Rayder. If you lie to me, I will have your tongue.”

“I’m no crow, and won’t be called a liar.” Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand.

- Jon III

She grinned at that, showing Jon the crooked teeth that he had somehow come to love. Wildling to the bone, he thought again, with a sick sad feeling in the pit of his stomach. He flexed the fingers of his sword hand, and wondered what Ygritte would do if she knew his heart. Would she betray him if he sat her down and told her that he was still Ned Stark’s son and a man of the Night’s Watch? He hoped not, but he dare not take that risk. Too many lives depended on his somehow reaching Castle Black before the Magnar… assuming he found a chance to escape the wildlings.

- Jon V

Beneath the trees were all the wildlings in the world; raiders and giants, wargs and skinchangers, mountain men, salt sea sailors, ice river cannibals, cave dwellers with dyed faces, dog chariots from the Frozen Shore, Hornfoot men with their soles like boiled leather, all the queer wild folk Mance had gathered to break the Wall. This is not your land, Jon wanted to shout at them. There is no place for you here. Go away. He could hear Tormund Giantsbane laughing at that. “You know nothing, Jon Snow,” Ygritte would have said. He flexed his sword hand, opening and closing the fingers, though he knew full well that swords would not come into it up here.

- Jon VIII

I should have stayed in that cave with Ygritte. If there was a life beyond this one, he hoped to tell her that. She will claw my face the way the eagle did, and curse me for a coward, but I’ll tell her all the same. He flexed his sword hand, as Maester Aemon had taught him. The habit had become part of him, and he would need his fingers to be limber to have even half a chance of murdering Mance Rayder.

- Jon X

[Arya kiddin']

Jaime reflected he served a madman and a drunkard. Jon laughed like a madman or a drunkard. These evidences show that, regardless of the context, Jon is somehow tied to kings all the time.

Yes I've seen those references thrown around a lot. I'm not sure about them honestly.

[FrozenFire3]

I know that's not a small request but can someone with a kindle or similar device please find and quote all the instances where Jon is flexing his hand?

I think I'm seeing a pattern which could be R+L related.

And here is ADwD:

More followed when they saw that no harm had come to those who went before. Then more, until it was a steady stream. Queen's men in studded jacks and halfhelms handed each passing man, woman, or child a piece of white weirwood: a stick, a splintered branch as pale as broken bone, a spray of blood-red leaves. A piece of the old gods to feed the new. Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The heat from the fire pit was palpable even at a distance; for the wildlings had to be blistering. He saw men cringing as they neared the flames, heard children cry.

"Do I intrude?" asked Jon. "Not at all." Clydas opened the door wider. "I was mulling wine. Will my lord take a cup?"

"With pleasure." His hands were stiff from cold. He pulled off his gloves and flexed his fingers. Clydas returned to the heart to stir wine.

"And saved the Wall, mayhaps," said Bowen Marsh. "These are enemies we speak of. Let them pray amongst ruins, and if their gods send ships to carry them off to a better world, well and good. In this world I have no food to feed them."

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. "Cotter Pyke's galleys sail past Hardhome from time to time. He tells me there is no shelter there but the caves. The screaming caves, his men call them. Mother Mole and those who followed her will perish there of cold and starvation. Hundreds of them. Thousands."

"Thousands of enemies. Thousands of wildlings."

Thousands of people, Jon thought. Men, women, children. Anger rose inside him, but when he spoke his voice was quiet and cold.

In the haunted forest to the north, the shadows of the afternoon crept through the trees. The western sky was a blaze of red, but to the east the first stars were peeking out. Jon Snow flexed the fingers of his sword hand, remebering all he had lost.

Lord Bowen, you shall collect the tolls. The gold and silver, the amber, the torques and armbands and necklaces. Sort it all, count it, see that it reaches Eastwatch safely."

"Yes, Lord Snow," said Bowen Marsh.

And Jon thought, "Ice," she said, "and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel." His sword hand flexed. The wind was rising.

"He has Lightbringer. He talks of heads upon the walls of Winterfell. He knows about the spearwives and their number." He knows about Mance Rayder. "No. There is truth in there."

"I won't say you're wrong. What do you mean to do, crow?"

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again.

'Fingers flexing' is often accompanied by a dichotomic ice-fire/cold-heat imagery either literal or metaphorical (as in cold anger or Melisandre's fiery vision of frozen blood).

No 'fingers flexing' findings in AFfC, for obvious reasons.

[BaronZbimg]

Hi everybody,

I'm new to this forum. I've recently finished reading the awesomeness that is ASOIAF and have been wandering around these forums ever since. I'm aware of most of the different theories around, R+L=J being the surest of them all, or so it seems.

