R + L = J v 69

[Bastard of Nightsong]

Interesting thing GRRM says in a recent interview, that could be of indication that R + L = J reveal will happen in WoW. (10.20 onward www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFAGknnoRio)

"There are certain things I'm laying clues for that there will be revelations later on. Some people have put together those clues as early as 1998 - adding things together" ... "These people have guessed a secret that I'm going to reveal in book 6, people have already guessed that when book two was just out."

That's interesting and a possible confirmation of R+L=J.

I can't help but point out most of the best reasons for believing in this theory are actually to be found in the first book. In all fairness, the later books mostly round out the story and provide additional circumstantial evidence for R+L=J. I know a number of people who speculated that Jon might be Rhaegar's son after only reading aGoT (they're wicked smart, but still). It may be that GRRM wasn't being specific, or the fan conversation evolved with the growth of the internet between '96 and '98 (so he hadn't heard of fans talking about R+L=J until after Clash was released), but I find myself trying to think of some mystery sparked in aCoK specifically that he might bring answers to in Winds. I'm probably overthinking this. :dunce:

Regardless, I consider it a hopeful sign that he plans to put an end to speculation on any issue in the next book. Hopefully you're right that this is what he was alluding to, and not some minor question about a distant cousin of someone nobody actually cares about.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I myself am not too certain about Jon not taking what is on offer, depending on the state he is in when he comes back from his knifing accident/coma, and in what shape the Watch is in and if they'll still accept him as LC or if he's done there.

And remember, once you legitimise someone you cannot take it back. L+R=J isn't confirmed yet, nor is it common knowledge, nor is it said it will ever be that. Even with Jon not being of the Ned, his mother was Stark, and she counts for something, too. ;)

You know, I don't think the Stark children would insist he drop the name if he did take it, and I don't think he'd usurp them of anything, either. He might use the King title (if he has a need for it, should Stannis be gone and the Lords only then listen to him), but he wouldn't take for greed.

[Ser Creighton]

I myself am not too certain about Jon not taking what is on offer, depending on the state he is in when he comes back from his knifing accident/coma, and in what shape the Watch is in and if they'll still accept him as LC or if he's done there.

And remember, once you legitimise someone you cannot take it back. L+R=J isn't confirmed yet, nor is it common knowledge, nor is it said it will ever be that. Even with Jon not being of the Ned, his mother was Stark, and she counts for something, too. ;)

You know, I don't think the Stark children would insist he drop the name if he did take it, and I don't think he'd usurp them of anything, either. He might use the King title (if he has a need for it, should Stannis be gone and the Lords only then listen to him), but he wouldn't take for greed.

You need to take some of Martins inspirations into account if your trying to figure out Jons future.

You have the Robert Frost poem which Martin says is an inspiration. Not really a good omen for the overall ending of the book, but in the mean time.

We have the War of the roses another part of the inspiration. Martin said you can't count on a similar ending to the series however that does not mean how that ended can't happen before the ending. The Lancaters and Yorks fought themselves to extinction. The Tudors were really a new dynasty. Lets say for argument sake that Jon is that new house and the Lannisters and Starks destroy themselves.

So we will skip the whole how Jon finds out about his parentage, and just go with a possibility. The Tudor rose is a combination of two roses. So lets say Jon decides like Blackfyre that he wants to create his own house. So house Snow, put whatever name you want in there. I will go with House Snow. Jons sigil, a blue rose on white. After all the blue rose is being used for some reasons. And Martin is going to use something closer to real politics to make sure Jon gets the Throne, any character really. So he needs a powerful marriage like the Tudors had sense his claim is hard to sell.

3 Options, seem to exist.

1. He weds Marg who comes from a powerful house and they combine Sigils for the Blue and Gold rose. House Snow.

2. He weds Dany, the three heads of the dragon and their necks are drawn like the vines and thorns of the rose. Blue rose with red vines, much like the blood Ned spills when he grabs the crown of love and beauty.

