R + L = J v 69

[Mithras]

Jaime had laid his sword across the Warrior’s knees, piled his armor at his feet, and knelt upon the rough stone floor before the altar. When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. “All knights must bleed, Jaime,” Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. “Blood is the seal of our devotion.” With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime’s tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. A boy knelt; a knight rose.

A knight’s a sword with a horse.

He [Jon] rested for a while to let the horse graze. She did not wander far. That was good. Hobbled with a bad leg, he could never have caught her. It was all he could do to force himself back to his feet and climb onto her back. How did I ever mount her before, without saddle or stirrups, and a sword in one hand? That was another question he could not answer.

“Knights?” Clegane made the word a sneer. “Dondarrion’s a knight, but the rest of you are the sorriest lot of outlaws and broken men I’ve ever seen. I shit better men than you.”

Unsmiling, Lord Beric laid the edge of his longsword against the palm of his left hand, and drew it slowly down. Blood ran dark from the gash he made, and washed over the steel.

And then the sword took fire.

[in the dream] Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking.

I think the transformation is almost complete.

[finger]

I myself am not too certain about Jon not taking what is on offer, depending on the state he is in when he comes back from his knifing accident/coma, and in what shape the Watch is in and if they'll still accept him as LC or if he's done there.

And remember, once you legitimise someone you cannot take it back. L+R=J isn't confirmed yet, nor is it common knowledge, nor is it said it will ever be that. Even with Jon not being of the Ned, his mother was Stark, and she counts for something, too. ;)

You know, I don't think the Stark children would insist he drop the name if he did take it, and I don't think he'd usurp them of anything, either. He might use the King title (if he has a need for it, should Stannis be gone and the Lords only then listen to him), but he wouldn't take for greed.

Jon has lived with the Starks being one of them, and he's still their cousin. Blood is thicker than water.

Jon was at the fringe of deserting the NW to join Robb's banners. Bran risked Summer when he saw Jon in danger. Jon was stabbed when he was about deserting the NW for a second time to go and rescue his "little sister." It's guessed that Robb legitimized him (as a Stark, not a Targaryen.) All this means more than a name or a castle.

But there's something sadder to come; GRRM has pointed at it. Arya still keeps Needle. In due time, she'll somehow break the FM's code to help Jon, at the cost of her own life. I'd rather let it be. The last book promises to be painful to read.

Btw, Robb left four living brothers, and an uncle. I guess Benjen is before Lyanna's son to be the new Lord Stark of Winterfell. In fact, I don't mind it much, there's Rickon and Sansa to take the lot. Jon IS the leader of the wildlings, and that's more than enough for the hard times to come.

[finger]

That's cool! :D

I can see it happening that Jons parentage will be revealed in book 6, but that it will remain a mystery whether or not he was born out of wedlock until book 7.

I can see it too. I see it in the second part od the book, and not told to Jon, but Dany. I imagine Quaithe and Marwin showing up in Mereen before Daenerys.

Quaithe: "The lad is your nephew Aegon, son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell. I'm Ashara Dayne, and I fled with him right before Ned Stark arrived in ToJ. Archmaester Marwin has always helped us, then or now. Btw, you've got another nephew, your brother Rhaegar fathered him from Lyanna Stark. He's known as Jon Snow."

Daenerys: "WTF, I've just won a war to Yunkai et al. That's a tad too much. What do you mean with then or now?"

Quaithe: "Oh, just a family phrase. But let me tell you the details, blah, blah, blah, blah..."

It can be a long chapter, indeed.

[finger]

Manderly could have simply implied that Freys think themselves too much, even daring to have "dragon" names but yes, makes you wonder.

The thing with Rhaegar is that with the information we have now, it's easy to realise that his actions were rather fool than romantic or heroic. But we only know what everybody else knows. The only witness of the alleged kidnapping were Rhaegar and Lyanna and they're both dead. If there is anyone else, we haven't yet met them.

And even if his actions were indeed deluded, that doesn't make him a rapist. A rapist that is also a King or a Prince wouldn't kidnap a girl in the way he allegedly did: he would either summon her and her father to court and make his move or make himself invited to Winterfell and have his go at her or he would do it openly so anybody can see he's the boss. Why so much trouble for someone you only want sexual gratification?

