binhorde Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 the thing for me that instantly made me believe that Jon was Lyanna's son was when Dany is in the house of the undying and she sees a blue rose growing out of a chink in the ice of giant frozen wall. After that it just instantly clicked for me Yes, but the rest of that was "...and filled the air with sweetness." Some jump to the conclusion that is symbolism from Martin for love. But my eyes were opened to an alternative, when I read this thread here. "Sweetness" and the word "sweet" has not been used in the duration of this story for good or positive things. Just the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Which reminds me - the point is made about Longclaw not getting renamed, because a long claw works for both wolves and bears. But a dragon has claws, too - no? Another small hint probably of Jon being of mixed / undefined identity?Indeed, dragons, bears and wolves all have claws. And they can be deadly in the right hands or pardon the pun, paws.Jon has his claws, but I imagine they come out when he is pushed enough, as evidenced with Janos Slynt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Which reminds me - the point is made about Longclaw not getting renamed, because a long claw works for both wolves and bears. But a dragon has claws, too - no? Another small hint probably of Jon being of mixed / undefined identity? That's what I bring up when I think that sword is a great fit for Jon (and it's a bastard sword, too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 That's what I bring up when I think that sword is a great fit for Jon (and it's a bastard sword, too). "Red or black, a dragon is still a dragon" combined with "A coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws, but mine are long and sharp milord, as long and sharp as yours". Hmm, well they are not - Jon's "claw" is longer (hand and a half) and sharper (Valyrian steel). So I'm guessing some Targaryen, or Blackfyre, or even Lannister is going to get it based on the same wrong assumption that the Castamere lord made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 The name "Longclaw" kind of sounds like the description of a sword from someone who was warging or skinchanging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 The name "Longclaw" kind of sounds like the description of a sword from someone who was warging or skinchanging. Like this? "No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of man-claws and hardskin." I agree. Very similar :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finger Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I've always thought he must have realized. OUCH.I'm torn between excited and terrified. It's going to be the angstier thirty pages of the Epic Saga of Brooding Jon Snow, and totally not pretty. Tyrion being a giant is just a nice touch from GRRM, no need to read anything into it. The TKOLT bit was only introduced in ASOS, so it's out, Syrio's definitely dead, and I don't think anyone had even started speculating back in '98 - I was four myself, so I couldn't say :P but it seems to me that the first hint of Aegon' (potential) role in the story is the House of the Undying, but I think it's a pretty good guess it took most of the fans a while to go from 'wow, this is what the title means' to 'OMG Aegon must be alive' and fans 'guessed when the book was just out'.It could be the House of the U., but I doubt the latter because that's more of a series of foreshadowings than a straight-out mystery. The only big mysteryes laid out in the first two books are Jon's parentage (if this is the theory, then GRRM's phrasing makes it sound like R+L it's a given, saying that the fan guessed) and the PtwP (I'll be happy if this is the theory cleared out, but that sounds like a matter for the last book).So, again, OUCH. The weirdly damaged corpse of Aegon was presented in AGOT. It shook me since the first read. The rest are theories going around; you may agree or else. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finger Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Who was entitled to proclaim Aegon I the king? :P :angry:(but this is off topic...) Well, I think we agree, then. NO ONE did so, because Aegon had no need of that. Wy should or could anyone legitimize Lord Snow? He has no need of that, he has already seized the power. His only problem is not having been killed, and the sort. Eta. Who crowned old Bonny? He was no bastard but, did anyone dare put his forebears down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Like this? "No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of man-claws and hardskin." I agree. Very similar :) Exactly. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Yes, but the rest of that was "...and filled the air with sweetness." Some jump to the conclusion that is symbolism from Martin for love. But my eyes were opened to an alternative, when I read this thread here. "Sweetness" and the word "sweet" has not been used in the duration of this story for good or positive things. Just the opposite. I don't agree, as it can be a coin flip. You see, "love is sweet, dear Ned . . . " so it is also used positively, and directly related to love. If you look for something, be sure to look for the other side as well. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Yes, but the rest of that was "...and filled the air with sweetness." Some jump to the conclusion that is symbolism from Martin for love. But my eyes were opened to an alternative, when I read this thread here. "Sweetness" and the word "sweet" has not been used in the duration of this story for good or positive things. Just the opposite.And in Daenerys's arc, the connotations associate with sweetness can be negative, especially if Jon is the rightful heir to the throne. And if Jon fulfills the Azor Ahai or PTWP prophesies, then it counts against her. And in the scene where Jorah gives Daenerys the peach from the western wall, it was really sweet, so that count against her as a result and for me it is a foreshadowing that she'll die at the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