3. He weds both, Blue and gold rose with red vines on a white field.

This is only based off of sigil use and the two most well known roses in the books. Though I really have a problem with Marg getting married 4 times. But as seen in Dunk and Egg it happens. It's just so blah with the whole Marg is getting married again, this time for sure. But the two roses and Growing strong and A dream of Spring. Spring when things start to grow.

I don't know if any of that will happen but I will stand by house snow and the blue rose sigil. Outside of that? Who knows.

Oh and then the Others kill everyone. Almost forgot that part. And of course many thing will happen before and after all that if it even happens at all.

But I am all for the Blue rose sigil.

[Lyse Stark]

You need to take some of Martins inspirations into account if your trying to figure out Jons future.

You have the Robert Frost poem which Martin says is an inspiration. Not really a good omen for the overall ending of the book, but in the mean time.

We have the War of the roses another part of the inspiration. Martin said you can't count on a similar ending to the series however that does not mean how that ended can't happen before the ending. The Lancaters and Yorks fought themselves to extinction. The Tudors were really a new dynasty. Lets say for argument sake that Jon is that new house and the Lannisters and Starks destroy themselves.

So we will skip the whole how Jon finds out about his parentage, and just go with a possibility. The Tudor rose is a combination of two roses. So lets say Jon decides like Blackfyre that he wants to create his own house. So house Snow, put whatever name you want in there. I will go with House Snow. Jons sigil, a blue rose on white. After all the blue rose is being used for some reasons. And Martin is going to use something closer to real politics to make sure Jon gets the Throne, any character really. So he needs a powerful marriage like the Tudors had sense his claim is hard to sell.

3 Options, seem to exist.

1. He weds Marg who comes from a powerful house and they combine Sigils for the Blue and Gold rose. House Snow.

2. He weds Dany, the three heads of the dragon and their necks are drawn like the vines and thorns of the rose. Blue rose with red vines, much like the blood Ned spills when he grabs the crown of love and beauty.

3. He weds both, Blue and gold rose with red vines on a white field.

This is only based off of sigil use and the two most well known roses in the books. Though I really have a problem with Marg getting married 4 times. But as seen in Dunk and Egg it happens. It's just so blah with the whole Marg is getting married again, this time for sure. But the two roses and Growing strong and A dream of Spring. Spring when things start to grow.

I don't know if any of that will happen but I will stand by house snow and the blue rose sigil. Outside of that? Who knows.

Oh and then the Others kill everyone. Almost forgot that part. And of course many thing will happen before and after all that if it even happens at all.

But I am all for the Blue rose sigil.

It's very possible that after having 3 husbands killed off Margaery will choose to become a septa as her marriage prospects won't be very good for her.

[Fire Eater]

Jon may not take the reveal very well, psychologically and emotionally, as the confirmation of R+L=J meant Ned lied to him. I agree with you that all his life, Jon wanted to be a Stark, but if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, that make Jon a legitimate Targaryen, and that means he cannot be legitimized, as Robb Stark was trying to do in his will.

He will be in denial when it comes out, and I can imagine Jon in a fetal position in a corner in his room, crying like the lost little boy he is on the inside.

Jon will initially will be shocked, sad and angry all at once. It would mean more that Ned lied to him, and he can get over that when reminded of Gilly's and Mance's babies, but nothing would change the fact that Mad King Aerys is his grandfather, the same man who killed his other grandfather.

Jon will be sad, but he has bigger fish to fry he will decide he has no time for mourning after Val fills him in on what happened: Marsh taking over the Wall and fighting the wildlings, the Weeper at the Shadow Tower, and later the Boltons coming to CB. He has to take action.

After that, he will eventually come to terms with his heritage, and accept it. He will reconcile both aspects of himself: ice and fire, his Targaryen heritage with his Stark heritage.

I wonder if Val will give him emotional support after that dream?