You write "spoiler" to open and "/spoiler" to close between []

For the nth time: Rhaegar stole Lyanna. A pity wildlings seem not to give a dime for parentage: through their leader's veins run the blood of the Dragons and the Kings in the North.

Maybe they stat worrying about genealogy! :laugh:

[finger]

Well, there must have been someone yet else, or the story about kidnapping wouldn't start circulating at all :-)

We have Dany's version how Lyanna was carried off at swordpoint, and she later connects this to her fanasies about Daario coming to rescue her from her marriage to Hizdahr. I presume this might be a hint (or at least that Dany believes) that Lyanna was rescued rather than abducted from marriage to Robert and that the sword was used at her guards, not herself. Either way, it is not very probable that she was completely on her own when the "kidnapping" took place (unless she ran away from home on her own and Rhaegar took the blame on himself)

If you remember the chapter (or do it my own self) BS was telling about Rhaella who was smitted with some knight who won a toruney and named her QOLB. Something of the sort had happened with Lynese Hightower and Lyanna Stark. I mean, it happened in the highest families around the Seven Kingdom.

I guess that the junction of QOLB and resue at swordpoint had to be the ultimate "leg-spreader," if I may-

(At this point, I wonder, did Lyanna rape Rhaegar? Well, he might have obliged,..)

Eta. You're kinda literature scholar, and I'd appreciate your view. I thing that, as far as the tale structure is concerned, it makes sense that the 3 KG at the ToJ were guarding 3 Targs: Aegon, Viserys and Jon. Still, otherwise,...I'm not too sure that it could work.

[Alia of the knife]

There's also Dany 's apparent belief that Rhaegar loved his lady, as early as in ASoS.

And that moment in The House of The Undying - when the dying prince murmurs with his last breath a woman's name.. Now, I wonder, how would Dany (or the narrator, using Dany 's PoV) know that it was a woman's name without actually recognising the name? How does she know it is a woman's name?

Maybe this musing of mine is too logical and if I were to continue this trail of reasoning, I'd say Dany recognised the name, it was familiar to her, and therefore brought no surprise (Dany doesn't give it any further thought) which would fit nicely with the circumstances in KL where the royal family, and those close to them, knew that Rhaegar's affection was no small or insignificant infatuation.

Ive always actually speculated that Rhaegars affection was pretty obvious even to those not that close.

[finger]

Btw, the old secret to be revealed might not be R+L=J.

It might be Lyanna=TKOLT, Aegon is alive, Syrio=Jaqen, why Tyrion is a giant,...

I'd wager that not only one secret is to be revealed.

[Ghost's Shadow]

You forgot 'Benjen is alive' because that's the only way your 'Benjen comes before Lyanna's son' to be right.

[palewest]

I think that there is a pattern of three in play here.

First, Stannis offered to legitimize Jon and make him Lord of Winterfell. Jon declined.

Next, Jon will discover that Robb's will named him heir. Jon will again be offered the chance to be legitimized, and he will be offered the crown of King in the North. He will decline.

Finally, Jon will discover his true parentage. He will again be offered the chance to be legitimized, and he will be offered the Iron Throne. Do you think he will decline?

[Lyse Stark]

I think that there is a pattern of three in play here.

First, Stannis offered to legitimize Jon and make him Lord of Winterfell. Jon declined.

Next, Jon will discover that Robb's will named him heir. Jon will again be offered the chance to be legitimized, and he will be offered the crown of King in the North. He will decline.

Finally, Jon will discover his true parentage. He will again be offered the chance to be legitimized, and he will be offered the Iron Throne. Do you think he will decline?

I think Jon will decline, but at the end, the Iron Throne will be forced upon him.

[J. Stargaryen]

• Brutus Was the crown offered him thrice?

• Casca Ay, marry, was't, and he put it by thrice, every

  time gentler than other, and at every putting-by

  mine honest neighbours shouted.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

• Brutus Was the crown offered him thrice?

• Casca Ay, marry, was't, and he put it by thrice, every

  time gentler than other, and at every putting-by

  mine honest neighbours shouted.

Nice :)

[FittleLinger]

She pulled the mystery knight for a short amount of time when she was supposedly with Benjen or someone else, and we don't know what, or if, there were any distractions needed.

