R + L = J v 69

[Ygrain]

ETA@Ygrain: I think we have covered that the KG can leave the king if they can absolutely keep that time to a minimum. Running to the lever and running back on the shortest path would probably be just about in the scope of the vow. Setting up camp somewhere totally else is much more problematic.

I'm not saying that it is not problematic, but on the other hand, as long as it serves the king's protection and cannot be arranged in any other way, they are still doing their duty.

If one Wylla with her child arrives to her family at Starfall, no-one would ever think that the child is actually a hidden Targaryen. If Lyanna is found and the reason of her state revealed, everyone will look for the child. Two KG by themselves will be overpowered, and sending in more troops is an immense risk to the secret.

Absolutely, its a very different set of circumstances.

So, the KG leaving the king temporarily to pull the lever is alright, but Arthur Dayne leaving temporarily to prevent the rebels entering the tower is not?

[Black Crow]

No it isn't. Not if they thought it was their best chance to protect the king.

Also, is there any reason to assume the hypothetical separation of Jon from his KG was anything other than temporary? Ran speculates that Jon was sent to Starfall because of Lyanna's illness. Perhaps the KG received word that a group of rebels was headed for the tower and they sent Jon away as a precaution. If you hear that baby-killing rebels are headed for your location, it might make sense to send the newborn king somewhere else.

Why stay with at the tower with Lyanna? Because of what she knew; i.e., that Jon existed in the first place, that he is legitimate, and she probably knew his location.

Oh come on, its their duty to protect the King and that means at least one of them has to be by his side. If ultimately that means cutting his mother's throat to protect such a secret then it only takes one of them not all all three of them. Somebody needs to be with the King and that brings us back to the central contradiction that you can't use the presence of the Kingsgard at the Tower as proof that Jon is legitimate if Jon isn't there.

[Ygrain]

Oh come on, its their duty to protect the King and that means at least one of them has to be by his side.

Nope. If the king is an average-looking guy on the run and his last remaining KG is an unusually tall man whose presence would immediately be noted, then the best way to protect the king is not to be with him and get the pursuers off the track.

If ultimately that means cutting his mother's throat to protect such a secret then it only takes one of them not all all three of them.

You are seriously suggesting that they should have slit Lyanna's throat and burn her body to cover all tracks leading to Jon? Gosh, I think this is too dark even for GRRM.

They would stay until Lyanna either died, or recovered enough to be transported elsewhere, in secret.

Somebody needs to be with the King and that brings us back to the central contradiction that you can't use the presence of the Kingsgard at the Tower as proof that Jon is legitimate if Jon isn't there.

Nope. If Jon is not legitimate, there is no way their presence at ToJ is protecting Viserys.

[J. Stargaryen]

The problem with the latter is that staying that far away from the king means they can't react to any unforeseen threats to his safety.

Sure, but the Targaryen dynasty ran out of ideal scenarios shortly beforehand. :)

Oh come on, its their duty to protect the King and that means at least one of them has to be by his side. If ultimately that means cutting his mother's throat to protect such a secret then it only takes one of them not all all three of them. Somebody needs to be with the King and that brings us back to the central contradiction that you can't use the presence of the Kingsgard at the Tower as proof that Jon is legitimate if Jon isn't there.

No it doesn't. You're just wrong. Again, if an exception can be made for a meeting, then one can be made for protecting the king. I'm shocked that something so obvious requires repeating.

If the KG were acting in Jon's interests, specifically as the king, then that points to his legitimacy as much as anything else. Again, why are people treating this Starfall hypothetical as anything other than a temporary arrangement? I'm sure the logical assumption is that they intended to join up with Jon as soon as they were done at the ToJ.

[The guy from the Vale]

Sure, but the Targaryen dynasty ran out of ideal scenarios shortly beforehand. :)

No it doesn't. You're just wrong. Again, if an exception can be made for a meeting, then one can be made for protecting the king. I'm shocked that something so obvious requires repeating.

If the KG were acting in Jon's interests, specifically as the king, then that points to his legitimacy as much as anything else. Again, why are people treating this Starfall hypothetical as anything other than a temporary arrangement? I'm sure the logical assumption is that they intended to join up with Jon as soon as they were done at the ToJ.

