R + L = J v 69

[Ygrain]

I truly wonder if Catelyn never considered all of this...

I think that Cat's problem is that she wasn't exactly informed about Ned's whereabouts, not of the whereabouts of Jon's potential mother (s). She has no idea where Ashara or Wylla was during the war (and BTW, we don't know, even though it's plausible, that Wylla is from Starfall, we only know that she has been in the service of the Daynes for quite some time).

- It is also quite peculiar but we actually never learn of Wylla from Cat's - PoV - we know from Sansa's that Jon's mother was supposedly commonborn but Cat never mentions hearing this particular gossip. Nor does anyone mentions Wylla's name at Winterfell, either, Arya never heard it before young Ned Dayne told her.

I think that Cat's musing about Ashara, contrasted with Robert's enquiry about Wylla and both followed by an icy response "we're not talking about this", are basically waving a big red flag at the reader "mystery here". Furthermore, Ned's behaviour doesn't really make sense - if it's just some commonborn woman, why not tell his wife, and if it's Ashara, why not tell his childhood friend (and king, which makes Ned's lie a treason). Apparently, one of the versions is a lie; less apparently, both are, when Ned thinks that he is not the type to take carnal pleasures and that he always keeps his vows. Lying is indeed the only sin that can be laid at Ned's door - we see him lie repeatedly to protect his family, and he who normally obssesses with truth, says outright that some lies are not without honour. IIRC, he says it to Arya, when she admits having lied that Nymeria couldn't be found... which is another lie to protect.

[Ygrain]

Catelyn not wondering about it is less curious than the fact that no one in KG or Dorne seems to wonder about it. She was only on the sidelines of the war, and as a young woman might not have been very interested in politics - or might have been kept in the dark by her father. I expect she wanted to be informed of battles and of whether Ned survived or not, but I don't expect that she or Hoster were aware of Ned's movements at all times - or of the number of "camp followers," etc...

Catelyn doesn't know much about Ashara besides that she threw herself off a tower in grief, that she was beautiful, a friend of Elia, and that Ned danced with her. In Catelyn's mind I think it's entirely possible that Ned and Ashara met sometime during the rebellion. As for Wylla, as far as I'm aware Catelyn doesn't even know of her existence. There was a wet-nurse with Jon Snow at Winterfell certainly, but I don't think it was Wylla.

Cersei suspects that Jon's mother was Ashara as well - but, Cersei was only a young girl then too, younger than Catelyn. The strange thing is indeed that Barristan Selmy doesn't tick at all - surely if Cersei heard rumors that a "child was stolen from Starfall," then Barristan must have heard as well? Not to mention that he didn't know where three of his sworn brothers were, one among them being his own lord commander - the story that Ned killed Arthur Dayne is no big secret - at least not in the north.

It’s queer that Jaime doesn’t tick either – but then again, Jaime doesn’t seem interested in rumors much and I expect he had enough to worry about during the rebellion that he didn’t spare much thought to the missing KG or Ashara Dayne. Jaime is a bit more excusable than Barristan in any case, because Barristan fancied himself in love with Ashara and actually was aware of her "dishonor"... but maybe Barristan is really bad at math.

Still, none of this explains how Varys missed that bit. He's the master spy. Even if he didn't have little birds in Dorne or Winterfell, the very rumors that Cersei heard about Ashara must have made it back to him - the fact that three sworn brothers were missing couldn't have gone unnoticed either.

Is Varys purposely keeping quiet about that because he doesn't want anyone to start doubting Jon's birth - so that no one would challenge fAegons claim? If he were aware of Jon, wouldn't he have wanted him dead? or is he keeping it under wraps just in case he needs Jon' s claim/support later? I could see that happening. Viserys, Dany, Jon all could/can be used to broker alliances, with Jon being the bridge to the north...

I don't think any such rumour existed, and that Varys not knowing is not so surprising.

Ashara getting pregnant and leaving KL in disgrace would have been widely known. However, her child being stillborn, or whatever happened with it, wouldn't be advertised across Westeros. Some people at the court or close to the family would know but there was no reason to inform the Lannisters. What Cersei (and most of Westeros) know is that Ashara was in Harrenhal when Ned was, she had a child, committed suicide after Ned's visit to Starfall after the Rebellion, and Ned has a bastard in Winterfell. Perfectly enough to jump at conclusions.