And, no matter how the "abduction" played out, someone wtill must have seen, and talked, or else there is one missing Stark daughter, but not a single clue to who took her. There must have been something that was pointing to Rhaegar.

But why would the supposed witness(es) lie that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna (rather than being consentual) thus committing treason for charging the crown prince with this crime, and doing it under the specific ruler known for killing people in a horrible way for much less? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If anything, it would be best for said witness to tell the truth - they she went willingly - thus not implicating the crown prince of any crime, and also possibly cooling down the tension on the Stark and Baratheon side.

[Alia of the knife]

But why would the supposed witness(es) lie that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna (rather than being consentual) thus committing treason for charging the crown prince with this crime, and doing it under the specific ruler known for killing people in a horrible way for much less? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If anything, it would be best for said witness to tell the truth - they she went willingly - thus not implicating the crown prince of any crime, and also possibly cooling down the tension on the Stark and Baratheon side.

I tend to think that in an event such as that, Rhaegar would take the blame and the hit to his honor, because in that time period, while not necessarily a good thing for the man either, Rhaegar would be forgiven much quicker than Lyannna, (at least until the next scandal came along).

If all had worked out, and Lyanna was brought back to KL as his wife, not only would she have to contend with enemies at Court, but the taint of dishonor as an "outlander temptress" would make it very difficult for her to command any respect or credibility.

As it is, some people would think that anyway even if she was taken against her will. You see some of that in Cersei who thinks in her vanity, that if Rhaegar had married her, he wouldn't have looked twice at the "wolf girl."

Rhaegar would have to spend most of his life defending her, making that a distraction to rule.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Jon has lived with the Starks being one of them, and he's still their cousin. Blood is thicker than water.

Jon was at the fringe of deserting the NW to join Robb's banners. Bran risked Summer when he saw Jon in danger. Jon was stabbed when he was about deserting the NW for a second time to go and rescue his "little sister." It's guessed that Robb legitimized him (as a Stark, not a Targaryen.) All this means more than a name or a castle.

But there's something sadder to come; GRRM has pointed at it. Arya still keeps Needle. In due time, she'll somehow break the FM's code to help Jon, at the cost of her own life. I'd rather let it be. The last book promises to be painful to read.

Btw, Robb left four living brothers, and an uncle. I guess Benjen is before Lyanna's son to be the new Lord Stark of Winterfell. In fact, I don't mind it much, there's Rickon and Sansa to take the lot. Jon IS the leader of the wildlings, and that's more than enough for the hard times to come.

I guess you mean three living brothers. Because otherwise:

When did Robb get a fourth brother? Bran, Rickon and Jon, that's three :) Or did Sansa or Arya underwent surgery :D :p

Benjen is most likely not alive anymore. Alive, he would have come before any son's of Lyanna, certainly.

If you remember the chapter (or do it my own self) BS was telling about Rhaella who was smitted with some knight who won a toruney and named her QOLB. Something of the sort had happened with Lynese Hightower and Lyanna Stark. I mean, it happened in the highest families around the Seven Kingdom.

I guess that the junction of QOLB and resue at swordpoint had to be the ultimate "leg-spreader," if I may-

(At this point, I wonder, did Lyanna rape Rhaegar? Well, he might have obliged,..)

Eta. You're kinda literature scholar, and I'd appreciate your view. I thing that, as far as the tale structure is concerned, it makes sense that the 3 KG at the ToJ were guarding 3 Targs: Aegon, Viserys and Jon. Still, otherwise,...I'm not too sure that it could work.

And now all of the sudden Viserys was also at ToJ? We know he left KL and went to Dragonstone 2 weeks before the Sack.

Btw, the old secret to be revealed might not be R+L=J.

It might be Lyanna=TKOLT, Aegon is alive, Syrio=Jaqen, why Tyrion is a giant,...

I'd wager that not only one secret is to be revealed.

Syrio was confirmed to have died, IIRC, by GRRM, in an SSM.

[finger]

You forgot 'Benjen is alive' because that's the only way your 'Benjen comes before Lyanna's son' to be right.

Yeah, I also thought this, but I didn't write it down, it was just a matter of giving some instances.