I agree that absolutely everything seems to point in that direction, but there's only one element I have a hard time fitting in the said theory. In Chapter 35 of AGOT, after leaving the brothel and just before being attacked by Jaime Lannister, Ned thinks of Rhaegar for the first time in years. How is it even possible if he has brought up Rhaegar's son as his son ? How is it possible when he's had Jon Snow under his nose every day since the Tower of Joy ? This seems like the weakest link in the theory.

Maybe this has already been explained, so please forgive me if it's the case, but I really need this to be cleared up!

Thank you all!

[FrozenFire3]

Hi everybody,

I'm new to this forum. I've recently finished reading the awesomeness that is ASOIAF and have been wandering around these forums ever since. I'm aware of most of the different theories around, R+L=J being the surest of them all, or so it seems.

I agree that absolutely everything seems to point in that direction, but there's only one element I have a hard time fitting in the said theory. In Chapter 35 of AGOT, after leaving the brothel and just before being attacked by Jaime Lannister, Ned thinks of Rhaegar for the first time in years. How is it even possible if he has brought up Rhaegar's son as his son ? How is it possible when he's had Jon Snow under his nose every day since the Tower of Joy ? This seems like the weakest link in the theory.

Maybe this has already been explained, so please forgive me if it's the case, but I really need this to be cleared up!

Thank you all!

Welcome to the boards! Yes, this has already been discussed at length. Read this thorough analysis by Lady G, it will clear up things quite a bit :) And, no, that wasn't the first time Ned thought about Rhaegar ;)

[BaronZbimg]

Welcome to the boards! Yes, this has already been discussed at length. Read this thorough analysis by Lady G, it will clear up things quite a bit :) And, no, that wasn't the first time Ned thought about Rhaegar ;)

Great read, thank you so much.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I know that's not a small request but can someone with a kindle or similar device please find and quote all the instances where Jon is flexing his hand?

I think I'm seeing a pattern which could be R+L related.

Now I'm curious to read your theory. :)

How's Schmendrick, was it, doing with his? :P

[Lyse Stark]

And here is ADwD:

'Fingers flexing' is often accompanied by a dichotomic ice-fire/cold-heat imagery either literal or metaphorical (as in cold anger or Melisandre's fiery vision of frozen blood).

No 'fingers flexing' findings in AFfC, for obvious reasons.

Interesting. When Jon flexes his hand, the imagery that accompany him make me think of obsidian because it is frozen fire, and Jon is himself a union of Old Valyrian and First Men blood.

[CallmeLordofLight]

hahaha 69.

Seriously though, it's awesome how big this thread has gotten. It's clear that there's still a lot to discuss about this.

To me, the most interesting part of this theory is that Jon's the product of the union of 2 characters with some particular traits.

Rhaegar = a romantic, melancholic man with a fiery obsession for the fulfilment of a prophecy. A man who is seen by everyone as the perfect king-to-be.

Lyanna = a girl who does not want to abide to the customs and traditions of marriage, a passionate woman with a strong sense of justice.

These traits have to play an important part in Jon's arc. We have already seen some of them. But to me the most important, and the reason he was born, is that they were passionate. Something that Jon has to struggle with, his personality is closer to Ned's cold manners. I think the biggest confirmation of this theory would be for him to do something really foolish for love (not brotherly love but couple's love). Something that parallels his parent's biggest moment.

[Lyse Stark]

hahaha 69.

Seriously though, it's awesome how big this thread has gotten. It's clear that there's still a lot to discuss about this.

To me, the most interesting part of this theory is that Jon's the product of the union of 2 characters with some particular traits.

Rhaegar = a romantic, melancholic man with a fiery obsession for the fulfilment of a prophecy. A man who is seen by everyone as the perfect king-to-be.

Lyanna = a girl who does not want to abide to the customs and traditions of marriage, a passionate woman with a strong sense of justice.

These traits have to play an important part in Jon's arc. We have already seen some of them. But to me the most important, and the reason he was born, is that they were passionate. Something that Jon has to struggle with, his personality is closer to Ned's cold manners. I think the biggest confirmation of this theory would be for him to do something really foolish for love (not brotherly love but couple's love). Something that parallels his parent's biggest moment.

Haha when I saw the number 69 I thought of a certain sex position that let both parties indulge in the Lord's Kiss.

[Fire Eater]

His Grace is sleeping peaceful."

Let him have a sweeter dream than mine, and a kinder waking. "Who is with the king?"

"Ser Loras has that honor, if it please you."