Now, concerning the absence of the three KG: it was known since the beginning that Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar but Rhaegar's hideout was uknown - not inconceivable, if they kept a low profile in an area that was not densely populated and without much traffic. No encounters, no news spreading, no birds getting wind of it. When Rhaegar returns to KL, he has to explain the absence of the KG, and can do so in the way that GRRM basically confirmed: they stayed behind at his orders. I imagine Aerys was not happy to hear that but there was nothing he could do, and the remaining KG had no reason to question the absence of their brethren. It's only after the Sack that the game changes, but there is one crucial piece of information that we have but no-one else: that the KG were up-to-date with the events. If Ned left it out, then the KG are simply following Rhaegar's last orders because they have no reason to do otherwise.

[Mithras]

Does anybody think of parallels between Jon's story arc and Theseus?

Aegeus, one of the primordial kings of Athens, found a bride, Aethra who was the daughter of king Pittheus at Troezen, a small city southwest of Athens. On their wedding night, Aethra waded through the sea to the island of Sphairia that rests close to the coast and lay there with Poseidon (god of the sea and earthquakes). The mix gave Theseus a combination of divine as well as mortal characteristics in his nature; such double paternity, with one immortal and one mortal father, was a familiar feature of Greek heroes.

Jon has some sort of dual paternity too. Ned became his foster father and Rhaegar was his biological father. It can even be argued that Rhaegar's Valyrian blood can be taken almost divine so Both Jon and Theseus have the combination of divine and mortal characteristics resulting from their double paternities.

After Aethra became pregnant, Aegeus decided to return to Athens. Before leaving, however, he buried his sandals and sword under a huge rock and told Aethra that when their son grew up, he should move the rock, if he were heroic enough, and take the tokens for himself as evidence of his royal parentage. In Athens, Aegeus was joined by Medea, who had left Corinth after slaughtering the children she had born, and had taken Aegeus as her new consort. Priestess and consort together represented the old order in Athens.

This part is really good. It may be quite possible that some remnants from Jon's biological father can be buried under some rock (tomb of Lyanna) and Jon has to move the rock to claim his royal parentage.The huge rock hiding a sword motiff can be equated to the huge Wall hiding Lightbringer (Jon). Hence, Jon has to remove the Wall over himself.

Thus Theseus was raised in his mother's land. When Theseus grew up and became a brave young man, he moved the rock and recovered his father's tokens. His mother then told him the truth about his father's identity and that he must take the sword and sandals back to king Aegeus to claim his birthright. To journey to Athens, Theseus could choose to go by sea (which was the safe way) or by land, following a dangerous path around the Saronic Gulf, where he would encounter a string of six entrances to the Underworld, each guarded by a chthonic enemy. Young, brave, and ambitious, Theseus decided to go alone by the land route and defeated a great many bandits along the way.

Jon is also raised in his mother's land. The rest is yet tom come. It may be possible that Jon speaks with Lyanna and she urges him to claim his birthright. There is a safe way to do it, or there is the hard way, which passes from entrances to Underworld with all sorts of monsters. Jon will choose the hard way.

The Six Entrances of the Underworld

1. At the first site, which was Epidaurus, sacred to Apollo and the healer Asclepius, Theseus turned the tables on the chthonic bandit, the "clubber" Periphetes, who beat his opponents into the Earth, and took from him the stout staff that often identifies Theseus in vase-paintings.
   
2. At the Isthmian entrance to the Underworld was a robber named Sinis, often called "Pityokamptes" (Greek: Πιτυοκάμπτης, "he who bends Pinetrees"). He would capture travelers, tie them between two pine trees that were bent down to the ground, and then let the trees go, tearing his victims apart. Theseus killed him by his own method. He then became intimate with Sinis's daughter, Perigune, fathering the child Melanippus.
   
3. In another deed north of the Isthmus, at a place called Crommyon, he killed an enormous pig, the Crommyonian Sow, bred by an old crone named Phaea. Some versions name the sow herself as Phaea. The Bibliotheca described the Crommyonian sow as an offspring of Typhon and Echidna.
   