Yes, but even then keeping the child nearby was the safer option. They could react to Ned and to unforeseen circumstances. Either they thought three of them could defeat Ned (they were wrong, but it was close), then they could keep the baby nearby. Or they thought they couldn't defeat Ned, then leaving with the baby was the best option. The worst option was taking their chances against Ned while not being able to deter any other threats to Jon's life.

[Mia B.]

Is there any chance the long held theory that has been confirmed has to do with a release for Winds of Winter? And yes, I know I'm being too optimistic, but one can only hope!

[The guy from the Vale]

Is there any chance the long held theory that has been confirmed has to do with a release for Winds of Winter? And yes, I know I'm being too optimistic, but one can only hope!

The hashtag was #tWoIaF, so no, I don't think it's about tWoW.

[Mia B.]

The hashtag was #tWoIaF, so no, I don't think it's about tWoW.

Thats what i figured :bang:

[J. Stargaryen]

Yes, but even then keeping the child nearby was the safer option. They could react to Ned and to unforeseen circumstances. Either they thought three of them could defeat Ned (they were wrong, but it was close), then they could keep the baby nearby. Or they thought they couldn't defeat Ned, then leaving with the baby was the best option. The worst option was taking their chances against Ned while not being able to deter any other threats to Jon's life.

Not necessarily. Once Jon was away from the ToJ and KG he was just a normal looking baby. Easy enough to hide. Allow me to reiterate that the KG would have been attempting to make the best of a bad situation. There were no more idea scenarios. Each choice would have carried with it some risk.

Wrt to Ned, it's possible that he knew about Jon, and that the KG knew that he knew. In which case, they might have deemed it necessary to eliminate him and his party. That is, if the goal for the time being was to keep his existence a secret, as Ygrain suggested.

[The guy from the Vale]

Easy enough to hide, but a lot harder to protect from physical harm.

[Ygrain]

Easy enough to hide, but a lot harder to protect from physical harm.

Jon the son of Wylla is not likely to be a target of any physical threat, though.

Come to think of it, there is a parallel in Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy: once he finds a safe spot for Arthur to be brought up, he leaves and travels wide and far, to be seen elsewhere and not give anyone any clue, while Arthur is being taken care of in a humble household where no-one would ever think to look for a king's son.

[Alia of the knife]

I don't think anyone really thought that the Starfall vs. TOJ was the gist of Rans tweet, just that it was one of many of his theories, which is fine and people like discussing the subject. The tweet apparently sparked a guessing game of which a myriad of theories might have been confirmed.

But here is a very honest question regarding Jon, his status as king and the KG.

What if the TOJ itself is a threat to his life due to the conditions?

I don't know whether Lyanna was contagious or not, but there was apparently an infection somewhere within the body. And this is the pseudo-fourteenth century and because medical knowledge was limited, people tended to evacuate, (if they could), and ask questions later.

The royal Courts would often remove themselves to the country during any outbreaks of sickness.

But, the second observation is if we read Jaimies statement to the letter, and someone has to physically be by the kings side even during a staff meeting where they are all present in the same building, (KL), or in his vicinity, then even if Jon is at the TOJ, none of them are at his side.

All three of them are still outside confronting Ned. What if someone in Neds party, (like Reed), sneaked into the back while all the fighting was going on?

A third consideration is that while Aerys had other KG with him at KL, how is it that Rhaegar had Arthur and Whent unless so ordered by Aerys himself to follow Rhaegar who is only the CP?

Are they with Rhaegar at the TOJ because the king ordered they remain with him at all times, or are they with him because they made a choice?

They didn't go with him when he went to Summerhall.

[The guy from the Vale]

Jon the son of Wylla is not likely to be a target of any physical threat, though.

Come to think of it, there is a parallel in Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy: once he finds a safe spot for Arthur to be brought up, he leaves and travels wide and far, to be seen elsewhere and not give anyone any clue, while Arthur is being taken care of in a humble household where no-one would ever think to look for a king's son.

The problem there is threefold - they need to find Wylla later, make sure she doesn't get ambushed by wild animals or robbers, and they are compromising his perceived legitimacy - they are breaking the chain of custody.

[MtnLion]

I feel the need to chip in here, and my quote button is malfunctioning. Jon must be at the tower when Ned arrives. The crown that Lyanna wears is one link, and as she dies rose petals fall from her hand, that is the stand in for Jon. Lyanna is holding Jon when Ned makes his promise.