[Noneofyourbusiness]

If Aemon disagrees with Melisandre on this point, why does he not say so to Samwell when he explains to him why he (Aemon) thinks that she is wrong about Stannis? But he does not, which leads me to the conclusion that Aemon also thinks that AAR and the PtwP are one and the same.

I don't know that he disagrees with her, only that he doesn't mention Azor Ahai by name. It could be that the prophecies he and Rhaegar read don't make reference to Azor Ahai and therefore either he assumes Azor Ahai is another name for The Prince That Was Promised because Melisandre is saying so, or he doesn't know enough specifically about Azor Ahai to make a definitive statement. Alternatively, it could be that the prophecies do mention Azor Ahai as another name for The Prince That Was Promised and this is a well-known fact that Maester Aemon simply hasn't stated in those exact words.

Edit: Of course, his reference to the fact that the sword is wrong (because it gives off light but no heat) could indicate that he knows Lightbringer as the prophesied weapon of The Prince That Promised, and it's certainly the prophesied weapon of Azor Ahai.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Interesting thing GRRM says in a recent interview, that could be of indication that R + L = J reveal will happen in WoW. (10.20 onward www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFAGknnoRio)

"There are certain things I'm laying clues for that there will be revelations later on. Some people have put together those clues as early as 1998 - adding things together" ... "These people have guessed a secret that I'm going to reveal in book 6, people have already guessed that when book two was just out."

That's cool! :D

I can see it happening that Jons parentage will be revealed in book 6, but that it will remain a mystery whether or not he was born out of wedlock until book 7.

[Varmyr]

I myself am not too certain about Jon not taking what is on offer, depending on the state he is in when he comes back from his knifing accident/coma, and in what shape the Watch is in and if they'll still accept him as LC or if he's done there.

And remember, once you legitimise someone you cannot take it back. L+R=J isn't confirmed yet, nor is it common knowledge, nor is it said it will ever be that. Even with Jon not being of the Ned, his mother was Stark, and she counts for something, too. ;)

You know, I don't think the Stark children would insist he drop the name if he did take it, and I don't think he'd usurp them of anything, either. He might use the King title (if he has a need for it, should Stannis be gone and the Lords only then listen to him), but he wouldn't take for greed.

I'm not so sure that Jon is in a coma, but I agree that the Jon of TWOW as well as subsequent installments will be a harsh contrast to the Jon Snow that we have been reading about thus far.

[Varmyr]

You need to take some of Martins inspirations into account if your trying to figure out Jons future.

You have the Robert Frost poem which Martin says is an inspiration. Not really a good omen for the overall ending of the book, but in the mean time.

We have the War of the roses another part of the inspiration. Martin said you can't count on a similar ending to the series however that does not mean how that ended can't happen before the ending. The Lancaters and Yorks fought themselves to extinction. The Tudors were really a new dynasty. Lets say for argument sake that Jon is that new house and the Lannisters and Starks destroy themselves.

So we will skip the whole how Jon finds out about his parentage, and just go with a possibility. The Tudor rose is a combination of two roses. So lets say Jon decides like Blackfyre that he wants to create his own house. So house Snow, put whatever name you want in there. I will go with House Snow. Jons sigil, a blue rose on white. After all the blue rose is being used for some reasons. And Martin is going to use something closer to real politics to make sure Jon gets the Throne, any character really. So he needs a powerful marriage like the Tudors had sense his claim is hard to sell.

3 Options, seem to exist.

1. He weds Marg who comes from a powerful house and they combine Sigils for the Blue and Gold rose. House Snow.

2. He weds Dany, the three heads of the dragon and their necks are drawn like the vines and thorns of the rose. Blue rose with red vines, much like the blood Ned spills when he grabs the crown of love and beauty.

3. He weds both, Blue and gold rose with red vines on a white field.

This is only based off of sigil use and the two most well known roses in the books. Though I really have a problem with Marg getting married 4 times. But as seen in Dunk and Egg it happens. It's just so blah with the whole Marg is getting married again, this time for sure. But the two roses and Growing strong and A dream of Spring. Spring when things start to grow.