4. Near Megara, an elderly robber named Sciron forced travellers along the narrow cliff-face pathway to wash his feet. While they knelt, he kicked them off the cliff behind them, where they were eaten by a sea monster (or, in some versions, a giant turtle). Theseus pushed him off the cliff.
   
5. Another of these enemies was Cercyon, king at the holy site of Eleusis, who challenged passers-by to a wrestling match and, when he had beaten them, killed them. Theseus beat Cercyon at wrestling and then killed him instead. In interpretations of the story that follow the formulas of Frazer's The Golden Bough, Cercyon was a "year-King", who was required to do an annual battle for his life, for the good of his kingdom, and was succeeded by the victor. Theseus overturned this archaic religious rite by refusing to be sacrificed.
   
6. The last bandit was Procrustes the Stretcher, who had two beds, one of which he offered to passers-by in the plain of Eleusis. He then made them fit into it, either by stretching them or by cutting off their feet. Since he had two beds of different lengths, no one would fit. Theseus turned the tables on Procrustes, cutting off his legs and decapitating him with his own axe.
   

Number 1 is a clubber. I think a giant is the obvious clubber Jon would see so will he slay a giant gone bad?

Number 2?

Number 3 can be Borroq and his beast.

Number 4?

Number 5?

Number 6?

I think Jon will slay Ramsay and Weeper on a single battle but I am not sure how these monsters can fit to the pattern.

[Ygrain]

Ah, the Greek myths...

What about the latter parts? And perhaps we might throw here Mary Renault's awesome take on the legend, The King Must Die and The Bull From the Sea?

Theseus falls for Ariadne, the heiress of Crete, but abandons her when he discovers the "taint" of madness in her during the Dionysus rites.

Later, he marries Hippolyta, a maiden warrior, who bears him son but is killed be her former comrades, practically in exchange for Theseus' life.

Theseus, unwitting, brings doom to his beloved son.

In the end, he dies doing the king's duty - sacrificing his life for the good of the people.

[Greymoon]

I don't think any such rumour existed, and that Varys not knowing is not so surprising.

Ashara getting pregnant and leaving KL in disgrace would have been widely known. However, her child being stillborn, or whatever happened with it, wouldn't be advertised across Westeros. Some people at the court or close to the family would know but there was no reason to inform the Lannisters. What Cersei (and most of Westeros) know is that Ashara was in Harrenhal when Ned was, she had a child, committed suicide after Ned's visit to Starfall after the Rebellion, and Ned has a bastard in Winterfell. Perfectly enough to jump at conclusions.

I thought it was a rumor she was referring to... but I don't have the book on hand, so I'll take your word for it ;)

[Han Snow]

Just wanted to ask something relating to Azor/tptwp prophecy; so those of you who believe Jon is him, as I do, though him being the Lightbringer is intriguing and definitely a possibility and probably a great spin on the whole prophecy, but it messes up the Prince that was promised part, unless they are two separate entities, anyway, the question is:

Do you think that the signs (salt, smoke, bleeding star) are fulfilled in some abstract manner (Ser Patreck torn apart, Bowen's tears...) or that part is yet to come!?

My take is that Jon's re-birth, resurrection or whatever is yet to happen so the signs still haven't as well and they will occur at that actual occasion.

subquestion: Was Lightbringer ever mentioned in relation to TPTWP?

[J. Stargaryen]

Just wanted to ask something relating to Azor/tptwp prophecy; so those of you who believe Jon is him, as I do, though him being the Lightbringer is intriguing and definitely a possibility and probably a great spin on the whole prophecy, but it messes up the Prince that was promised part, unless they are two separate entities, anyway, the question is:

Do you think that the signs (salt, smoke, bleeding star) are fulfilled in some abstract manner (Ser Patreck torn apart, Bowen's tears...) or that part is yet to come!?

My take is that Jon's re-birth, resurrection or whatever is yet to happen so the signs still haven't as well and they will occur at that actual occasion.

subquestion: Was Lightbringer ever mentioned in relation to TPTWP?

Azor Ahai created Lightbringer, according to legend.

My understanding of tPtwP is that it is thought to be another name for Azor Ahai reborn. Though "Prince" suggests son of the "king," no? Well, maybe the title is symbolic here and tPtwP is supposed to be the son of the king hero, Azor Ahai reborn.