[The guy from the Vale]

I feel the need to chip in here, and my quote button is malfunctioning. Jon must be at the tower when Ned arrives. The crown that Lyanna wears is one link, and as she dies rose petals fall from her hand, that is the stand in for Jon. Lyanna is holding Jon when Ned makes his promise.

I agree, and made that point before ;)

[Ygrain]

I don't think anyone really thought that the Starfall vs. TOJ was the gist of Rans tweet, just that it was one of many of his theories, which is fine and people like discussing the subject. The tweet apparently sparked a guessing game of which a myriad of theories might have been confirmed.

But here is a very honest question regarding Jon, his status as king and the KG.

What if the TOJ itself is a threat to his life due to the conditions?

I don't know whether Lyanna was contagious or not, but there was apparently an infection somewhere within the body. And this is the pseudo-fourteenth century and because medical knowledge was limited, people tended to evacuate, (if they could), and ask questions later.

The royal Courts would often remove themselves to the country during any outbreaks of sickness.

But, the second observation is if we read Jaimies statement to the letter, and someone has to physically be by the kings side even during a staff meeting where they are all present in the same building, (KL), or in his vicinity, then even if Jon is at the TOJ, none of them are at his side.

All three of them are still outside confronting Ned. What if someone in Neds party, (like Reed), sneaked into the back while all the fighting was going on?

A third consideration is that while Aerys had other KG with him at KL, how is it that Rhaegar had Arthur and Whent unless so ordered by Aerys himself to follow Rhaegar?

Are they with Rhaegar at the TOJ because the king ordered they remain with him at all times, or are they with him because they made a choice?

They didn't go with him when he went to Summerhall.

I believe that especially in medieval times, the concept of wound-related infection as well as childbed fever was known through empirical observation, even though its mechanism was unknown. I don't think they would consider Lyanna contagious.

As for Dayne and Whent, I think they were assigned as Rhaegar's personal bodyguards, similarly as Arys was assigned to Myrcella or the Hound to Joffrey.

The problem there is threefold - they need to find Wylla later, make sure she doesn't get ambushed by wild animals or robbers, and they are compromising his perceived legitimacy - they are breaking the chain of custody.

That would depend on the logistics of transporting Wylla to Starfall, and if the Daynes are on it or not. If they are, things get way easier.

[Ygrain]

I feel the need to chip in here, and my quote button is malfunctioning. Jon must be at the tower when Ned arrives. The crown that Lyanna wears is one link, and as she dies rose petals fall from her hand, that is the stand in for Jon. Lyanna is holding Jon when Ned makes his promise.

That part might be figurative, though. - But you're right that extracting that promise while holding Jon would probably be way easier.

[The guy from the Vale]

Yes, things might get way easier - but they also need to rely on the Daynes staying faithful even after their deaths, which is in no way a given.

[Ygrain]

Yes, things might get way easier - but they also need to rely on the Daynes staying faithful even after their deaths, which is in no way a given.

It wasn't, but since the ToJ had to be supplied from somewhere, both with food as well as with news, they were quite probably already involved, anyway. Plus, the three KG could hardly take care of Jon solely on their own, without any material support.

[Alia of the knife]

I believe that especially in medieval times, the concept of wound-related infection as well as childbed fever was known through empirical observation, even though its mechanism was unknown. I don't think they would consider Lyanna contagious.

As for Dayne and Whent, I think they were assigned as Rhaegar's personal bodyguards, similarly as Arys was assigned to Myrcella or the Hound to Joffrey.

That would depend on the logistics of transporting Wylla to Starfall, and if the Daynes are on it or not. If they are, things get way easier.

I'm going to need the difinitive rule book for the Kingsguard. :drool:

A little like the three laws from "I Robot." My Capricorn desire for structure, understanding and implementing policy is becoming severely damaged by this series. :P

I feel the need to chip in here, and my quote button is malfunctioning. Jon must be at the tower when Ned arrives. The crown that Lyanna wears is one link, and as she dies rose petals fall from her hand, that is the stand in for Jon. Lyanna is holding Jon when Ned makes his promise.

I had the same issue with the quote function and had to switch my browser to Firefox.