R + L = J v 69

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

A good catch. The list of people thinking that Rhaegar was no rapist is getting rather extensive :-)

I agree, nice catch!

Perhaps we might rather make a list of who does think of Rhaegar in that light?

I'm thinking it might be rather short, perhaps only one name? ;)

[Alia of the knife]

A good catch. The list of people thinking that Rhaegar was no rapist is getting rather extensive :-)

And another reason I "crackpot" that Manderly might have been helping Ned keep secret number two 😋

[Moondancer]

Manderly has this to say about Rhaegar Frey. “That smirking worm who wears a dragon’s name.” (ADWD, Davos). I can understand Manderly being more upset at the Freys at the moment than the Targaryens considering that what the Freys did was more recent, more personal, arguably worse than what Aerys did because of the Guest Right breach, and the Targaryens were defeated while the Freys have gone relatively unpunished. However, I do find it odd that Manderly is so indignant over a Frey having the same name as a guy that according Robert’s version of events kidnapped and raped a Stark girl especially when he is so outraged that the Boltons have essentially done the same thing with “Arya Stark.” Manderly’s comment about Rhaegar Frey seems to suggest that he doesn’t buy into Robert’s version of Rhaegar Targaryens’s character either.

I would imagine this being a subtle clue... But, he does say "a dragon's" not "the dragon's name". The article changes the meaning and possible implications.

While Aegon I was also known as the dragon, in that particular time frame, the dragon could be the ruling Targaryen or the one who holds great respect, ie Rhaegar.

However, he simply says "a dragon" = name typical of Targaryen dynasty; carrying the name of some member of the ruling dynasty

[Lyse Stark]

I would imagine this being a subtle clue... But, he does say "a dragon's" not "the dragon's name". The article changes the meaning and possible implications.

While Aegon I was also known as the dragon, in that particular time frame, the dragon could be the ruling Targaryen or the one who holds great respect, ie Rhaegar.

However, he simply says "a dragon" = name typical of Targaryen dynasty; carrying the name of some member of the ruling dynasty

And Manderly think the Freys aren't worth a Dragon's name, so I wouldn't be surprised if Daenery also takes offence at the Freys giving one of their own Rhaegar's name.

But Jon on the other hand... His name sounds wolfish, but he's a dragon all the same. Only hidden under a false name. The Jons of the Starks were reformers, and I wouldn't be surprised if Jon takes after his forebearers and reforms Westeros's politics so that if a prospective heir shows signs of the madness, the claim immediately go to the next her with the most mentally sound mind.

[XSarellaX]

A bit off the topic maybe... I don't know if this has been brought up before but in The Mystery Knight

SPOILER ( I don't know how to hide the spoilers...)

Daemon Blackfyre uses a fake name to disguise himself when he is in Westeros... I just thought that particular fake name is very interesting :leer:

[Lyse Stark]

What was the fake name? Do it involves a certain bastard name?

[Alia of the knife]

Wasn't it Jon the Fiddler?

[Lyse Stark]

Wasn't it Jon the Fiddler?

Interesting that Daemon chose the same name that Ned gave Jon.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Manderly could have simply implied that Freys think themselves too much, even daring to have "dragon" names but yes, makes you wonder.

The thing with Rhaegar is that with the information we have now, it's easy to realise that his actions were rather fool than romantic or heroic. But we only know what everybody else knows. The only witness of the alleged kidnapping were Rhaegar and Lyanna and they're both dead. If there is anyone else, we haven't yet met them.

And even if his actions were indeed deluded, that doesn't make him a rapist. A rapist that is also a King or a Prince wouldn't kidnap a girl in the way he allegedly did: he would either summon her and her father to court and make his move or make himself invited to Winterfell and have his go at her or he would do it openly so anybody can see he's the boss. Why so much trouble for someone you only want sexual gratification?

SPOILER ( I don't know how to hide the spoilers...)resting :leer:

You write "spoiler" to open and "/spoiler" to close between []

[FittleLinger]

Manderly could have simply implied that Freys think themselves too much, even daring to have "dragon" names but yes, makes you wonder.

The thing with Rhaegar is that with the information we have now, it's easy to realise that his actions were rather fool than romantic or heroic. But we only know what everybody else knows. The only witness of the alleged kidnapping were Rhaegar and Lyanna and they're both dead. If there is anyone else, we haven't yet met them.

And even if his actions were indeed deluded, that doesn't make him a rapist. A rapist that is also a King or a Prince wouldn't kidnap a girl in the way he allegedly did: he would either summon her and her father to court and make his move or make himself invited to Winterfell and have his go at her or he would do it openly so anybody can see he's the boss. Why so much trouble for someone you only want sexual gratification?

You write "spoiler" to open and "/spoiler" to close between []

Actually, Dayne and Whent were there, too. But yes, they are dead as well.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Interesting thing GRRM says in a recent interview, that could be of indication that R + L = J reveal will happen in WoW. (10.20 onward www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFAGknnoRio)

"There are certain things I'm laying clues for that there will be revelations later on. Some people have put together those clues as early as 1998 - adding things together" ... "These people have guessed a secret that I'm going to reveal in book 6, people have already guessed that when book two was just out."

might he be referring to (f)aegon and the hotud

However i hope the r + l reveal happens in winds instead of the after the fact reveal

[binhorde]

For Martin to be talking about House of the Undying stuff with that quote, he'd have to be talking about really late 1998 on those forums, and it'd have to be limited to non US readers. Clash was first released in November 98 in the UK and March 99 in the US. Now granted, we're talking about something that was 16 years ago, so it is possible his timeline is messed up.