In other words, being tPtwP might mean that your father was AAr. Which, in turn, would provide more ammo for the Jon=LB theory, with Rhaegar as AA and Lyanna as NN.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

My understanding of tPtwP is that it is thought to be another name for Azor Ahai reborn.

Yes, that's what Melisandre has said, that Azor Ahai reborn = The Prince That Was Promised, although Maester Aemon and Rhaegar also talk about the Prince That Was Promised legend without referencing Azor Ahai.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Azor Ahai created Lightbringer, according to legend.

My understanding of tPtwP is that it is thought to be another name for Azor Ahai reborn. Though "Prince" suggests son of the "king," no? Well, maybe the title is symbolic here and tPtwP is supposed to be the son of the king hero, Azor Ahai reborn.

In other words, being tPtwP might mean that your father was AAr. Which, in turn, would provide more ammo for the Jon=LB theory, with Rhaegar as AA and Lyanna as NN.

I actually think the prophecy received the TPTWP title when the woods witch claimed the prophecy would be filled from Aerys and Rhaella's descendants. Not based on anything, just my own assumptions. It makes sense for the lucky person to then be called "prince." The prophecy is obviously known across cultures and interpreted in different ways.

[Black Crow]

My understanding of tPtwP is that it is thought to be another name for Azor Ahai reborn. Though "Prince" suggests son of the "king," no?

No, indeed.

The son of a King (or Queen) is usually referred to as Prince [ ] but the term also has a much wider general application as referring to a ruler or anyone else of royal blood, even kings are technically princes, as in "put not your trust in princes" or "the princes of the earth" or his satanic majesty "the prince of darkness"

In this case here the Prince that was Promised" does not necessarily mean the son of a king at all, but instead prince might be used in the sense of "a prince among men" - someone who stands out by his deeds rather than his birth.

[J. Stargaryen]

No, indeed.

The son of a King (or Queen) is usually referred to as Prince [ ] but the term also has a much wider general application as referring to a ruler or anyone else of royal blood, even kings are technically princes, as in "put not your trust in princes" or "the princes of the earth" or his satanic majesty "the prince of darkness"

In this case here the Prince that was Promised" does not necessarily mean the son of a king at all, but instead prince might be used in the sense of "a prince among men" - someone who stands out by his deeds rather than his birth.

That straw man is going to be sore for weeks. I never claimed that the only definition of prince was "son of the king." In fact, I thought my use of quotation marks around Prince and king implied that we might not be dealing with the strict definitions of either.

Azor Ahai is the hero figure in the eastern beliefs, though I'm not sure that he was a king strictly speaking. However, if AAr was prophesied to have a son, especially an important one, then it might make sense to call that person a prince, as in tPtwP. So we are actually on the same wave length regarding the potentially fluid definition of "prince" here.

If you believe as I do, that the tale of the forging of LB is a R+L=J metaphor, then that would place Rhaegar in the role of AA(reborn). While Jon would still be the likely candidate to be tPtwP. In other words, tPtwP would be the son of AAr. Hence the prince = son of... line of thought.

[Disputatious]

Yes, that's what Melisandre has said, that Azor Ahai reborn = The Prince That Was Promised, although Maester Aemon and Rhaegar also talk about the Prince That Was Promised legend without referencing Azor Ahai.

If Aemon disagrees with Melisandre on this point, why does he not say so to Samwell when he explains to him why he (Aemon) thinks that she is wrong about Stannis? But he does not, which leads me to the conclusion that Aemon also thinks that AAR and the PtwP are one and the same.

[Mithras]

Ah, the Greek myths...

What about the latter parts? And perhaps we might throw here Mary Renault's awesome take on the legend, The King Must Die and The Bull From the Sea?

Theseus falls for Ariadne, the heiress of Crete, but abandons her when he discovers the "taint" of madness in her during the Dionysus rites.

Later, he marries Hippolyta, a maiden warrior, who bears him son but is killed be her former comrades, practically in exchange for Theseus' life.

Theseus, unwitting, brings doom to his beloved son.

In the end, he dies doing the king's duty - sacrificing his life for the good of the people.