I don't know if any of that will happen but I will stand by house snow and the blue rose sigil. Outside of that? Who knows.

Oh and then the Others kill everyone. Almost forgot that part. And of course many thing will happen before and after all that if it even happens at all.

But I am all for the Blue rose sigil.

ugh, no (I'm torn between laughing and just shaking my head in disapproval - right now I'm doing a little bit of both).

I guess you are basing these predictions on your observations that GRRM is a sucker for a good happy-ending & his history writing TV commercials for Tide (where baseball uniforms are always bright white).

[ciaranmt]

Just gonna bump this, as I've been reading into the R+L=J theory for a bit. The question I have may be easily explained, but I've seen no discussion on it (may just be that I've missed it).

As I was reading, I got to thinking about the events following Lyanna's death, and Ned's return to KL. Basically, I want to know how Ned explains her death to Robert. Does Robert not eventually get to wondering where the 3 members of Aerys' Kingsguard went?

Like I said, this may have already been dealt with in previous discussion, but I haven't seen anything thus far.

[WhiteOwl18]

Just gonna bump this, as I've been reading into the R+L=J theory for a bit. The question I have may be easily explained, but I've seen no discussion on it (may just be that I've missed it).

As I was reading, I got to thinking about the events following Lyanna's death, and Ned's return to KL. Basically, I want to know how Ned explains her death to Robert. Does Robert not eventually get to wondering where the 3 members of Aerys' Kingsguard went?

Like I said, this may have already been dealt with in previous discussion, but I haven't seen anything thus far.

Welcome to the forums! That is a very good question. The presence of the KG at the TOJ is key, because we know that they know that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead. That is very important, because if they didn't know, then their presence there could be explained like this: the king is still protected by other KG, so they are free to do other things. When Ned arrives he tells them what happened at the Trident and King's Landing and they are not surprised, which means that they know about the deaths. The thing is, Robert doesn't know that they know. So all Ned has to do when Robert asks him what they are doing there is say: "They didn't know about the deaths of Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon.". That is a very simple explanation that would certainly convince Robert. I hope I explained it well!

[MtnLion]

Many readers seem to think that Ned would return to King's Landing after the tower. I believe that he has many reasons not to return to King's Landing until much later, say Cersei's wedding?

• He is mightily pissed at Robert, nearly starting a new rebellion, over the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys.
  
• He has his sister's bones to bury.
  
• He has a child to see to safety.
  
• He has a wife and other child to install at home.
  
• He is still pissed at Robert. ;)
  

It just makes too much sense of the story, if Ned returns via ship out of Starfall with horses, bones, baby, and Reed. We know that Robert and Ned eventually patch up their relationship over the shared grief of Lyanna's death. There is no timeline for that patch up, and with Ned's anger, I would expect it to take more than a little while. We also know that Robert has never visited Winterfell or Lyanna's tomb before his visit in GoT.

ETA: No one ever mentions those three Kingsguard other than Brandon, and a Winterfell rumor about one of the Kingsguard. We don't get anything but a name, no location, nor reason for fight. It could be anything in the rumor, and even be attributed to lifting the siege of Storm's End, though the reader knows better.

[barmyscouser]

I'll buy the notion that R + L = J. But if john's really a dragon then how did he burn his hand? Dany lives through a funeral pyre that turns 2 people and 1 horse to cinders and while her hair burns her body is unharmed. In ADwD John hasn't completely regained the dexterity of his sword hand that he burned in AGoT.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I'll buy the notion that R + L = J. But if john's really a dragon then how did he burn his hand? Dany lives through a funeral pyre that turns 2 people and 1 horse to cinders and while her hair burns her body is unharmed. In ADwD John hasn't completely regained the dexterity of his sword hand that he burned in AGoT.