But, I don't know. I don't think it's an unsafe assumption to assume the quote in this video is about Jon and his parentage, and it is about to be revealed in the next book. It's so early on in the time frame of this story (according to him 1998) that it really narrows down what it could be. At the very least it's only 2 books, if not 1.

[Ygrain]

The thing with Rhaegar is that with the information we have now, it's easy to realise that his actions were rather fool than romantic or heroic. But we only know what everybody else knows. The only witness of the alleged kidnapping were Rhaegar and Lyanna and they're both dead. If there is anyone else, we haven't yet met them.

Actually, Dayne and Whent were there, too. But yes, they are dead as well.

Well, there must have been someone yet else, or the story about kidnapping wouldn't start circulating at all :-)

We have Dany's version how Lyanna was carried off at swordpoint, and she later connects this to her fanasies about Daario coming to rescue her from her marriage to Hizdahr. I presume this might be a hint (or at least that Dany believes) that Lyanna was rescued rather than abducted from marriage to Robert and that the sword was used at her guards, not herself. Either way, it is not very probable that she was completely on her own when the "kidnapping" took place (unless she ran away from home on her own and Rhaegar took the blame on himself)

[Disputatious]

Interesting that Daemon chose the same name that Ned gave Jon.

Are you suggesting that Jon is a blackfire? (Yes it very unlikely :) :))

[J. Stargaryen]

Are you suggesting that Jon is a blackfire? (Yes it very unlikely :) :))

It might be that GRRM thinks Jon/John is a good cover name for people with claims to the IT.

The Mystery Knight is supposed to have some potential connections to Jon Snow and his story. The Jon/John cover name is probably one of them.

Off the top of my head, here are a couple others: Whitewalls (the Wall), Egg being the dragon that hatched. When you combine them, you get a dragon hatching at Whitewalls/white Wall.

[XSarellaX]

Wasn't it Jon the Fiddler?

Yes, but it's spelled John, instead of Jon

You write "spoiler" to open and "/spoiler" to close between []

Thanks!

did it work?

[The guy from the Vale]

It's

(text), not [spoiler(text)]

[FittleLinger]

Well, there must have been someone yet else, or the story about kidnapping wouldn't start circulating at all :-)

We have Dany's version how Lyanna was carried off at swordpoint, and she later connects this to her fanasies about Daario coming to rescue her from her marriage to Hizdahr. I presume this might be a hint (or at least that Dany believes) that Lyanna was rescued rather than abducted from marriage to Robert and that the sword was used at her guards, not herself. Either way, it is not very probable that she was completely on her own when the "kidnapping" took place (unless she ran away from home on her own and Rhaegar took the blame on himself)

To be honest Ygrain, I am not sure that's necessary. Lyanna was wild, and she could pull off a mystery knight maneuver, which to me shows that she is not accompanied by someone at all times. And an adult man running away with a very young girl - it's not really far off to consider it kidnapping. I mean, if a child escapes home and I play along rather than return it to his parents, probably the police and her folks will think that as an abduction, too. Now put the biased Robert in the picture, who later becomes king, and the kidnapping easily becomes the "absolute" truth. And to the untrained eye (ear?) it sounds plausible as well, probably even more plausible for Rhaegar to just click and go batshit, than to believe they were in love and decided to say "f the world".

[Ygrain]

To be honest Ygrain, I am not sure that's necessary. Lyanna was wild, and she could pull off a mystery knight maneuver, which to me shows that she is not accompanied by someone at all times. And an adult man running away with a very young girl - it's not really far off to consider it kidnapping. I mean, if a child escapes home and I play along rather than return it to his parents, probably the police and her folks will think that as an abduction, too. Now put the biased Robert in the picture, who later becomes king, and the kidnapping easily becomes the "absolute" truth. And to the untrained eye (ear?) it sounds plausible as well, probably even more plausible for Rhaegar to just click and go batshit, than to believe they were in love and decided to say "f the world".

She pulled the mystery knight for a short amount of time when she was supposedly with Benjen or someone else, and we don't know what, or if, there were any distractions needed.

And, no matter how the "abduction" played out, someone wtill must have seen, and talked, or else there is one missing Stark daughter, but not a single clue to who took her. There must have been something that was pointing to Rhaegar.

[Moondancer]

Well, there must have been someone yet else, or the story about kidnapping wouldn't start circulating at all :-)

We have Dany's version how Lyanna was carried off at swordpoint, and she later connects this to her fanasies about Daario coming to rescue her from her marriage to Hizdahr. I presume this might be a hint (or at least that Dany believes) that Lyanna was rescued rather than abducted from marriage to Robert and that the sword was used at her guards, not herself. Either way, it is not very probable that she was completely on her own when the "kidnapping" took place (unless she ran away from home on her own and Rhaegar took the blame on himself)

There's also Dany 's apparent belief that Rhaegar loved his lady, as early as in ASoS.

And that moment in The House of The Undying - when the dying prince murmurs with his last breath a woman's name.. Now, I wonder, how would Dany (or the narrator, using Dany 's PoV) know that it was a woman's name without actually recognising the name? How does she know it is a woman's name?

Maybe this musing of mine is too logical and if I were to continue this trail of reasoning, I'd say Dany recognised the name, it was familiar to her, and therefore brought no surprise (Dany doesn't give it any further thought) which would fit nicely with the circumstances in KL where the royal family, and those close to them, knew that Rhaegar's affection was no small or insignificant infatuation.