I think GRRM selects some aspects of different myths and merges them into his characters. As stated before, the birth of Theseus seems to have some resonances with Jon. I think some of Meleager's myth can also show up in Jon's story too.

There are two versions of Meleager myth. In the classical one, when Meleager was born, the goddesses of fate declared that the boy would live only until a certain wood piece burns up. Hence, the mother took that wood piece from the fire and hid it in a chest. When Meleager was grown up, he joined the Calydonian Boar hunt, leading a large gathering of heroes including the huntress Atalanta. Most of the other men objected to her presence, by saying was dishonorable to fight and hunt with a woman but Meleager was smitten by her beauty and prowess, so he refused to hear other heroes among which Meleager's uncles (brothers of his mother) were also present. Atalanta was first to spill the blood of the boar with an arrow and then Meleager finished the beast. Meleager gave the hide of the beast to Atalanta because she was the first to spill blood. His uncles objected and tried to get the hide from Atalanta. Meleager was enraged and killed his uncles and their sons. His mother upon hearing this threw the wood piece to the fire and Meleager died.

Homer reworked this myth, which is the best version I prefer. He does not talk about above events but he says that Meleager was cursed by his mother, so he declined himself from the war. He retreated to his house as his city was being sacked. All the townsfolk begged to him to join the battle and save the city. He didnot yield but finally when his wife begged him, it softened his heart and he joined the battle, destroying the enemy. Homer tells this story to soften the heart of Achiles, who also had given up fighting for that time being.

As for the parallels to Jon's story, I think Jon's policy with the wildlings and making Satin his steward resemble Meleager's affection to Atalanta. She was more than a capable huntress and Meleager gave her the honor she deserved but that bit Meleager's ass later on. Likewise, Jon's policies bit his ass at the end of ADwD. In addition to that, he will learn his true parentage in his dream and will be double pissed. I can see him removing himself from everything for some time.

[FrozenFire3]

I think GRRM selects some aspects of different myths and merges them into his characters. As stated before, the birth of Theseus seems to have some resonances with Jon. I think some of Meleager's myth can also show up in Jon's story too.

snip

I agree. The 'Classics connection' has been discussed several times on this thread. Theseus, Paris, Oedipus (with a side dish of Tiresias/Aemon), Aeneas, Romulus and Remus... classical echoes are endless.

I've always felt a very strong classical resonance in ASoIaF, once divested of its fantasy/medieval setup. The dichotomy of choice and necessity, the chains of past and fate, the endless shades of characterial greyness, the blurred line between good and evil, vengeance, madness, 'guilt' and expiation... Not to mention the solemn rhythm of repetitions and even the presence of 'choruses' (the 'songs' come to mind or Mhysa and R'hllor scenes).

As already pointed out in another thread, the pattern Hybris/Ate/Nemesis/Tisis is consistent with the arc of several characters. I'd mention another 'stone guest' both present in Greek Tragedy and ASoIaF: Ananke aka the necessity, the inevitability. The prophecy theme throughout the saga echoes the classical motif of Ananke, with all her twisted tricks, her inscrutability, her controversial relationship with individual choice, her self-fulfilling drive in spite of all the attempts to favour, thwart or modify it. Rhaegar's arc is heavily affected by Ananke. I think Jon's as well. Daenerys' maybe? The Starks'? Mel and Stannis', although, I suspect, in a completely unexpected way... oh, and Cersei too. As per Aeschylus' Prometheus Bound, few escape "the swirling floods of stern Necessity."

[FrozenFire3]

Another parallel I bumped into in a recent re-read and that for some inscrutable reasons had previously escaped my radar:

"Good," he said, smiling. "I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me."

The words twisted in Ned's belly like a knife. For a moment he was at a loss. He could not bring himself to lie. Then he remembered the bastards: little Barra at her mother's breast, Mya in the Vale, Gendry at his forge, and all the others. "I shall . . . guard your children as if they were my own," he said slowly.

For the second time in his life, Ned reluctantly promise someone very close and dear to him to guard/take care of their children as they were his own. Interesting enough, Lyanna, bastards, lies and substitute parenting are present in the passage. Ironic little twist: with Lyanna Ned promises to lie, with Robert he 'lies' to promise.