Truly, Benjen wouldn't easily inherit Winterfell, being dead. At least he should be alive. :laugh:

[finger]

I think that there is a pattern of three in play here.

First, Stannis offered to legitimize Jon and make him Lord of Winterfell. Jon declined.

Next, Jon will discover that Robb's will named him heir. Jon will again be offered the chance to be legitimized, and he will be offered the crown of King in the North. He will decline.

Finally, Jon will discover his true parentage. He will again be offered the chance to be legitimized, and he will be offered the Iron Throne. Do you think he will decline?

He's Jon Snow, Lord Snow, the first of his name, the first king of the wildlings south of the Wall. He has taken every step to deem him crowned, without apparently noticing (we've seen this before) nor wearing a crown. Shouldn't he do something more important, he'd be dubbed Jon the Unaware.

My point is: who is entitled to legitimize him? He'd got the power, his only trouble is staying alive, not a name.

[finger]

I guess you mean three living brothers. Because otherwise:

When did Robb get a fourth brother? Bran, Rickon and Jon, that's three :) Or did Sansa or Arya underwent surgery :D :P

Benjen is most likely not alive anymore. Alive, he would have come before any son's of Lyanna, certainly.

And now all of the sudden Viserys was also at ToJ? We know he left KL and went to Dragonstone 2 weeks before the Sack.

Syrio was confirmed to have died, IIRC, by GRRM, in an SSM.

My mistake. I meant siblings, but I wrote brothers.

Alive or dead, Benjen comes after Ned's children, and they seem resilient to die (better let's forget about Arya, it's too sad.)

The Viserys stuff is just some brooding. 3 KG to guard 3 dragons. It makes sense but I don't see it clearly, neither. It's easy to snatch a baby or a troddler, a 6 yo. is more difficult.

In the Arianne chapter of TWOW, Viserys, Darkstar and Aurane Waters are remembered.

The three of them were of an age, and had Targ features or similar. Let's recap what is said of them along the story.

Viserys didn't have the purple eyes of Rhaegar or Daenerys. His were violet, or maybe lilac. Well, this changes with the light, the sky.

Darkstar was beautiful, as Rhaegar was. Could they be brothers? They could if Viserys had been taken to ToJ. It would explain his attacking the Usuroer's daughter. I'm not in a position of defending this arc, since I'm not convinced, but facts are facts.

Seing Aurane, Cersei thought to be before Rhaegar. But she had been spurned and it was Cersei and a couple jugs of Arbor vintage, to be true. This is alternative to the former. Aurane came from Driftmark, and island close to DS. They could have been swapped before they went to Braavos. (They first fled to Braavos, didn't they?)

Why put them together in the same chapter? Is it a hidden message?

As for Syrio, GRRM said he was in a dire situation, and encouraged the readers to take our their own conclusions. Arya's training at the Temple reminds too much what she did with Syrio. She frequently remembers Syrio, not Jaqen. A FM in the dungeons begs for more elaboration. :dunno: It was just an instance.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

@finger, the app apparently confirms that Darkstar is in his late twenties. That would make his agewise between Rhaegar and Viserys. So that would rule out a swap, I guess. Aurane and Viserys are too far appart, agewise.

Seeing as how he has a noble last name, I'd say it's a pretty low chance that Darkstar isn't a real Dayne.

The part about all three people looking alike (Aurane, Viserys, Rhaegal) could lead to multiple conclusions: not all Targaryens have the same purple eye colour (in favor of Aegon is a real Targaryen), or even nonm-Targaryens can look like Targaryens (in favor of Aegon is fake).

[Alia of the knife]

@finger, the app apparently confirms that Darkstar is in his late twenties. That would make his agewise between Rhaegar and Viserys. So that would rule out a swap, I guess. Aurane and Viserys are too far appart, agewise.

Seeing as how he has a noble last name, I'd say it's a pretty low chance that Darkstar isn't a real Dayne.

The part about all three people looking alike (Aurane, Viserys, Rhaegal) could lead to multiple conclusions: not all Targaryens have the same purple eye colour (in favor of Aegon is a real Targaryen), or even nonm-Targaryens can look like Targaryens (in favor of Aegon is fake).

Right, it says Lys is full of Targ-looking citizens.