Jon burned his hand because he grabbed a pile of burning cloth with his bare hand. See the OP of this thread for further explanation of the flammability of Targaryens.

[MtnLion]

Jon burned his hand because he grabbed a pile of burning cloth with his bare hand. See the OP of this thread for further explanation of the flammability of Targaryens.

Offhand, I believe that it was the lantern that burned Jon's hand. To the other poster, do read the first post, if you want to know about Targaryen flammability. Also, keep in mind that Daenerys burnt her hands in DwD.

[Mithras]

Another evidence for Jon=Lightbringer theory (and it is hilarious :D)

Every night when they made camp, Ygritte threw her sleeping skins down beside his own, no matter if he was near the fire or well away from it. Once he woke to find her nestled against him, her arm across his chest. He lay listening to her breathe for a long time, trying to ignore the tension in his groin. Rangers often shared skins for warmth, but warmth was not all Ygritte wanted, he suspected. After that he had taken to using Ghost to keep her away. Old Nan used to tell stories about knights and their ladies who would sleep in a single bed with a blade between them for honor’s sake, but he thought this must be the first time where a direwolf took the place of the sword.

Direwolf took the place of the sword. Ghost will take the place of Jon(=Lightbringer) for a while.

[XSarellaX]

Interesting thing GRRM says in a recent interview, that could be of indication that R + L = J reveal will happen in WoW. (10.20 onward www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFAGknnoRio)

"There are certain things I'm laying clues for that there will be revelations later on. Some people have put together those clues as early as 1998 - adding things together" ... "These people have guessed a secret that I'm going to reveal in book 6, people have already guessed that when book two was just out."

Book 6? Are we that close? :rofl:

I have to confess.. I really envy those people who will only find out about R+L=J reading the book. If they still exist... spoilers are everywhere.. How frustrating must it be for GRRM to know that one of the biggest revelations in the story is know by almost everyone..

[WhiteOwl18]

Book 6? Are we that close? :rofl:

I have to confess.. I really envy those people who will only find out about R+L=J reading the book. If they still exist... spoilers are everywhere.. How frustrating must it be for GRRM to know that one of the biggest revelations in the story is know by almost everyone..

Oh, they exist. You see, this is obvious for us, because we come to an online forum to discuss every single aspect of it. Most casual readers (and, make no mistake, those are the majority) have absolutely no idea. For every person who figures this out there are probably thousands who don't.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

Manderly has this to say about Rhaegar Frey. “That smirking worm who wears a dragon’s name.” (ADWD, Davos). I can understand Manderly being more upset at the Freys at the moment than the Targaryens considering that what the Freys did was more recent, more personal, arguably worse than what Aerys did because of the Guest Right breach, and the Targaryens were defeated while the Freys have gone relatively unpunished. However, I do find it odd that Manderly is so indignant over a Frey having the same name as a guy that according Robert’s version of events kidnapped and raped a Stark girl especially when he is so outraged that the Boltons have essentially done the same thing with “Arya Stark.” Manderly’s comment about Rhaegar Frey seems to suggest that he doesn’t buy into Robert’s version of Rhaegar Targaryens’s character either.

[Ygrain]

Manderly has this to say about Rhaegar Frey. “That smirking worm who wears a dragon’s name.” (ADWD, Davos). I can understand Manderly being more upset at the Freys at the moment than the Targaryens considering that what the Freys did was more recent, more personal, arguably worse than what Aerys did because of the Guest Right breach, and the Targaryens were defeated while the Freys have gone relatively unpunished. However, I do find it odd that Manderly is so indignant over a Frey having the same name as a guy that according Robert’s version of events kidnapped and raped a Stark girl especially when he is so outraged that the Boltons have essentially done the same thing with “Arya Stark.” Manderly’s comment about Rhaegar Frey seems to suggest that he doesn’t buy into Robert’s version of Rhaegar Targaryens’s character either.

A good catch. The list of people thinking that Rhaegar was no rapist is getting rather extensive :-)