[Lyse Stark]

I think GRRM selects some aspects of different myths and merges them into his characters. As stated before, the birth of Theseus seems to have some resonances with Jon. I think some of Meleager's myth can also show up in Jon's story too.

There are two versions of Meleager myth. In the classical one, when Meleager was born, the goddesses of fate declared that the boy would live only until a certain wood piece burns up. Hence, the mother took that wood piece from the fire and hid it in a chest. When Meleager was grown up, he joined the Calydonian Boar hunt, leading a large gathering of heroes including the huntress Atalanta. Most of the other men objected to her presence, by saying was dishonorable to fight and hunt with a woman but Meleager was smitten by her beauty and prowess, so he refused to hear other heroes among which Meleager's uncles (brothers of his mother) were also present. Atalanta was first to spill the blood of the boar with an arrow and then Meleager finished the beast. Meleager gave the hide of the beast to Atalanta because she was the first to spill blood. His uncles objected and tried to get the hide from Atalanta. Meleager was enraged and killed his uncles and their sons. His mother upon hearing this threw the wood piece to the fire and Meleager died.

Homer reworked this myth, which is the best version I prefer. He does not talk about above events but he says that Meleager was cursed by his mother, so he declined himself from the war. He retreated to his house as his city was being sacked. All the townsfolk begged to him to join the battle and save the city. He didnot yield but finally when his wife begged him, it softened his heart and he joined the battle, destroying the enemy. Homer tells this story to soften the heart of Achiles, who also had given up fighting for that time being.

As for the parallels to Jon's story, I think Jon's policy with the wildlings and making Satin his steward resemble Meleager's affection to Atalanta. She was more than a capable huntress and Meleager gave her the honor she deserved but that bit Meleager's ass later on. Likewise, Jon's policies bit his ass at the end of ADwD. In addition to that, he will learn his true parentage in his dream and will be double pissed. I can see him removing himself from everything for some time.

I can see Jon trying to escape his destiny, but Bloodraven and Bran forces him to fulfill it.

It's the same with Cersei. She tries to protect her children, but end up fulfilling the prophecy that Maggy the Frog gave her by placing her children in positions where they'll be killed.

[HwT]

Interesting thing GRRM says in a recent interview, that could be of indication that R + L = J reveal will happen in WoW. (10.20 onward www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFAGknnoRio)

"There are certain things I'm laying clues for that there will be revelations later on. Some people have put together those clues as early as 1998 - adding things together" ... "These people have guessed a secret that I'm going to reveal in book 6, people have already guessed that when book two was just out."

[Lyse Stark]

Interesting thing GRRM says in a recent interview, that could be of indication that R + L = J reveal will happen in WoW. (10.20 onward www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFAGknnoRio)

"There are certain things I'm laying clues for that there will be revelations later on. Some people have put together those clues as early as 1998 - adding things together" ... "These people have guessed a secret that I'm going to reveal in book 6, people have already guessed that when book two was just out."

That's interesting and a possible confirmation of R+L=J.

[Ghost's Shadow]

He's going to shit a brick! :lol:

Almost can't wait until we're past the reveal. It's not going to be pretty. Want to bet he's going to wish he was a Stark after all, when he finds out that he'd been asking the wrong question all his life? "Who's my mommy?" Ouch.

Also, it's going to be interesting to learn what exactly the greenseers are going to do (since I do mostly lean toward the coma reveal, it's relevant here. :p)

[Lyse Stark]

He's going to shit a brick! :lol:

Almost can't wait until we're past the reveal. It's not going to be pretty. Want to bet he's going to wish he was a Stark after all, when he finds out that he'd been asking the wrong question all his life? "Who's my mommy?" Ouch.

Also, it's going to be interesting to learn what exactly the greenseers are going to do (since I do mostly lean toward the coma reveal, it's relevant here. :p)

Jon may not take the reveal very well, psychologically and emotionally, as the confirmation of R+L=J meant Ned lied to him. I agree with you that all his life, Jon wanted to be a Stark, but if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, that make Jon a legitimate Targaryen, and that means he cannot be legitimized, as Robb Stark was trying to do in his will.

He will be in denial when it comes out, and I can imagine Jon in a fetal position in a corner in his room, crying like the lost little boy he is on the inside.