Cersei's dream was related to her sitting the IT as the reigning queen. The king will be dreaming after the Ides of Marsh, and he will learn his heritage related to who has the right to sit the IT and be king. A kinslayer, Tyrion, was in her dream, and a kinslayer, BR, will be in Jon's. Also, Loras is with Tommen, whose sigil is a rose while Dany's vision is of a blue rose growing out of a chink in the Wall.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

I know that's not a small request but can someone with a kindle or similar device please find and quote all the instances where Jon is flexing his hand?

I think I'm seeing a pattern which could be R+L related.

So Martin has given Jon a tic. I'm curious to hear this tie in.

[jet199]

I don't know if anyone has brought this up before by I noticed something interesting about an SSM which is often quoted to disprove Tyrion's Targness.

Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

Notice there is no protest from GRRM saying we don't know that Jon's mother is dead or that she is not dead. He just accepts the statement as a known fact.

It's maybe not great proof but it certainly rules out Wylla at Starfall, who is still alive and well and maybe Ashara as well as she died sometime after giving birth.

[Ygrain]

I don't know if anyone has brought this up before by I noticed something interesting about an SSM which is often quoted to disprove Tyrion's Targness.

Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

Notice there is no protest from GRRM saying we don't know that Jon's mother is dead or that she is not dead. He just accepts the statement as a known fact.

It's maybe not great proof but it certainly rules out Wylla at Starfall, who is still alive and well and maybe Ashara as well as she died sometime after giving birth.

The triplet mother, father, Ned also indicates that Ned is not Jon's parent, which means that Wylla, Ashara and FMD are not mothers, either.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ashara as Jon's mother is out of the question anyhow, IMHO. She was dishonered at Harrenhal, and if that's also when she got pregnant, she would have given birth before the Rebellion.

Yet Barristan mentions how Ashara threw herself of the tower shortly after giving birth to a still born girl. It could be that Barristan's memory isn't all that well, but Ashara was his one big love, and it would be strange to remember something significant that happened to her so wrongly.

Ned met Ashara at Harrenhall, and was either in the Eyrie, in the north, or fighting in the Riverlands for the duration of the time in between Harrenhal and the end of the Rebellion. So he couldn't have gotten her pregnant after Harrenhall.

I think that would rule out Ashara Dayne as Jon's mother in any case.

As to Wylla, when would he have met her? Not 9 months prior to returning North, since Wylla is from Starfall.

I truly wonder if Catelyn never considered all of this...

[Greymoon]

I truly wonder if Catelyn never considered all of this...

Catelyn not wondering about it is less curious than the fact that no one in KG or Dorne seems to wonder about it. She was only on the sidelines of the war, and as a young woman might not have been very interested in politics - or might have been kept in the dark by her father. I expect she wanted to be informed of battles and of whether Ned survived or not, but I don't expect that she or Hoster were aware of Ned's movements at all times - or of the number of "camp followers," etc...

Catelyn doesn't know much about Ashara besides that she threw herself off a tower in grief, that she was beautiful, a friend of Elia, and that Ned danced with her. In Catelyn's mind I think it's entirely possible that Ned and Ashara met sometime during the rebellion. As for Wylla, as far as I'm aware Catelyn doesn't even know of her existence. There was a wet-nurse with Jon Snow at Winterfell certainly, but I don't think it was Wylla.

Cersei suspects that Jon's mother was Ashara as well - but, Cersei was only a young girl then too, younger than Catelyn. The strange thing is indeed that Barristan Selmy doesn't tick at all - surely if Cersei heard rumors that a "child was stolen from Starfall," then Barristan must have heard as well? Not to mention that he didn't know where three of his sworn brothers were, one among them being his own lord commander - the story that Ned killed Arthur Dayne is no big secret - at least not in the north.

It’s queer that Jaime doesn’t tick either – but then again, Jaime doesn’t seem interested in rumors much and I expect he had enough to worry about during the rebellion that he didn’t spare much thought to the missing KG or Ashara Dayne. Jaime is a bit more excusable than Barristan in any case, because Barristan fancied himself in love with Ashara and actually was aware of her "dishonor"... but maybe Barristan is really bad at math.

Still, none of this explains how Varys missed that bit. He's the master spy. Even if he didn't have little birds in Dorne or Winterfell, the very rumors that Cersei heard about Ashara must have made it back to him - the fact that three sworn brothers were missing couldn't have gone unnoticed either.

Is Varys purposely keeping quiet about that because he doesn't want anyone to start doubting Jon's birth - so that no one would challenge fAegons claim? If he were aware of Jon, wouldn't he have wanted him dead? or is he keeping it under wraps just in case he needs Jon' s claim/support later? I could see that happening. Viserys, Dany, Jon all could/can be used to broker alliances, with Jon being the bridge to the north...