binhorde Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I don't agree, as it can be a coin flip. You see, "love is sweet, dear Ned . . . " so it is also used positively, and directly related to love. If you look for something, be sure to look for the other side as well. ;) And what happened to Lyanna? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 The dream is a twisted mix of memory and nightmare, as Ned puts it. I believe it's Cersei, looking quite in a sour mood. This is probably both an author wink to the 'educated' reader who's well aware of Cersei's feelings toward Rhaegar and the visual result of Ned's jumbled mind after all the Cersei related havoc in his life ;) Oh thats right, it's from Neds dream perception, so it could be Cersei, but, would they be sitting in the same box? I had imagined that all the families had their own private sitting areas, and perhaps a friend was sitting with Lyanna. Anyway, thanks as always for producing such gems. :bowdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Oh thats right, it's from Neds dream perception, so it could be Cersei, but, would they be sitting in the same box? I had imagined that all the families had their own private sitting areas, and perhaps a friend was sitting with Lyanna. Anyway, thanks as always for producing such gems. :bowdown:I think the scene have Cersei and Lyanna sitting next to each other for a reason; to show that Rhaegar picked Lyanna over her because he knew Cersei's true nature. And I am certain that Rhaegar didn't want Cersei because she was cruel and vindictive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I think the scene have Cersei and Lyanna sitting next to each other for a reason; to show that Rhaegar picked Lyanna over her because he knew Cersei's true nature. And I am certain that Rhaegar didn't want Cersei because she was cruel and vindictive. Agreed, and you know my theory that he was as much responsible for turning her down as his father. Regarding Robert: A question I've always had, is as much Robert goes on about Lyanna, had Ned brought her back, (absent baby of course), would he have still married her? When did he agree to marry Cersei? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfking007 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Marriage with Cersei was arranged after the sacking and Lyanna's death. If Lyanna had lived I don't think marrying Robert would be an option because of Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whatever Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Regarding Robert: A question I've always had, is as much Robert goes on about Lyanna, had Ned brought her back, (absent baby of course), would he have still married her?When did he agree to marry Cersei?It's said somewhere in AGOT that he didn't want to marry after Lyanna's death, but JonArryn made him - he was a king and needed heir. I believe he would've married her, BTW, and ended up hating her because she wasn't like the huge expectations he had made up in his mind. Robert was in love with the idea of Lyanna, Ned's perfect sister, not with Lyanna herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Wolf Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Yes, but the rest of that was "...and filled the air with sweetness." Some jump to the conclusion that is symbolism from Martin for love. But my eyes were opened to an alternative, when I read this thread here. "Sweetness" and the word "sweet" has not been used in the duration of this story for good or positive things. Just the opposite.like when Tyrion said "give me sweet lies, and keep your bitter truths" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 An excellent observation! The symbolism of the blue rose is very deep and is explored in this thread:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/82623-jon-snow-and-the-blue-winter-rosetta-stone/The blue rose can only be a personal sigil. Jon will choose the same because it honors his mother. To be sure it also honors his birth father, but that will be as much a problem since it could lead to breaking at least two parts of his Night Watch oath. Then again it will more than amusing if turns out that as Lord Commander he has the authority to release himself or perhaps has that authority with the concurrence of the other officers; which means at this point Ser Denys and possibly Yarwick, as Cotter Pike is unlikely to come back from Hardhome, and Marsh is a traitor. He will get the consent of Ser Denys if needed, because Jon is the son of a greater house (recall Samwell's conversation with Ser Denys from ASoS---the news that Jon is the Targaryen heir will send Ser Denys all kinds of ways).Other than that, from the day he was born his house sigil has been the three headed dragon, red on black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 It's said somewhere in AGOT that he didn't want to marry after Lyanna's death, but JonArryn made him - he was a king and needed heir. I believe he would've married her, BTW, and ended up hating her because she wasn't like the huge expectations he had made up in his mind. Robert was in love with the idea of Lyanna, Ned's perfect sister, not with Lyanna herself.If Lyanna had survived Jon's birth, Robert would not have had the time to develop that hatred, save for the few seconds it would take him to die after she put a knife in his heart. You don't seriously imagine that she would not take her revenge for Rhaegar's death at Robert's hands do you? If so reread the story Meera tells Bran about the Harrenhall Tourney and the "she-wolf". (ASoS when they are stopped at the small abandoned holdfast on the way North to the Nightfort.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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